Ranger: Tempest Changes

[Lonnbeimnech]

Because the core's second ability:

Tempest: ...While you are dual wielding, you can use your dexterity modifier to hit with light melee weapons. You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons.

My builds were full dex to get good reflex saves and apply dex mod to damage. I thought this was a good idea but after several ranger lives and seeing the other passes, I felt it is not competitive anymore and just gave up on the class.

Try str to damage and using a good weapon. It works much better. Maybe invest in int and use know the angles too.

[Arkai]

Try str to damage and using a good weapon. It works much better. Maybe invest in int and use know the angles too.

That's the way I was playing my melee artificer.

I say, I know that works, but i can't see the point of having two or three toons built the same way. I thought the scimitar theme could be fun since devs had designed and set it into a core ability tree, but now I think I was wrong.

In terms of efficiency you all are right in your advices: scimitars are a bad joke and it seems they will remain that way.

[Requiro]

(...)
Thanks for your thoughts and feedback.

Overall I'm not impressed by the changes. Some comments below:

Core 1 (lvl1) - Nice improvement. But in my opinion, here should be also Deflect Arrow feat.
Core 3 (lvl6) - +5 Melee Power is nice improvement for this level.
Core 4 (lvl12) - Not mention, but this is very weeks ability on this level. I suggest move Deflect Arrow on level 1 (as a extremely week ability), and put here +1[W] for off hand weapon when dual wielding. This way there is some point to go 12 Ranger level instead of only 5-6
Core 5 (lvl18) - Again. Very week ability on this level. Your improvement with 5 Melee Power is insufficient. I suggest add +5% doublestrike on off hand. This way you get 5% double strike main hand, and 10% double strike off hand. Also remain +5 melee power.
Core 6 (lvl20) - Bonus for been pure is only average. But I don't say week. What I will add is something special, unique. My suggestion is: When you kill opponent while dual wielding, you gain 5% faster attack speed for the next 5 second. Stacks 5 times. This way you can call yourself true Dervish - you start slow, but in time you are faster and faster when adrenaline rising. Not very useful for Bosses, but very nice for Trash, and flavor.

Other then Core abilities:

TIER 1
Improved Defense - ok improvement.
Acrobatic – ok too, but this ability will be still not very useful.
Improved Reaction - Not mention. But I will improve this ability, on 3rd rank: No auto fail to trap when roll 1

Whirling Blades - Not mention, but this is week line. IMO this ability should be lower AP cost (1AP per tier) OR give you something more then only +1 to-hit/dmg. (maybe +1 extra damage for off hand, when you use light weapon?)

TIER 2
Improved Dodge - Not mention, but maybe you should consider drop feat requirement?
Action Boosts - Good improvement. As a side note, it’s sad that we must choice between two great abilities, while in other Ranger Trees are only flavor Boosts.

TIER 3
Critical Mastery - Good move to combine 2 most unimpressive abilities in Tree. But Combine together are still not very useful. Maybe change it to Dual wielding only, and 3rd rank give off hand +1 critical multiplier, if it's light weapon ?
Improved Mobility - Not mention, but again, just like in Improved Dodge, maybe you consider drop feat requirement?
Storm Dancer - Nice new ability. Add strait DPS, but sadly no flavor.

TIER 4
Elaborate Parry - Bad move. While you made effort to improve useless mechanic in this ability, your remove all fun and usefulness by longer cool down. My suggest is to lower in down to 90/75/60 second.
The Growing Storm - Not mention, but this ability need improvement: Stacks should not fade away all together. If you must, lower the stack duration to 3 second.
Storm Tempest - Same as Storm Dancer.

TIER 5 - Should be the most powerful abilities, because you can have only one T5.
Evasive Dance - Not mention, but IMO Require of Elaborate Parry should be removed.
A Thousand Cuts - Not impressed by the changes. You turn very situational ability that almost noone uses, to ability that still noone will use. T5 ability and 90 second cooldown? This is very unattractive. I suggest other direction, something like this: While dual wielding for the next 10 second, you gain: +1 [W] with your main and off hand weapons, +10/+20/+30 double strike and +5/+10/+15 % faster attack speed. Cooldown: 90/70/50 second.
Dual Perfection - On the other hand, this is very good new ability (I’m surprised…)
Whirling Blades - And this is again very week ability for the T5. 2 AP for 3 dmg? Com'on guys. Other classes have, regeneration, critical, and much more bonuses. And we get 3 dmg, for 2 AP? Very sad… I suggest another bonus to off hand weapon: While dualwielding off hand weapons get +1 critical threat, if it's light weapon.

Overall, if you not consider heavily changes to your ideas, this tree will not be balance with other classes. I fear, what you guys will propose to AA changes...

[Eth]

That's the way I was playing my melee artificer.

I say, I know that works, but i can't see the point of having two or three toons built the same way. I thought the scimitar theme could be fun since devs had designed and set it into a core ability tree, but now I think I was wrong.

In terms of efficiency you all are right in your advices: scimitars are a bad joke and it seems they will remain that way.

So you want to play a flavor build (due to using sub-optimal weapons), but you also want it to be top-tier?

I should have asked for some Greatclub love during the barbarian pass I guess...

[cru121]

Greatclub love

I'm still hoping for Primitive Weapon Mastery in a redesigned Half-Orc tree.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I'm still hoping for Primitive Weapon Mastery in a redesigned Half-Orc tree.

Iconic troll barbarian, with greatclub mastery in the racial tree.

[Eth]

Iconic troll barbarian, with greatclub mastery in the racial tree.

Comes with cosmetic loincloth outfit.

Turbine pls.

[Arkai]

So you want to play a flavor build (due to using sub-optimal weapons), but you also want it to be top-tier?

I should have asked for some Greatclub love during the barbarian pass I guess...

Nope. Devs designed a scimitar theme and I wanted to explore it.

And as I said before, I didn't want a paladin 2.0, just a toon playable.

[barecm]

Given that Stalker does not have a Crit extension and Tempest does not have a Crit extension is it save to assume the design decision to leave Rangers as the only melee class with out a Crit extension of some kind has been made and is final?

Barbarian = Critical Rage, Death Frenzy (19-20 +1)
Fighter = Keen Edge
Paladins = Holy Sword
Monks = Earth Stance (19-20 +1), Ninja Mastery, Staff Spec, Violence Begets Violence (not very good but its something)
Rogues = Knife spec, Staff Spec
Bards = Swashbuckler, Exploit Weakness
Ranger = Nothing

This... a thousand times over and over again. I wish the devs would stop being so stubborn on this. It is not like all the other classes don't have it, it is everyone has it except rangers on the martial side. We are still waiting on a reasonable explanation beyond you can play what you want to play. That is a second grader type response. Please let us know why you are neglecting this from any ranger tree. We, the customer base, the ones that fund this game with our money, are asking for a answer.

[Warrax23]

Basically all anyone in Dev has to do is answer this simple question. Do we really want people to play this class. With the changes that have been proposed so far, the answer is no, they are simply outshined by Pally, Barb, Bard, Warlock. So you either need to stop wasting time goofing around with Rangers, or make them playable beyond a splash. There is no reason they shouldn't have a crit increase like the other classes, but put it in high in the core, and make it select light weapons. Also enough with the burst dps for rangers, if you go by rangers in the DnD world, they were pretty fierce, not just.. yay I'm a subpar everything. Right now I have no interest in rangers after this pass goes live, it's weak, so therefor I think you're wasting your time and ours. Sorry for being honest and blunt about it. Bottom line, rangers will not be fun after this pass for me and the few guildies who have been waiting for this pass forever, if that's the currency we're talking about.

[Grailhawk]

15/5 Ranger
43 AP Tempest (30 + 13)
23 AP Stalker (Killer)
11 AP Knight of the Chalice (Divine Might)
03 AP Human

20 Ranger
45 AP Tempest
24 AP Stalker (Killer + Sneak Attack IV)
08 AP Harper
03 AP Human

Deltas are
Holy Sword, Zeal, Divine Favor
+1 Crit, +1 Threat, +10% Double Strike
vs
Ram's Might, Graceful Death, Whirlwind, Dervish, Sneak Attack IV
+10% Offhand Proc, +30 Melee Power, +5% Double Strike, +1d6 Sneak Attack

10% Double Strike vs 10% Offhand Proc and 5% Double Strike is close enough to call a wash.
1d6 Sneak Attack vs 1d8 Light damage is a wash

30 Melee Power vs +1 Crit and Threat is a clear win for Paladins Ranger would need with out changing any AP spent a +20-30 MP bonus just to start making this a wash comparison.


Suggestion to bring this in to balance
Option 1
Whirlwind +15% DS +10 MP
Dervish +25 MP

Option 2
Another option to bring this close is to add
+5/5 to Whirlwind
A Dex based Divine Might/Know the Angles clicky to Tempest or Stalker
And +15 MP to Mark of the Hunter in Stalker

[Lonnbeimnech]

15/5 Ranger
43 AP Tempest (30 + 13)
23 AP Stalker (Killer)
11 AP Knight of the Chalice (Divine Might)
03 AP Human

20 Ranger
45 AP Tempest
24 AP Stalker (Killer + Sneak Attack IV)
08 AP Harper
03 AP Human

Deltas are
Holy Sword, Zeal, Divine Favor
+1 Crit, +1 Threat, +10% Double Strike
vs
Ram's Might, Graceful Death, Whirlwind, Dervish, Sneak Attack IV
+10% Offhand Proc, +30 Melee Power, +5% Double Strike, +1d6 Sneak Attack

10% Double Strike vs 10% Offhand Proc and 5% Double Strike is close enough to call a wash.
1d6 Sneak Attack vs 1d8 Light damage is a wash

30 Melee Power vs +1 Crit and Threat is a clear win for Paladins Ranger would need with out changing any AP spent a +20-30 MP bonus just to start making this a wash comparison.


Suggestion to bring this in to balance
Option 1
Whirlwind +15% DS +10 MP
Dervish +25 MP

Option 2
Another option to bring this close is to add
+5/5 to Whirlwind
A Dex based Divine Might/Know the Angles clicky to Tempest or Stalker
And +15 MP to Mark of the Hunter in Stalker

One big difference is that a ranger can swap to a bow and use many shot with improved precise shot. If a paladin wanted to do that, he basically has to not be a melee toon.

There's 2 big problems with the ranger.

1. Players like to make flavor builds and then complain they don't work as well as min/maxed builds.

2. Players like to use half of a rangers capacity and then complain that it isn't as good as 100% of some other class.

[btolson]

Core Abilities

Shield of Whirling Steel: While dual wielding, 2 Shield bonus to Armor Class, Physical Resistance Rating, and Magical Resistance Rating. This increases by +1 for each additional Tempest Core Ability you acquire. If you are a level 1 character, you gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat until you reach character level 2. (Two Weapon Fighting is granted permanently if you take a second Ranger level).

Curious, will this stack with the Two Weapon Defense feat? Wiki doesn't state the bonus type and I don't remember it explicitly, but would have thought it was shield bonus as well.

Whirlwind: +5% melee doublestrike chance when dual wielding, +5 Melee Power.

This is too close in power to core4. Just so there's no confusion, doublestrikes cannot proc offhands, so this is +2.5% base damage, +5 mp. Bearing in mind that 1mp < 1% damage, this is only expected to be a tad better than the +5% base damage in core4. Needs strong improving to entice people into 18 levels of the class, since all the free feats basically stop at 11 and ranger spells are cruddy except a few at level 1.

Comparatively, barbarian FB core5 (Death Frenzy) offers +10% base damage +10 mp +14 bane damage +4 STR, which is in the neighborhood of 4x as powerful. Obviously FB should be better than than tempest by some degree, but not 4x.

Dervish: Passive: +4 Dexterity. +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand when dual wielding. +10 Melee Power, Physical Resist Rating, and Magical Resist Rating while wearing light armor or cloth.

This will probably need a bit of an upgrade as well. Going back to Death Frenzy, this is only a tad better and yet it is a capstone.

[btolson]

Tier Four
Elaborate Parry: For the next 6/12/18 seconds, you gain Dodge, Maximum Dodge and maximum dexterity bonus to light armor, equal to your Dexterity Modifier. Cooldown: 90 seconds

• The old Elaborate Parry didn't have a good fit anywhere for anyone. It wasn't a good "panic button", since you had to build up charges. Getting to maximum charges was possible but a chore, and you couldn't keep them for very long. This ability is now a strong panic button for dedicated Dexterity builds, capable of reaching very high Dodge for brief periods. It's still potentially useful for other builds as long as they include moderate Dexterity in their overall build. This also builds into the theme of Tempest as an generally mobile and evasive melee combatant.

I think this is a general success in design, but should start out stronger* and compete with uncanny dodge better. Others have suggested using dex score instead of mod, but this will create too much deviation between different builds and really push away from STR viability. I think you want to introduce a constant instead, and why not make it ranger-level based at the same time. Suggested Revision:

Elaborate Parry: For the next 6/12/18 seconds, you gain Dodge, Maximum Dodge and maximum dexterity bonus to light armor, equal to your Dexterity Modifier plus your ranger level. Cooldown: 90 seconds

Edit: I will need to have a look at Ranger standing dodge, but it may be appropriate to add an additional passive +5% dodge here, similar to TA.

Addy Edit: In case the reason for it to "start out stronger" isn't apparent, this is a t4 ability, which means you can take it as early as level 6. Your dex mod at level 6 is going to make this ability look like total **** compared to uncanny dodge.

[barecm]

One big difference is that a ranger can swap to a bow and use many shot with improved precise shot. If a paladin wanted to do that, he basically has to not be a melee toon.

There's 2 big problems with the ranger.

1. Players like to make flavor builds and then complain they don't work as well as min/maxed builds.

2. Players like to use half of a rangers capacity and then complain that it isn't as good as 100% of some other class.

1. SOME do. If you look at the amount of warlocks, rogues, barbs and pallys now compared to prior to this whole class revamp deal, you would also say some, but most choose the better class. There are still PLENTY of multiclass options for folks. Giving rangers an equivalent to paly lvl 4 spell or crit/vorpal range expansion is not going to change that. In fact, it may create more.

2. Using 100% of a gimped class is still not going to make it better. It just makes it twice as frustratingly lacking.

[btolson]

Tier Two
Improved Dodge: This hasn't seen a change yet, but I'd like to make the case for removing the light/no armor restriction. The underlying feat (dodge) does not have such a requirement, and I think it is much better to simply let the armor's MDB control whether it can achieve any benefit from this enhancement. It is fine for abilities to grant +MDB to light armor alone, but if your are able to get +MDB to heavier armor from somewhere else then I don't see why you shouldn't be able to utilize it here.

[Grailhawk]

One big difference is that a ranger can swap to a bow and use many shot with improved precise shot. If a paladin wanted to do that, he basically has to not be a melee toon..

My comparison is a 15/5 Paladin vs 20 Ranger the free feats given by 5 levels of Ranger put the paladin 2 feat way from manyshot I would expect this kind of Paladin to have the following Feat if he wants the manyshot option.

Point Blank Shot
ITWF
Precision
Manyshot
GTWF
IC: Melee
Max/Empower Healing
Quicken

Order is subject to change but its close enough.

20 Ranger would have
Point Blank Shot
Precision
IC: Melee
IC: Ranged
Max/Empower Healing
Quicken
And 2 Free feats

The paladin build that 20 Ranger should be compared to is just as much a switch hitter as the Ranger though the extra ranged feat do favor the Ranger a slight bit during manyshot.

[Vargouille]

Some more general comments:

1. We're still balancing numbers and doing DPS testing. If your only concern with changes thus far is DPS, that's arguably the easiest possible concern for us to address and one we're going to explicitly spend more time looking into. It's just not the #1 priority for the design of the tree, nor should it be. It's very, very important. But design and balance are not one and the same thing.
2. We have not found high level STR builds to be behind DEX builds. There are intentional tradeoffs, but going for Strength is not losing you damage. Strength Tempests do not require more explicit support to be an equally viable build to DEX, as far as we can tell. We're happy to hear about play or tests showing DEX is doing more damage than STR builds, if that's what you are seeing.
   
   • It's no accident that there's a few options that reward Dexterity but not Strength. Strength is rewarding in of itself, for those builds. Only Tempest and Graceful Death directly affects damage differences between STR and DEX, and all they really do is let DEX theoretically match STR for DPS.
   • Getting Dexterity improves nearly all Strength builds, for Reflex saves if nothing else. The reverse is not nearly as true - Strength isn't really useful for most DEX builds.
   • Some of the details depends on your other choices, and other details such as party composition, possible multiclass options, etc. But even just taking into account things such as Primal Rage, Strength values are just higher than Dexterity.
   
   
3. Holy Sword changes are pending. It's fine to bring up class vs. class debates, but right now we're not going to spend excessive worry over Paladin/Ranger multiclass builds. (This of course isn't the thread for discussing Holy Sword changes.)
4. Some other AP costs may get reduced.
5. Fortification bypass is an interesting idea.

There seems to be very little dodge in this tree other than the "panic dodge" so are these all the abilities or just the changed added ones ?

To reiterate, this is only the changes compared to the existing tree.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Tempest_enhancements

A final thought on Tempest (which I don't expect to change) is that it feels like there's few activated abilities compared to Deepwood Stalker. Flavour-wise, that strikes me as a little off.

I appreciate posts that go against the grain.

Question: Some places indicate the Whirlwind Doublestrike bonus is Enhancement typed. Meaning it does not stack with items. I am not sure if that information is out of date or not, but can you please verify this stacks with items? No one wants a core (level 18 core at that) which is obsolete by gear almost as soon as it shows up.

Could you please be more specific on where you are seeing a bonus type of Enhancement? To the best of my knowledge that's never been true, nor stated anywhere, but there might be some text I'm personally unaware of.

Question though, for Dance of Death, was any consideration given to the "reach" involved?

We've done an examination of this distance, yes. It would require a very large amount of work to change, and it's not clear how desirable changing something this would ultimately be.

perhaps it could be made to last 20s with a 30s cd, similar to a regular boost. Then it would at least be less micromanagement to utilize it at reduced effectiveness, while having the exact same uptime/downtime ratio it has now.

General question for the audience:
Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

Theoretically, consider changing other abilities by multiplying both cooldown and duration. (Note that this is a strict loss of DPS for actual attacks that grant +[W], but obviously some players may prefer that playstyle.)

Coccoon is a Tier 1 ability! It's easy to twist and is tbh a REQUIRED twist for many characters!

Rangers don't get anything even close to Coccoon

It's true: Heroic Ranger enhancements, most of which are available by level ~5, generally aren't similar in power to Epic Destiny level 20+ abilities like Cocoon.

[By Design]

I fail to see the reason for adding elemental damage to the class (storm dancer). I object to it for the same reason I've objected to the cold damage in war chanter. Nothing about "bard" says cold damage, and nothing about "ranger" says electrical damage. It would have made an equal amount of (little) sense to call it "igniting a spark" and make it fire damage. If you want to add a melee power based damage proc to rangers, why not type it like you have done with the barb ravager damage? Why the urge to tie it to an element?

Rangers have always had more affinity for elements than other classes, though it's waxed and waned at times. However, that's not the most relevant piece here: This isn't Ranger, this is Tempest. Like Warchanter, it's allowed flavor and distinctions separate from the class itself.

Am I wrong here?

Dual Perfection: (2 AP) Your off hand weapon now adds your full attribute damage modifier. (For instance, if you have 30 Strength, you'll gain +10 damage with your offhand weapon, like your main hand weapon.)

normally you get half your modifier. so if you have 30 str thats 10/2 = 5. so if your now getting the full 10, then the benefit for 2ap is 5 damage. seems expensive for a tier 5 and underpowered. perhaps if it doubled your modifier for both hands. giving main hand 2x10 and off hand 2x10/2 = 10 then it would be a bit better for 2ap.

Fairly sure you're wrong here.

1. 30 DEX/STR is something you might actually have at level 12, when you get the ability. We'd expect high level characters to likely have 50, and characters really pushing the limit to be closer to 80-100 (or more, for STR). The example using "30" is just to help explain the math, not an expectation your or I should have for end game.
2. 5 damage for 2 AP is a decent deal regardless.
3. Tier 5 abilities are not automatically each promoted to super awesomeness. This is not a "feature of being in tier 5". It's a good ability, worth the cost, amongst other abilities. (This isn't to say Ranger balance is done or perfect, but not every tier 5 ability needs to look like an Epic Moment to be "worthy" of being in tier 5.)

Core 1 (lvl1) - Nice improvement. But in my opinion, here should be also Deflect Arrow feat.
Core 3 (lvl6) - +5 Melee Power is nice improvement for this level.
Core 4 (lvl12) - Not mention, but this is very weeks ability on this level. I suggest move Deflect Arrow on level 1 (as a extremely week ability), and put here +1[W] for off hand weapon when dual wielding. This way there is some point to go 12 Ranger level instead of only 5-6

We realize that some players don't value Deflect Arrows very highly, but we'll just have to disagree on that point. Especially with the upgrades in Tempest, it's a very useful ability. We cannot in good conscience make it available to all rangers for 1 AP. That's basically making it a class feature for all characters with 1 level of Ranger. That's unfair and unbalanced (and arguably pretty rude to Monks).

Whirling Blades

- Not mention, but this is week line. IMO this ability should be lower AP cost (1AP per tier) OR give you something more then only +1 to-hit/dmg. (maybe +1 extra damage for off hand, when you use light weapon?)

This is already better than most similar lines in other martial trees, since you get to attack more with Tempests.

TIER 5 - Should be the most powerful abilities, because you can have only one T5.

Collectively these should be powerful and include abilities that shouldn't be widely available with low commitment. Each individual tier 5 ability need not be more powerful than each other ability in the tree.

Small quality of life request can the tool tip that shows double strike be adjusted to also show off hand double strike.

Doublestrike: 32.0/35.0

It's a good idea. Thanks for bringing it up.

Curious, will this stack with the Two Weapon Defense feat? Wiki doesn't state the bonus type and I don't remember it explicitly, but would have thought it was shield bonus as well.

These will stack. Good catch on the wording, it is confusing and we'll clarify that.

[ValariusK]

One big difference is that a ranger can swap to a bow and use many shot with improved precise shot. If a paladin wanted to do that, he basically has to not be a melee toon.

There's 2 big problems with the ranger.

1. Players like to make flavor builds and then complain they don't work as well as min/maxed builds.

2. Players like to use half of a rangers capacity and then complain that it isn't as good as 100% of some other class.

Pally-15/Ranger-5 what feats are they likely to have
level 1---Precision plus feat X
Level 3 Feat Y
Level 6 Imp TWF
Level 9 Imp Crit (melee type)
Level 12 Greater TWF
Level 15 Imp Crit Ranged
Level 18 Multishot

So they're likely to have all the important ranged feats minus IPS by level 18. They can pick up IPS at level 24 if they really need it, but they're likely to use more Precise shot than IPS given their idiom.

The Pally-14/Ranger-6 variant trades away zeal for level 6 cores and two more feats. With the improvements to tempest it might become a little more prevalent. That version can accomodate IPS with no further degradation in Melee ability.

[barecm]

Pally-15/Ranger-5 what feats are they likely to have
level 1---Precision plus feat X
Level 3 Feat Y
Level 6 Imp TWF
Level 9 Imp Crit (melee type)
Level 12 Greater TWF
Level 15 Imp Crit Ranged
Level 18 Multishot

So they're likely to have all the important ranged feats minus IPS by level 18. They can pick up IPS at level 24 if they really need it, but they're likely to use more Precise shot than IPS given their idiom.

The Pally-14/Ranger-6 variant trades away zeal for level 6 cores and two more feats. With the improvements to tempest it might become a little more prevalent. That version can accomodate IPS with no further degradation in Melee ability.

Also, if your ranged, you only need 14 paly since zeal is useless for bow users. So, you get free manyshot and free ITWF and frees up feats you can use for IPS . I know this is not the build you are using and foregoes zeal for melee, but just saying if you went more ranged you can still do both well... better than pure rangers.