Ranger: Tempest Changes

[FestusHood]

My thoughts on this: if those are the changes for Tempest tree, you can just spare the effort because nobody is gonna use it after all. This is not what the game has turned about.

I love Tempests and played like 6 ePL with a pure 20 ranger using random scimitars from eveningstar challenges. I love flavour, and I didn't care the absolutely lack of GOOD named scimitars (where's the CITW one? Or maybe the one from MOD or FOT, etc?), but If we are getting a pass, we need some reason to TR into a ranger again, and this tree is not a good one.

Please, add scimitar mastery (range, multipliers) at 18 or 20.

As much as i think scimitars need some love in the game, my ranger character spent his time building up a collection of rapiers, so i would hate to see them left out.

[Grailhawk]

The developers have already made a serious mistake with turning bard, paladin, rogue and barbarian into munchkin classes. Despite all of the warnings that were given, they did it once, twice, thrice, no, count it, FOUR TIMES IN A ROW.

So why make a second, even more serious mistake by stopping halfway? You're too far down the road of boosting classes to stop now, unless you want to entrench a first rate/second rate class division for years to come. And it will be years to come, give the pace at which this exercise is proceeding. When is the next ranger pass scheduled for, I wonder?

I'll say it again; unless you plan on busting out the nerf bat and taking quite a few swings with it at those classes you already did, these 'improvements' are just a big waste of everyone's time. There is just no excuse for leaving rangers, or for that matter any other class, so far behind.

I agree with the sentiment of this post if all classes are going to have awesome DPS then lets give it to all classes.

That said nerfing everything (especially crit profile extensions) is a much better choice IMO.

[Kielbasa]

So far the thing that I notice the most for both tempest and deepwood stalker is that very little is focused on(tied to) Strength or Dexterity meaning you have a greater incentive to use the harper tree for Intelligence and know the angles. So far there are no direct bonuses to bows so most ranged min maxers will use the harper + repeater combo. Melee rangers will end up mostly kopesh or war hammer to take advantage of mornh with legendary dreadnought. To combat the issue with bows not being up to snuff manyshot and doubleshot need to be rebalanced for the new repeater age. For melee the tier 3/4 abilities and lv18 cores need to be good enough that a 12 point splash in harper is debatable not a forgone conclusion. Currently Whirlwind and Mark of the Hunted are both not good enough to make it a debate.

[Arkai]

As much as i think scimitars need some love in the game, my ranger character spent his time building up a collection of rapiers, so i would hate to see them left out.

Yup, epic named scimitars are blatantly bad, while they have released new bastard swords or quarterstaves with very competitive profiles.

[Thar]

That is very simple logic. Shouldn't be all enhancement been reduced to one AP then? I am sure we could find one player for every enhancement who would take it at one AP per tier, but not two.

any 3 level enhancement should be 1/1/1 as 2/2/2 is way too much for any normal enhancement.

[Lorianus]

Then tell me why you think it should be so expensive ? And don't get me started with powercreep.

That isn't a reason at all.

It's a very powerful enhancement. More powerful enhancements cost more AP per tier, less powerfull enhancements cost less AP per tier. It's not like the Devs role a dice when they make enhancement trees.
(And you need to spend 10 AP in order to reach the capstone anyway, so it's only a problem for mulitclass builds not pure builds. Multiclassing is fine, but the trees should not be build for it.)
"Improved Parry: Gain +3/+6/+10 PRR when dual wielding" would be a better candiate for an AP cost reduction IMHO.

[blerkington]

I agree with the sentiment of this post if all classes are going to have awesome DPS then lets give it to all classes.

That said nerfing everything (especially crit profile extension is a much better choice) IMO.

Hi,

Yes, nerfing (or in a perfect world, not adding those overblown bonuses in the first place) is also my preferred option.

It would also remove the need for rebalancing the content because properly built, geared and played characters have become so strong relative to higher difficulty settings.

It would also be far less work overall. Outcome: less work, more challenge, fairer game.

But hell, what do we know?

Thanks.

[Zoda]

I kinda like it, but compared to barb and paladin this is still way underpowered. 15 paladin/5 ranger is still a way stronger tempest than a pure ranger, and that is wrong.

What tempest got in terms of offense is 20 melee power and Dual Perfection which combined with the Stalker Changes is still not much (thousand cuts is still frustrating, and without doing any math my guess is that the dps it provides in 90 sec is not up to stuff even like Fist of Iron which is a t2 ability). I really don't care much about the defensive benefits you gave them. I mean it's nice and all but that's not where the class was really lacking. Cheap haste boost is a nice low hanging fruit especially with the extra feats.

Please compare Storm Dancer/Storm Tempest to Holy Retribution (just melee portion on retribution obviously). Yeah, no. No.

Also, I know you said that the Arcane Archer tree will come in later patch, but it's really hard to evaluate a class revamp when we only see 66% of it. I think it'd be really beneficial if you posted your raw idea about it, just so we get a better perspective, even if you end up not being able to code something you wanted, we could get a grip on the planned power level.

Overall I'd be way happier seeing barb and paladin nerfed to this level than the other way around, this feels alright.

[ValariusK]

My thoughts on this: if those are the changes for Tempest tree, you can just spare the effort because nobody is gonna use it after all. This is not what the game has turned about.

I love Tempests and played like 6 ePL with a pure 20 ranger using random scimitars from eveningstar challenges. I love flavour, and I didn't care the absolutely lack of GOOD named scimitars (where's the CITW one? Or maybe the one from MOD or FOT, etc?), but If we are getting a pass, we need some reason to TR into a ranger again, and this tree is not a good one.

Please, add scimitar mastery (range, multipliers) at 18 or 20.

That's not entirely true---10 druid/4 fighter/6 ranger wolf builds will like the changes. So will 15 pally/5 rangers. But I don't think we'll see non-flavor pure or mostly pure rangers out of it, which is a crying shame.

My concept of balance is there should be a reasonably objective reason to play each class pure or mostly so. It should not be a no-brainer to only splash (2-6 levels) rangers, monks, or fighters. It should be a difficult decision with tradeoffs, pros and cons on each side.

Otherwise you wind up seeing groups full of pallys, warlocks, barbs and the occasional bard or rogue.

[Warrax23]

I'm just glad this pass so far stinks so I don't have to try out another ranger.

-Unimpressed.

[Arkai]

That's not entirely true---10 druid/4 fighter/6 ranger wolf builds will like the changes. So will 15 pally/5 rangers. But I don't think we'll see non-flavor pure or mostly pure rangers out of it, which is a crying shame.

My concept of balance is there should be a reasonably objective reason to play each class pure or mostly so. It should not be a no-brainer to only splash (2-6 levels) rangers, monks, or fighters. It should be a difficult decision with tradeoffs, pros and cons on each side.

Otherwise you wind up seeing groups full of pallys, warlocks, barbs and the occasional bard or rogue.

Yo are completely right.

I only play pure/flavour and I feel totally outcast with this proposal.

[Lorianus]

any 3 level enhancement should be 1/1/1 as 2/2/2 is way too much for any normal enhancement.

I would rather like to see one of the tier fives moved to a lower tier.

[FuryFlash]

Improved Parry: Gain +3/+6/+10 PRR when dual wielding. Cost: 2/2/2

Spiritual Bastion: While your Eldritch Aura is active, you get +3/+6/+10 PRR, and in addition you and nearby allies get a +1/+2/+3 Determination Bonus to PRR. Cost: 1/1/1

Consider these two enhancements.

Improved Parry:
+10 PRR to self
Requires dual wielding
Costs 6 AP
Tier 2 Enhancement
No pre-reqs

Spiritual Bastion:
+13 PRR to self
+3 PRR to allies
Requires Eldritch Aura
Costs 3 AP
Tier 2 Enhancement
Spiritual Defense pre-req

Comparing the two, SB is clearly superior, giving more PRR at half the cost. I believe that the Improved Parry enhancement should be reduced to 1/1/1 AP cost, considering the benefits given, in comparison to this similar Warlock enhancement, Spiritual Bastion.

Thanks,

Furyflash

[Zoda]

Tier 5: Evasive Dance: Improves your Evasion ability so on a failed Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you only take 85/70/50% damage.

Tempests absolutely get Improved Evasion.

Spend 3 AP so when you do roll a 1 on a well built character, you only get half damage. They don't get it. Good builders don't.

[Karadon_II]

I've had one of my mains, a Tempest, more or less parked a year since cumulative changes reduced his effectiveness so I'm glad a 'start' has been made on the Tempest, but it's just a start and nowhere near a viable option yet.

I think adding MRR/PRR to the Tempest Core is great but I think it should be distributed as you progress through the cores rather than having so much at Core 20. Perhaps shave 5 off the +10 PRR/MRR at Core 20 and give +1 to Core 6, +2 to Core 12 and +3 to Core 18. The highest MRR/PRR +5 bonus should still be for Core 20 to reward pures, but gives more support for those who invest deep into Ranger as well. The MRR/PRR bonuses achieved through all cores should only apply if in Light/Cloth Armour not just the bonus at Core 20. They're not needed if in heavier armours.


I like Tier 1, 2 and 3 for now but Tier 4 and Tier 5 need some work.

Elaborate Parry - Reduce cooldown
A Thousand Cuts - add offhand Doublestrike
Dual Perfection - add +1 to threat range and critical multiplier of both weapons


In general

The lack of +1 to threat range and critical multiplier that you have given other classes must be addressed. It must apply to the weapons in both hands.
All Doublestrike in the tree should count for offhand as well.
When in light/cloth and dual wielding, Tempests should have permanently increased attack speed. Probably added to Core 18?
Consider some sort of blindness effect attack against Mobs - because you're moving so fast.


Spells

This is a good time to look at the pitiful array of Ranger spells overall. There should be adequate compensation for the continued absence of a pet and it's not in the spells, that's for sure. What I'm sure was some vague attempt at trying to do that was Nature's Ally. This is curved so badly that A CR4 creature not summonable until the Ranger is 14!

Mass Longstrider is not a viable Level 4 spell either, again not available until Ranger 14 and when you consider Pally's get Zeal or Holy Sword at the same level and the fact that the majority of characters at that point have speed in their equipment... you see the point.

I like the versatility of exploring DEX as a more viable option for Rangers. As STR builds benefit from Ram's Might, I suggest +2 size bonus to DEX called "Raccoon's Reflexes".


Ranger is nowhere near where it needs to be with what was posted but I'm glad it's being worked on.

[Dreppo]

The biggest issue is that the main advantage a Ranger had over either a Barbarian or Rogue {Self-Healing potential} has completely vanished!

W.R.T. barbarian agreed, but W.R.T. rogue nothing has changed. Rogues didn't get any new self-healing in their enhancement pass. They still rely solely on pots/wands/scrolls. Only fighters are worse off than rogues for self-healing, due to fighter's lower UMD.

[ValariusK]

How to fix the problem.
Step one, figure out where you actually are.
Manufacture test characters reasonably decked out at 24th level. Use the better builds for each class posted in the forums.
For single target DPS, I suggest using Bruntsmash in Cabal for one or that giant bag of HP in tracker's trap. But hell, you're Devs right? You can make a punching bag with an arbitrarily high number of HP right?

Then find out what your Burst and sustainable DPS levels actually are for each class. Done that? Good.

Now figure out what those levels ought to be. My suggestion is that DPS single target supremacy among melees should belong to the Fighter. Why? Because the fighter has nothing else---no spells, crappy self healing, no rogue abilities to get by traps, bad saves, etc.
Second tier should be for classes that are DPS oriented for melee but lack something
Barbarians (who lack any party utility whatsoever and have ok self healing through blood strength)---in practice the wolf multiclasses are pretty similar.
Rogues (who are squishy and have worse self healing than barbs but still better than fighters but substantial utility---incidentally, I think Assasins may be about the only class that's about right presently for their dps, they're strong but have significant drawbacks
Rangers (who are about as squishy as rogues but self-heal better but have much less utility
Swashbucklers

Third tier
Paladins---why, because they have the complete package otherwise, a pally with equal dps to a ranger is overpowered.

I suggest putting 20% or so delta between tiers. If 5000 dps is ok for a fighter, than 4000 for 2nd tier and 3000 for 3rd tier should be enforced.
Then design tweak and test. Right now I don't think most folks on the forums have any confidence that you've even done step 1.

[ValariusK]

W.R.T. barbarian agreed, but W.R.T. rogue nothing has changed. Rogues didn't get any new self-healing in their enhancement pass. They still rely solely on pots/wands/scrolls. Only fighters are worse off than rogues for self-healing, due to fighter's lower UMD.

Rogues got wand/scroll mastery's cost adjusted if I recall and made considerably easier to fit into their better builds. Rogue self-healing in practice is an issue for the assassin but is not bad for the mechanic. Rogues are one of the few classes that IMO is fine from a balance perspective right now.

[Qhualor]

Rogues got wand/scroll mastery's cost adjusted if I recall and made considerably easier to fit into their better builds. Rogue self-healing in practice is an issue for the assassin but is not bad for the mechanic. Rogues are one of the few classes that IMO is fine from a balance perspective right now.

except that concentration is terrible in epics. when I did rogue past lives I just twisted Cocoon and used heal scrolls out of combat.

[Grace_ana]

Hi,

So this is the DPS tree for melee rangers, is it? It seems like a bad joke to me.

The developers have already made a serious mistake with turning bard, paladin, rogue and barbarian into munchkin classes. Despite all of the warnings that were given, they did it once, twice, thrice, no, count it, FOUR TIMES IN A ROW.

So why make a second, even more serious mistake by stopping halfway? You're too far down the road of boosting classes to stop now, unless you want to entrench a first rate/second rate class division for years to come. And it will be years to come, give the pace at which this exercise is proceeding. When is the next ranger pass scheduled for, I wonder?

I'll say it again; unless you plan on busting out the nerf bat and taking quite a few swings with it at those classes you already did, these 'improvements' are just a big waste of everyone's time. There is just no excuse for leaving rangers, or for that matter any other class, so far behind.

No amount of 'not every class needs to do DPS' rationalisation is going to cut it for this lazy and substandard retooling of rangers, especially when support classes (cough cough, bard) have already been handed such massive damage and survivability increases. And it's not like rangers can contribute a whole lot to a party besides killing things, is it?

You've blown it, and now you need to work on fixing it. Not copping out halfway. Everyone makes mistakes, and people will be glad if you make a conscientious effort to repair the damage that has been done. That would be so much better rather than damaging the game further because you are too proud to admit your mistakes, so now level the playing field, and start thinking about how you're going to rebalance content afterwards.

Thanks.

This is pretty much where I'm at for both ranger trees so far. The pass was supposed to rebalance the classes so that none of them were severely ahead or behind any of the others. These ranger trees do not come close. You can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. So if this is an actual balance pass as stated, make it about equivalent in utility, survivability, and DPS to the others. If it is behind in one of those categories, you need to make up for it elsewhere, but it shouldn't at all be bottom-barrel in any of them, especially DPS. A class that has bad DPS is a class no one wants to play, period. This is an MMO, after all.