Ranger: Tempest Changes

[Vargouille]

Upcoming Changes to Tempest
Hi! As some of you probably know we're working on updating Ranger. Here's our current thinking on Tempest changes.

Goals
We want to bring up Tempest DPS and durability to be more competitive with modern balance (for both classes and monsters). We also wanted to balance rewards for Dexterity Tempest builds - Strength and Dexterity builds should have a reasonable place after these changes. This is also a place we're working to make sure light armor melee characters can be competitive. Some of the changes simultaneously flesh Tempest out with additional flavor.


(Abilities in Orange cost 2 AP per rank.)

Core Abilities

• Shield of Whirling Steel: While dual wielding, 2 Shield bonus to Armor Class, Physical Resistance Rating, and Magical Resistance Rating. This increases by +1 for each additional Tempest Core Ability you acquire. If you are a level 1 character, you gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat until you reach character level 2. (Two Weapon Fighting is granted permanently if you take a second Ranger level).
• Graceful Death: While you are dual wielding, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with light melee weapons, +5 Melee Power.
• Whirlwind: +5% melee doublestrike chance when dual wielding, +5 Melee Power, +5 Incorporeality (stacking).
• Dervish: Passive: +4 Dexterity. +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand when dual wielding. +10 Melee Power, Physical Resist Rating, and Magical Resist Rating while wearing light armor or cloth.

Tier One

• Improved Defense: Shield of Whirling Steel grants +1/2/3 Armor Class, Physical Resist, and Magical Resistance. If you possess Deflect Arrows it can trigger once every 4/3/2 seconds.
• Acrobatic: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump and Tumble. Rank 3: You gain +1 Reflex Saving Throws.
  
  • Removed: +2/+4/+6 Armor Class while tumbling.

Tier Three

• Critical Accuracy: Removed from tree, functionality combined into Critical Mastery.
• Critical Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) +1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits.
• Storm Dancer: (2 AP) Stance: Absorb 15% of Electrical damage. Your melee attacks deal +1d6 Electrical damage. This damage scales 100% with Melee Power.

Tier Four

• Elaborate Parry: For the next 6/12/18 seconds, you gain Dodge, Maximum Dodge and maximum dexterity bonus to light armor, equal to your Dexterity Modifier. Cooldown: 90 seconds
  
  • The old Elaborate Parry didn't have a good fit anywhere for anyone. It wasn't a good "panic button", since you had to build up charges. Getting to maximum charges was possible but a chore, and you couldn't keep them for very long. This ability is now a strong panic button for dedicated Dexterity builds, capable of reaching very high Dodge for brief periods. It's still potentially useful for other builds as long as they include moderate Dexterity in their overall build. This also builds into the theme of Tempest as an generally mobile and evasive melee combatant.
  
  
• Critical Damage: Removed from tree, functionality combined into Critical Mastery.
• Storm Tempest: (2 AP) Passive. Upgrades Storm Dancer Electrical damage absorption to 30% (instead of 15%). Upgrades melee attacks to deal +2d6 Electrical damage (instead of 1d6).

Tier Five

• A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack. Deals +1/+3/+5(W) damage. You gain +15/+30/+45 doublestrike, +15/30/45 Melee Power, 15 seconds. Cooldown: 90 seconds.
  
  • Gives more room for beneficial Doublestrike from other abilities, increases basic damage, synergy with other abilities that scale with Melee Power, slightly reduces lag with lower Doublestrike.
  
  
• Dual Perfection: (2 AP) Your off hand weapon now adds your full attribute damage modifier. (For instance, if you have 30 Strength, you'll gain +10 damage with your offhand weapon, like your main hand weapon.)
• Whirling Blades: (2 AP) +3 to hit and damage when dual wielding.

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback.

[Delacroix21]

Hurray! Thanks for posting!

[Steve_Howe]

Neato!

[Grailhawk]

Given that Stalker does not have a Crit extension and Tempest does not have a Crit extension is it save to assume the design decision to leave Rangers as the only melee class with out a Crit extension of some kind has been made and is final?

Barbarian = Critical Rage, Death Frenzy (19-20 +1)
Fighter = Keen Edge
Paladins = Holy Sword
Monks = Earth Stance (19-20 +1), Ninja Mastery, Staff Spec, Violence Begets Violence (not very good but its something)
Rogues = Knife spec, Staff Spec
Bards = Swashbuckler, Exploit Weakness
Ranger = Nothing

[ValariusK]

Given that Stalker does not have a Crit extension and Tempest does not have a Crit extension is it save to assume the design decision to leave Rangers as the only melee class with out a Crit extension of some kind has been made and is final?

Barbarian = Critical Rage, Death Frenzy (19-20 +1)
Fighter = Keen Edge
Paladins = Holy Sword
Monks = Earth Stance (19-20 +1), Ninja Mastery, Staff Spec, Violence Begets Violence (not very good but its something)
Rogues = Knife spec, Staff Spec
Bards = Swashbuckler, Exploit Weakness
Ranger = Nothing

Yep, as Impressive as your proposed 1000 cuts is, its only about the same damage effect as zeal + holy sword when its running, and its only running 15 out of 90 seconds.

[ValariusK]

Can we discuss the bottom line?
It is my contention that a ranger should have more DPS than a paladin.
Why?
A paladin heals better than a ranger, especially in burst circumstances and is much more durable than a ranger, what with heavy armor plus and excellent saves even in EE. If a ranger has only the dps of a paladin, which they don't, even after the tempest + DWS, why play a ranger when a pally or a pally with a ranger splash can cover all the ranger bases better than a mostly pure or pure ranger?
If the pally dps level is too high there are solutions for that.
You're going to have this problem even more for the fighter pass when you get there.

[Postumus]

Can we discuss the bottom line?
It is my contention that a ranger should have more DPS than a paladin.

Yes. For melee based classes, highest to lowest DPS should go something like Barbarian>Fighter/Monk>Ranger/Rogue>Paladin.

That's not to say that Paladin should be nerfed back to what it used to be, but damage output should be inverse to self-healing except, possibly, for premium classes.

[Qhualor]

Yes. For melee based classes, highest to lowest DPS should go something like Barbarian>Fighter/Monk>Ranger/Rogue>Paladin.

that's a simplistic way to look at it, but ranger FE should come out ahead of paladin in most cases, but a paladin should come out ahead if they are fighting evil mobs. a barbarian should come out ahead in short straight up dps fights, but a ranger should pull ahead if its FE and due to self healing if its a long fight. not really the case in DDO where barbs have access to self healing comparable to a rangers.

[Grailhawk]

Yes. For melee based classes, highest to lowest DPS should go something like Barbarian>Fighter/Monk>Ranger/Rogue>Paladin.

That's an opinion and you are entitled to it but there are others that are equally justifiable.

Barbarian = Rogue > Fighter > Ranger >= Monk >= Paladin

Is my opinion.

And given the changes to the game where Armor is now actually a useful think I could be talked into lowering Fighter below Ranger. And against favored enemies Rangers should be equal to top tier.

[mezzorco]

I have three things to say.

1. I'm so happy that tempests now have full stat on offhand! And the stance too, it's really nice!

2. I feel that this tree is a bit too expensive.
For example, on T2 there is +10 prr for 6 APs, while the same enhancement in warpriest costs 3 APs.
The same can be said for Improved Defense, 6 APs for +3 prr/mrr is a bit much, expecially when considering that it contends with Improved Reaction, a good choice for 3 APs.
Also, I don't understand if you are removing Whirling Blades from T1-T4 and placing the T5 one instead, or if the T5 one is in addition to them: if you're removing them, then good job as it frees up some APs, thus rendering moot-ish my point.

3. Thousand Cuts.
Doublestrike is thematic, but unfortunately doesn't synergize well with TWF, since it only applies to main hand.
Let's assume a pure tempest has ~35% doublestrike for math easiness (9% EPL, 5% tempest, 5% PTWF, 3% twist, item) and 35% offhand doublestrike (PTWF and capstone).
So he's hitting 2.7 times per swing. When activating Thousand Cuts, he's hitting 3.15 times per swing, just 16% more.
While melee power definitely will help here, I find awkward this imbalance between main hand and offhand.
Maybe it could grant 30% doublestrike, 30% offhand doublestrike and 30 melee power. Don't know, opinions?

EDIT: 4. Capstone could love STR builds a bit more

[Vargouille]

Also, I don't understand if you are removing Whirling Blades from T1-T4 and placing the T5 one instead, or if the T5 one is in addition to them

Clarifying: Unmentioned enhancements are remaining the same. Whirling blades in lower tiers still exist.

[losian2]

Given that Stalker does not have a Crit extension and Tempest does not have a Crit extension is it save to assume the design decision to leave Rangers as the only melee class with out a Crit extension of some kind has been made and is final?

Barbarian = Critical Rage, Death Frenzy (19-20 +1)
Fighter = Keen Edge
Paladins = Holy Sword
Monks = Earth Stance (19-20 +1), Ninja Mastery, Staff Spec, Violence Begets Violence (not very good but its something)
Rogues = Knife spec, Staff Spec
Bards = Swashbuckler, Exploit Weakness
Ranger = Nothing

Monk is probably second worst off here, especially unarmed or not in earth stance (it sucks being pigeonholed into *one* stance forever no matter what to put out decent damage.)

[EllisDee37]

A Thousand Cuts still looks terrible to me. In terms of melee clickies, I won't even consider taking anything with a longer cooldown than 15 seconds. And 15 seconds is pushing it. Change it to a different DPS effect that has a 15-second cooldown, making it the single-target dps effect of choice where Dance of Death is the AoE dps effect of choice.

You could even make Thousand Cuts and Dance of Death share a cooldown to prevent stacking with each other if you like. Totally fine by me. But 90 seconds? That means I'll never, ever use it except for exactly one time during boss fights. That's just awful; a tier 5 clicky ability that I only ever use once per quest? Super weaksauce.

EDIT: In terms of crit profile bonuses, what about the idea of adding +1 crit range and multiplier to your offhand weapon only? Maybe the ML18 core.

[EllisDee37]

For a single-target 15-second Thousand Cuts, how about something like:


A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack. Deals +1/+3/+5(W) damage. You gain +5/+15/+25 doublestrike and bypass 5%/15%/25% fortification for 12 seconds. Cooldown: 15 seconds. (Shares a cooldown with Dance of Death.)

Compare this to the tier TWO Quick Strike in acrobat:

Quick Strike: Melee Quarterstaff Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. You gain a 5%/15%/25% Morale bonus to melee doublestrike for 10 seconds. (Cooldown: 18/15/12 seconds)


Maybe my proposed Thousand Cuts would need a touch more buffing to justify the difference between tier 5 and tier 2? Maybe add in 3/6/10 melee power as well?

[DevilYouKnow]

I love it ! Thanks very much.

[EllisDee37]

Actually, thinking further on the crit profile issue, here's a design concept to "fake" that dps without giving actual crit bonuses:

- Give out Improved Critical feat in some way
- Bypass fortification

If you have Precision, ship buffs, thunderforged, and twist in Grim Precision, that's 80% fort bypass. So 20% is the magic number to bring that to 100% fort bypass, letting you crit more than someone with less than 100% bypass but who has a better crit profile when fighting 100% fort mobs.

For tempest, how about a tier 5 that grants Improved Critical while dual-wielding if either a) your offhand weapon is light, or b) you take the Oversized TWF feat.


That means my ideal Tier 5 would look like:

Evasive Dance: no change

A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack. Deals +1/+3/+5(W) damage. You gain +10/+15/+20 doublestrike and bypass 10%/15%/20% fortification for 12 seconds. Cooldown: 15 seconds. (Shares a cooldown with Dance of Death.)

Dance of Death: (Shares a cooldown with A Thousand Cuts.)

Dual Perfection: (2 AP) +5% attack speed. Your off hand weapon now adds your full attribute damage modifier. (For instance, if you have 30 Strength, you'll gain +10 damage with your offhand weapon, like your main hand weapon.)

Whirling Blades: (2 AP) +1 to hit and damage when dual wielding. You gain the effects of Improved Critical for all weapons when dual wielding.
Requires All Of: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Tier 4 Whirling Blades.

[Propane]

A few thoughts…


Core – Add some noticeable defense – don’t forget STR builds.

Whirling Steel – 5 to AC/PR/MR at T1, + 2-3 per core
Dervish +4 DEX & + 4 STR

Tier One

Improved Defense 3, 5, 10 to all per rank
Acrobat - +1 Reflex per rank

Tier Five

I would like to see the auto crit attack from DWS – Melee only + 1 crit modifier – 10 sec cool down

[RD2play]

- whirlwind is a bit lacklustre,
- dervish, looks like a good capstone. yet I usually run str build so the dex isn't doing it for me, maybe add +2str

- improved defence is either too expensive or too weak, make it 1/1/1 AP or increase the bonus to +3/6/10
- acrobatic, good change

- elaborate parry, bit long on the cooldown. looks like a great ability

- storm dancer/tempest, look like ok abilities are they going to be preqs for 1kcuts?

- Thousand cuts, looks great but little short on the duration, maybe change to 10/15/20 seconds
- Dual Perfection, perfection
- Whirling blades, did you remove this from the lower tiers and then combined them into this one enhancement? yes? .. maybe move it to T4, else its ok here but 2ap for 3dmg ? change to MP maybe.

There seems to be very little dodge in this tree other than the "panic dodge" so are these all the abilities or just the changed added ones ? I hope so since I don't see dance in there either?

[Axeyu]

A Thousand Cuts still looks terrible to me. In terms of melee clickies, I won't even consider taking anything with a longer cooldown than 15 seconds. And 15 seconds is pushing it. Change it to a different DPS effect that has a 15-second cooldown, making it the single-target dps effect of choice where Dance of Death is the AoE dps effect of choice.

You could even make Thousand Cuts and Dance of Death share a cooldown to prevent stacking with each other if you like. Totally fine by me. But 90 seconds? That means I'll never, ever use it except for exactly one time during boss fights. That's just awful; a tier 5 clicky ability that I only ever use once per quest? Super weaksauce.

That is the best suggetion in this thread. Make it so!

[HuneyMunster]

Given that Stalker does not have a Crit extension and Tempest does not have a Crit extension is it save to assume the design decision to leave Rangers as the only melee class with out a Crit extension of some kind has been made and is final?

Barbarian = Critical Rage, Death Frenzy (19-20 +1)
Fighter = Keen Edge
Paladins = Holy Sword
Monks = Earth Stance (19-20 +1), Ninja Mastery, Staff Spec, Violence Begets Violence (not very good but its something)
Rogues = Knife spec, Staff Spec
Bards = Swashbuckler, Exploit Weakness
Ranger = Nothing

You forgot one that does through form, but not enhancements
Druid = Winter Wolf x3 19-20, Dire Bear x3 20

Also
Arti melee based Battle Engineer = Nothing

And you could also include just for completion

Cleric/FvS Warpriest = Nothing
Wiz/Sorc Tempest Knight = Nothing
Warlock Enlightened Spirit = Nothing, but doesn't need it.