Ranger: Tempest Changes

[bbqzor]

Overall as stated by the developer himself, would that be a dps loss by itself when increasing the duration/cooldown.

I just want to be sure you (and others) are understanding this... He said it would be a dps loss if the cd was increased because when you click it, on the initial swing, you get +1/3/5 W.

So like if the cd is 15s, you get 4 click/min, you add 20W (provided all four hit). If the cd is 30s, you only get 10W. The total amount the actual Dance is active remains the same at 10/15 and 20/30 and 40/60 (past 1 minute it does not). The way you posted emphasizes the longer cd time as a loss... but over a 60s window its exactly the same amount of cd. It just differs in how its broken up.

The dps loss from "missed Ws" is strictly minor: 10-15W per minute. Even with a d20 W, thats only 1-3 dps, at most. Given that most dps characters (like tempests) are well over 1k dps at this point (certainly when using boosts like this one, if not before), its not even on the radar.

What is on the radar is how much micromanagement fits your playstyle, and how well this abilities timer meshes with the other abilities of the class. Thats an individual question, hence the poll. I strongly feel 20/30 is best but some people do disagree. And thats cool.

But I want to be sure the disagreement its over the playstyle question and not the 0.1% dps difference from a single missed W add-on. Thats not really a concern here. And when using something like haste boost, could easily be made up by the fact that you're now hitting an extra mob for 5 sec longer than other choices... that easily makes up some W. Its all about style here, not about Ws.

[DevilYouKnow]

I just want to be sure you (and others) are understanding this... He said it would be a dps loss if the cd was increased because when you click it, on the initial swing, you get +1/3/5 W.

So like if the cd is 15s, you get 4 click/min, you add 20W (provided all four hit). If the cd is 30s, you only get 10W. The total amount the actual Dance is active remains the same at 10/15 and 20/30 and 40/60 (past 1 minute it does not). The way you posted emphasizes the longer cd time as a loss... but over a 60s window its exactly the same amount of cd. It just differs in how its broken up.

The dps loss from "missed Ws" is strictly minor: 10-15W per minute. Even with a d20 W, thats only 1-3 dps, at most. Given that most dps characters (like tempests) are well over 1k dps at this point (certainly when using boosts like this one, if not before), its not even on the radar.

What is on the radar is how much micromanagement fits your playstyle, and how well this abilities timer meshes with the other abilities of the class. Thats an individual question, hence the poll. I strongly feel 20/30 is best but some people do disagree. And thats cool.

But I want to be sure the disagreement its over the playstyle question and not the 0.1% dps difference from a single missed W add-on. Thats not really a concern here. And when using something like haste boost, could easily be made up by the fact that you're now hitting an extra mob for 5 sec longer than other choices... that easily makes up some W. Its all about style here, not about Ws.

DoD should not be changed.

10/15 is best for trash, and it should remain so. You won't be using it on bosses, that is for sure.

I would be very annoyed if they changed that. They should rather consider changing its ap cost.

[mikarddo]

40/60 goes well with Manyshot being 20 sec duration.

[DevilYouKnow]

40/60 goes well with Manyshot being 20 sec duration.

Is this topic about dance of death only now ? I thought the point of the enhancement pass wasn't a nerf ?

Either 10/15 or 15/20 . Other than that, would result in a net nerf of dps.

[Grailhawk]

Oh I'm not questioning how good it is. I'm questioning the 5/10/20/1 minute that ranger players are doing while DoD is on cooldown. I don't see an ability like this that has a short cooldown as a loss in dps when you have other things to click, your doublestriking, manyshotting, etc. It just sounded to me like it's the end all be all enhancement and it's the only thing worth having disregarding everything else available to a ranger.

Its not the only source of DPS, Its the only GOOD source of AoE DPS on a two weapon fighter.

5 Seconds of sucking vs AoE Groups is tolerable raising that just raise the intolerable.

Against a single target two weapon fighting is fine its when you get swarmed that it sucks and unlike the other styles the cleave type attacks suck they are only doing ~50% of your total damage per hit on a two weapon fighter.

[sjbb87]

Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

10s duration, 15s cooldown

Dont change this cooldown ps.


changing the subject

You could add a UI to show when hitting a double strike?
Even if in a different color ....

So I'm following here, most players believe it should later add +1 critical damage multiplier while two-weapon fighting.
It works well both at 5/6 core, or tier 5


I personally the way the tree was presented already be satisfied if you add at least one of:

+1 Critical damage multiplier while two-weapon fighting

or

adding 10% attack speed

[Lonnbeimnech]

I'm still not seeing why I would want more than 6 ranger levels with this. The 4th, 5th and 6th cores need something more enticing. Maybe the 3rd and 4th levels spells do too.

[Grailhawk]

[*]Whirlwind: +5% melee doublestrike chance when dual wielding, +5 Melee Power.

How about changing that to 10% Alacrity its time tempest got that back the U5 nerf would be undone!

Whirlwind is week for a Core 18 please address this.

[DevilYouKnow]

How about changing that to 10% Alacrity its time tempest got that back the U5 nerf would be undone!

Whirlwind is week for a Core 18 please address this.

Whirlwind needs to provide 30% doublestrike and add +15 melee power.

[Robai]

...
General question for the audience:
Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

...

Without +5[W] on DoD:

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown (too short duration)
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown (still too short duration)
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown (this one looks OK to me)
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown (this one looks OK to me)
5. 2m duration, once per rest. (not enough, especially for flower sniffers)

EDIT:
In my case clicking something usually means like spending additional 5 secs just for that (unless it's on a hot key, meaning that the button is near my fingers, but only several buttons can be there and they are all already used by Cleave/Great Cleave/Momentum Swing/Lay Waste/4 Moves/Jump/other things).

EDIT2:
Just a thought, you could give players an option to choose which version players would like to take (like 2 options, one with shorter timers and one with longer timers).

EDIT3:
Ok, I've forgot about +5[W] per Dance of Death activation, this means that 15 sec CD was too long for that. I mean that's the reason why this can't go on a hot key, where only most often used attacks are, and actually that's the reason why I was no longer using DoD at all (took improved evasion instead).
+5[W] means that I'd like the timers be be even shorter!

With +5[W] on DoD:

1. 2s duration, 3s cooldown (oh yeah, give me THAT!)
2. 10s duration, 15s cooldown (too long cooldown)

[Requiro]

Thanks for respond. My comment in RED

(...)

• Some other AP costs may get reduced. Great!

We realize that some players don't value Deflect Arrows very highly, but we'll just have to disagree on that point. Especially with the upgrades in Tempest, it's a very useful ability. We cannot in good conscience make it available to all rangers for 1 AP. That's basically making it a class feature for all characters with 1 level of Ranger. That's unfair and unbalanced (and arguably pretty rude to Monks).

Seriously? Hmm.. If you posses this kind of knowledge - Can you tell me how many Monks take Deflect Arrow feat?

Maybe I'm alone, but for me it's not worth even 1 AP, not mention feat slot or 12 levels of Ranger.


This is already better than most similar lines in other martial trees, since you get to attack more with Tempests.

You actually right! Never tough that so many Enhancement trees have so week lines. Who wonder.

Collectively these should be powerful and include abilities that shouldn't be widely available with low commitment. Each individual tier 5 ability need not be more powerful than each other ability in the tree.

Maybe in theory. Other class updates show otherwise.

(...)

[Kielbasa]

How about changing that to 10% Alacrity its time tempest got that back the U5 nerf would be undone!

Whirlwind is week for a Core 18 please address this.

Yes they need to address whirlwind. More damage in some form would be great. This is also a great place to add more dodge ,max dodge cap, even a little more flavor such as 5% move speed per kill, etc.

[Thar]

Thanks for respond. My comment in RED

I love the deflect arrows feat.

the problem is you don't notice it working most of the time.

but yes it is expensive

[Axeyu]

A Thousand Cuts still looks terrible to me. In terms of melee clickies, I won't even consider taking anything with a longer cooldown than 15 seconds. And 15 seconds is pushing it. Change it to a different DPS effect that has a 15-second cooldown, making it the single-target dps effect of choice where Dance of Death is the AoE dps effect of choice.

You could even make Thousand Cuts and Dance of Death share a cooldown to prevent stacking with each other if you like. Totally fine by me. But 90 seconds? That means I'll never, ever use it except for exactly one time during boss fights. That's just awful; a tier 5 clicky ability that I only ever use once per quest? Super weaksauce.

That is the best suggetion in this thread. Make it so!

[WiseFreelancer]

Good start. Others have amply pointed out the hole dug by giving crit-multipliers to everyone else- I'll just provide some quick numbers for that. If you see an error, please let me know! <snip>

This is a compelling argument for some kind of dps increase (crit or otherwise). Interestingly, this is also an argument as to why dex builds need the help while strength builds can be on their own - if I go strength, why wouldn't I use khorpeshs and get 18-20x3? Sure, its not as good as holy sword, but I am getting the better attack rate laid out in the post, so the gap is far closer than a dex ranger with rapiers or scimitars would be.

[Requiro]

I love the deflect arrows feat.

the problem is you don't notice it working most of the time.

but yes it is expensive

I guess it's blind love then ?

[Thar]

It is the main source of AoE DPS for a TWF Ranger and is the only GOOD!! source of AoE DPS for any TWFing build.

DoD is what makes TWF viable its a killer app in this game where we have so many waves of trash raising its cooldown would be a horrible move.

/melodrama on
end of the world park your TWF melee toons and forget about them horrible
/melodrama off

Changing DoD is bad.

On this point, Varg can we get some review of the whirlwind feat. it's what dex based classes would use, particularly tempest since you have half the prereq's with the dodge enhancements.

you spin twice for some reason in the animation but only attack once. it's twice as long as great cleave.

[TackW5]

To respond to Varg's last post about design concerns, I would say Tempest is in dire need of more active abilities. Look at what it has, omitting boosts:
T2: Bleed them out (6 sec CD)
T4: Elaborate Parry (90 sec CD), Growing Storm (30 sec CD)
T5: 1k Cuts (2 min CD), Dance of Death (15 sec CD)
So, if I am playing a Tempest, I am autoattacking and pressing Bleed every 6 seconds? That is not thrilling.

Now, it may be assumed I am going to go deep in DWS and pick up the actives there.
Cores: Exposing Strike (6 sec CD), Mark of the Hunted (limited charges, but we will count it)
T1: Tendon Cut (15 sec CD)
T2: Empathic Healing (Woot! But, we'll count it)
T4: Hunter's Mercy
So, that gives me, the melee ranger, 10 active abilities to manage during combat, boosts aside. Of those, most have a long enough CD, charges, or situational reasons not to be used often

Compare that to Assassin
Trick, 3 poisons, Shiv, Bleed, Shadow Dagger, Execute, Assassinate: 9 abilities, none of them charged, from one tree. And, with a little dipping, we can easily add Sly Flourish, Tanglefoot, and Thunderstone.

Please, give me something to do if I am playing a Tempest. Give me offensive spells, SLAs, spell-point using melee attacks, or something.

[Shindoku]

So as is the tree would look (something) like:

Some more general comments:

Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

I'd personally prefer the 10s duration, 15s cooldown. There are times that you don't want to hit a certain mob, and losing at most 15 seconds on a valuable buff rather than 30s-Once per rest is much more appealing (especially if you are not attacking and just waiting for the buff to end).

Also, I know you stated it is intentional that there are not many strength boosts in the tree, but would you consider adding +2 to the capstone. The +25% off-hand doublestrike is still a really good incentive (regardless of what you use to-damage) however, it'd be nice to see some hit and damage for those wanting to go strength based.

[Axeyu]

To respond to Varg's last post about design concerns, I would say Tempest is in dire need of more active abilities. Look at what it has, omitting boosts:
T2: Bleed them out (6 sec CD)
T4: Elaborate Parry (90 sec CD), Growing Storm (30 sec CD)
T5: 1k Cuts (2 min CD), Dance of Death (15 sec CD)
So, if I am playing a Tempest, I am autoattacking and pressing Bleed every 6 seconds? That is not thrilling.

Now, it may be assumed I am going to go deep in DWS and pick up the actives there.
Cores: Exposing Strike (6 sec CD), Mark of the Hunted (limited charges, but we will count it)
T1: Tendon Cut (15 sec CD)
T2: Empathic Healing (Woot! But, we'll count it)
T4: Hunter's Mercy
So, that gives me, the melee ranger, 10 active abilities to manage during combat, boosts aside. Of those, most have a long enough CD, charges, or situational reasons not to be used often

Compare that to Assassin
Trick, 3 poisons, Shiv, Bleed, Shadow Dagger, Execute, Assassinate: 9 abilities, none of them charged, from one tree. And, with a little dipping, we can easily add Sly Flourish, Tanglefoot, and Thunderstone.

Please, give me something to do if I am playing a Tempest. Give me offensive spells, SLAs, spell-point using melee attacks, or something.

Ability based combat is not exactly the hallmark of DDO. We have gotten more than enough of that already lately, I don't want any more.