Ranger: Tempest Changes

[ValariusK]

Also, if your ranged, you only need 14 paly since zeal is useless for bow users. So, you get free manyshot and can use IPS there.

pally-14/ranger-6 is the 'I'm a ranger, only better' build. It plays by smoking multishot whenever its up and then meleeing until it comes back up. So you do miss zeal, a little. It's a tradeoff. But neither build has any trouble fitting multishot in, its just IPS that's a challenge for the 15/5 build.

[JOTMON]

~snip~
Goals
~ We also wanted to balance rewards for Dexterity Tempest builds - Strength and Dexterity builds should have a reasonable place after these changes. ~
~This is also a place we're working to make sure light armor melee characters can be competitive.~
.

so... Strength builds ? ...
the only Strength perk is on the T5 level for 2 AP get to add full STR to offhand[*] Dual Perfection: (2 AP) Your off hand weapon now adds your full attribute damage modifier. (For instance, if you have 30 Strength, you'll gain +10 damage with your offhand weapon, like your main hand weapon.)
Wile it is an interesting perk.. T5 before you get a chance to benefit... meh..

~snip~.[*]A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack. Deals +1/+3/+5(W) damage. You gain +15/+30/+45 doublestrike, +15/30/45 Melee Power, 15 seconds. Cooldown: 90 seconds.

That's a long cooldown for a T5 ability.. and is .. meh.. its lacking some umph.. like an aoe whirlwind attack..
compare to...
~Bard~T2 Double Strike Boost: Activate to gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
~Bard~T5 Coup de Grace: Multiselector, Melee or Ranged Attack: Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly. (15 second cooldown) .. yeah.. 15 second..insta-kills ...
~Barbarian Tantrum: Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 25 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has a 50% to knock down each damage enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. (10 + Strength modifier + Barbarian Level).

~snip~.

Tempest should be the dual wielding version of Swashbuckler(swap swashbuckler with dual wield) .. from what I see Swashbuckler blows away tempest..
Swashbuckler in general has a lot of goodies that make tempest look sucky..
Tempest gets..

T3 Storm Dancer: (2 AP) Stance: Absorb 15% of Electrical damage. Your melee attacks deal +1d6 Electrical damage. This damage scales 100% with Melee Power.
T3 Critical Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) +1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits.
T4 Storm Tempest: (2 AP) Passive. Upgrades Storm Dancer Electrical damage absorption to 30% (instead of 15%). Upgrades melee attacks to deal +2d6 Electrical damage (instead of 1d6).

Swashbuckler gets
T1 (1/2/3AP) Blow By Blow: Make an Melee attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals (+1/+2/+3)d6 extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by (100/200/300). This Sonic damage scales with spell power.

~7AP vs 3AP and lower tiers and Swashbucklers is still more appealing..~

~snip~
T1 Improved Defense: (2/2/2 AP) Shield of Whirling Steel grants +1/2/3 Armor Class, Physical Resist, and Magical Resistance. If you possess Deflect Arrows it can trigger once every 4/3/2 seconds.
.

Occult Slayer
T1 (1/1/1AP) Parrying Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to AC and +[1/2/3] Magical Resistance.
~6 AP vs 3 AP~
Enlightnened Spirit
T1 (1/1/1AP)Resilience of Body: +2/+4/+6 PRR
T1 (1/1/1AP) Spiritual Defense: While your Eldritch Aura is active, you and nearby allies get a +1/2/3 bonus to AC. You personally receive +5/+10/+15 Maximum Hitpoints (while Aura is active).
T1 (1/1/1AP) Resilience of Soul: +2/+4/+6 MRR
9AP for.. 6PRR/6MRR /3AC/+15HP vs 6AP Tempest for 3AC/3PRR/3MRR

~snip~.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckler_enhancements
Swashbuckler gets..Confidence: Passive: +1% Dodge, +1 Reflex Save, and +1 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor per Swashbuckler Core Ability you have.
SwashBuckler gets.. Uncanny Dodge: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
Swashbuckler gets..Roll with the Punches: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
Swashbuckler gets..Evasive Maneuvers: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX. While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus
Swashbucker gets.. Fast Movement: you run 1% faster for each of your Bard levels.
Swashbuckler T3 Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a 20% chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
Swashbuckler T3 Dashing Scoundrel: Passive: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Attack Damage per 5 Character levels and 10% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
Swashbuckler T3 Skirmisher: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 10% Dodge, and you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats
Swashbucker gets choices for attack to damage at T3.. Cha/Int/Dex
Swashbucker gets Battering Barrage: While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
~...where do I stop...~....

Swashbuckler gets sonic power boosts, whats a ranger have to do to get Positive power..


Other abilities..that would be good for tempest..
Ravager T5 Uncanny Balance: You are immune to most knockdowns and slippery surfaces... would work for tempest..
Ravager T4 I Hit Back!: When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 bane damage to attacker. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.
Ravager T4 Dismember: Cruel Cut increases Melee Power by 5 for 10 seconds. Cruel Cut additional slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 bane damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 bane damage. bane damage scales with 200% Melee Power
Ravager T2 Cruel Cut: Melee Attack: Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage as long as you damage your target.
Occult Slayer T1 (1/1/1AP) Parrying Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to AC and +[1/2/3] Magical Resistance.

Hamstring/crippling
fortification bypass
Stacking Riposte
Displacement/fade from sight.. perhaps something like ethereal jaunt...




Looks to me like Tempest has a long way to go in AP cost and useful perks to be in the competition worthy range.
Instead of... splash other classes just for their enhancments.. because Tempest ones just don't measure
Tempest DPS improvements in tempest is underwhelming.. to me it seems its pretty self explanatory why no one plays pure rangers .. splashing other classes is just that much better.

[DevilYouKnow]

15/5 Ranger
43 AP Tempest (30 + 13)
23 AP Stalker (Killer)
11 AP Knight of the Chalice (Divine Might)
03 AP Human

20 Ranger
45 AP Tempest
24 AP Stalker (Killer + Sneak Attack IV)
08 AP Harper
03 AP Human

Deltas are
Holy Sword, Zeal, Divine Favor
+1 Crit, +1 Threat, +10% Double Strike
vs
Ram's Might, Graceful Death, Whirlwind, Dervish, Sneak Attack IV
+10% Offhand Proc, +30 Melee Power, +5% Double Strike, +1d6 Sneak Attack

10% Double Strike vs 10% Offhand Proc and 5% Double Strike is close enough to call a wash.
1d6 Sneak Attack vs 1d8 Light damage is a wash

30 Melee Power vs +1 Crit and Threat is a clear win for Paladins Ranger would need with out changing any AP spent a +20-30 MP bonus just to start making this a wash comparison.


Suggestion to bring this in to balance
Option 1
Whirlwind +15% DS +10 MP
Dervish +25 MP

Option 2
Another option to bring this close is to add
+5/5 to Whirlwind
A Dex based Divine Might/Know the Angles clicky to Tempest or Stalker
And +15 MP to Mark of the Hunter in Stalker

Are you for real ? Who in his right mind is going to spend 23 AP for just one semi-useful ability (which does nothing against bosses), with every other ability being junk ? I know, that i wouldn't ! You are better off getting all kotc core abilities and strong defense.

[Grailhawk]

Some more general comments:

• Holy Sword changes are pending. It's fine to bring up class vs. class debates, but right now we're not going to spend excessive worry over Paladin/Ranger multiclass builds. (This of course isn't the thread for discussing Holy Sword changes.)
• Some other AP costs may get reduced.
• Fortification bypass is an interesting idea.

Finally, given this I think you are doing fine with what is here maybe even gone to far...

General question for the audience:
Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

Theoretically, consider changing other abilities by multiplying both cooldown and duration. (Note that this is a strict loss of DPS for actual attacks that grant +[W], but obviously some players may prefer that playstyle.)

10/15
20/30

Are my preference.

But for One Thousand Cuts I like the 20/90 just like manyshot IMO One Thousand Cuts should be a melee manyshot It could even share a timer as far as I'm concerned.

Fairly sure you're wrong here.

1. 30 DEX/STR is something you might actually have at level 12, when you get the ability. We'd expect high level characters to likely have 50, and characters really pushing the limit to be closer to 80-100 (or more, for STR). The example using "30" is just to help explain the math, not an expectation your or I should have for end game.
2. 5 damage for 2 AP is a decent deal regardless.
3. Tier 5 abilities are not automatically each promoted to super awesomeness. This is not a "feature of being in tier 5". It's a good ability, worth the cost, amongst other abilities. (This isn't to say Ranger balance is done or perfect, but not every tier 5 ability needs to look like an Epic Moment to be "worthy" of being in tier 5.)

You have this right Dual Perfection is perfect.

[Stoner81]

General question for the audience:
Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

Option 2 or 3 would be pretty good I think for this. Option 1 is just to short in duration to be really useful and 4+5 seem like a really long cooldown, granted it lasts longer but when you factor in running in quests from mobs to mobs you could lose a good chunk of time looking for mobs to kill. End result is 2 or 3 are the best imho since it puts it with similar things like Haste/Damage boost/s etc. Having said all that I have not played a proper Ranger in a long long time

Stoner81.

[Grailhawk]

Are you for real ? Who in his right mind is going to spend 23 AP for just one semi-useful ability (which does nothing against bosses), with every other ability being junk ? I know, that i wouldn't ! You are better off getting all kotc core abilities and strong defense.

Are you a sock? 5 levels of ranger is going to limit your light damage from cores to 3d6 you think that's better then Killer (the version you want that works like old masters blitz, you did see that change right?)

If you want to compare a different AP lay go for it.

[Mindos]

Question though, for Dance of Death, was any consideration given to the "reach" involved? There was a thread some time back examining how hard it is to get twf to reach far enough to ever really catch more than 2 mobs with this, without "perfect alignment" kinds of things happening. I am hoping that as part of the pass, this can be looked at. Maybe if it cant be made "easier" to catch more mobs (ie, the ability adjusts the reach in terms of distance and arc of attack while active) then perhaps it could be made to last 20s with a 30s cd, similar to a regular boost. Then it would at least be less micromanagement to utilize it at reduced effectiveness, while having the exact same uptime/downtime ratio it has now.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ttack-distance Attack distances.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...garding-TWFing Some TWF discussion.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...les-Comparison Hard data on attack rates and damage

[Thar]

Some more general comments:

1. We're still balancing numbers and doing DPS testing. If your only concern with changes thus far is DPS, that's arguably the easiest possible concern for us to address and one we're going to explicitly spend more time looking into. It's just not the #1 priority for the design of the tree, nor should it be. It's very, very important. But design and balance are not one and the same thing.
2. We have not found high level STR builds to be behind DEX builds. There are intentional tradeoffs, but going for Strength is not losing you damage. Strength Tempests do not require more explicit support to be an equally viable build to DEX, as far as we can tell. We're happy to hear about play or tests showing DEX is doing more damage than STR builds, if that's what you are seeing.
   
   • It's no accident that there's a few options that reward Dexterity but not Strength. Strength is rewarding in of itself, for those builds. Only Tempest and Graceful Death directly affects damage differences between STR and DEX, and all they really do is let DEX theoretically match STR for DPS.
   • Getting Dexterity improves nearly all Strength builds, for Reflex saves if nothing else. The reverse is not nearly as true - Strength isn't really useful for most DEX builds.
   • Some of the details depends on your other choices, and other details such as party composition, possible multiclass options, etc. But even just taking into account things such as Primal Rage, Strength values are just higher than Dexterity.
   
   
3. Holy Sword changes are pending. It's fine to bring up class vs. class debates, but right now we're not going to spend excessive worry over Paladin/Ranger multiclass builds. (This of course isn't the thread for discussing Holy Sword changes.)
4. Some other AP costs may get reduced.
5. Fortification bypass is an interesting idea.

To reiterate, this is only the changes compared to the existing tree.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Tempest_enhancements



I appreciate posts that go against the grain.


Could you please be more specific on where you are seeing a bonus type of Enhancement? To the best of my knowledge that's never been true, nor stated anywhere, but there might be some text I'm personally unaware of.




We've done an examination of this distance, yes. It would require a very large amount of work to change, and it's not clear how desirable changing something this would ultimately be.



General question for the audience:
Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

Theoretically, consider changing other abilities by multiplying both cooldown and duration. (Note that this is a strict loss of DPS for actual attacks that grant +[W], but obviously some players may prefer that playstyle.)



It's true: Heroic Ranger enhancements, most of which are available by level ~5, generally aren't similar in power to Epic Destiny level 20+ abilities like Cocoon.

[By Design]



Rangers have always had more affinity for elements than other classes, though it's waxed and waned at times. However, that's not the most relevant piece here: This isn't Ranger, this is Tempest. Like Warchanter, it's allowed flavor and distinctions separate from the class itself.


Fairly sure you're wrong here.

1. 30 DEX/STR is something you might actually have at level 12, when you get the ability. We'd expect high level characters to likely have 50, and characters really pushing the limit to be closer to 80-100 (or more, for STR). The example using "30" is just to help explain the math, not an expectation your or I should have for end game.
2. 5 damage for 2 AP is a decent deal regardless.
3. Tier 5 abilities are not automatically each promoted to super awesomeness. This is not a "feature of being in tier 5". It's a good ability, worth the cost, amongst other abilities. (This isn't to say Ranger balance is done or perfect, but not every tier 5 ability needs to look like an Epic Moment to be "worthy" of being in tier 5.)

We realize that some players don't value Deflect Arrows very highly, but we'll just have to disagree on that point. Especially with the upgrades in Tempest, it's a very useful ability. We cannot in good conscience make it available to all rangers for 1 AP. That's basically making it a class feature for all characters with 1 level of Ranger. That's unfair and unbalanced (and arguably pretty rude to Monks).


This is already better than most similar lines in other martial trees, since you get to attack more with Tempests.

Collectively these should be powerful and include abilities that shouldn't be widely available with low commitment. Each individual tier 5 ability need not be more powerful than each other ability in the tree.



It's a good idea. Thanks for bringing it up.



These will stack. Good catch on the wording, it is confusing and we'll clarify that.

If holy sword is changed, then bard/barbarian needs changes, and warlock needs a mob of nerfbats. it's hard for us to provide feedback for what we don't know the bar to be set at.

for the clickie, i'd prefer 40s/60 sec cooldown. i don't want to have to continually look to see if something is active. i hate clickies to start with.

ok so i was right, the dual perfection is adding 5 pts in the example not 10. (or 10 would be the damage output half from existing model and half from the change). i still think it's weak for a tier 5. Yes all tier 5's don't need to be woooo awesome. but this class has none that are woooo awesome. and in comparison, there is a tier 1 barbarian abillity that gives +3 damage per hit. if i recall improved power attack or some like name? so it's a little off balance for a tier 5 since there is already a +3 to hit/damage boost

the class needs a crit modifier or all the +3 or +5 are not balancing it with the +1/+1 for pallly, the +2 for barbs, the hit till you crit for bards. etc. I understand you don't want it as a tier 5 but it should be in the core.

[DevilYouKnow]

Are you a sock? 5 levels of ranger is going to limit your light damage from cores to 3d6 you think that's better then Killer (the version you want that works like old masters blitz, you did see that change right?)

If you want to compare a different AP lay go for it.

Are you a sock ?

Not just light damage (which scales with melee power), but you also get exalted smite, divine sacrifice, cleave and empowered smite. Let alone sacred defender, for the easy to get prr, saves and +6 strength.

What does DWS get you ? Just killer ? Really ? Just think about it a little bit. How is a semi-useful ability, which you need to build up by getting the killing blow, which does absolutely nothing in boss fights, going to compare to all that ?

I am not going to spend 23 AP for just killer. Not worth it at all, and will end up in less dps gain overall.

Try defiler of the just end fight. I can already tell you that this ability (killer) will be 100% useless in there.

Your trash dps might be a little little bit better (which i doubt), but it will absolutely underperform against bosses.

I am totally honest.

[DevilYouKnow]

General question for the audience:
Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

Theoretically, consider changing other abilities by multiplying both cooldown and duration. (Note that this is a strict loss of DPS for actual attacks that grant +[W], but obviously some players may prefer that playstyle.)

Why would i be wanting to do less dps by having the duration and cooldown increased ? I am totally not fine with doing less dps.

It is fine the way it is currently with a duration of 10 sec and 15 sec cooldown, otherwise i wouldn't even consider spending a single point on that ability.

Though you could have its cost reduced to 1/1/1 per rank taken, because it seems way too overpriced currently for what it does.

[MrWindupBird]

Good start. Others have amply pointed out the hole dug by giving crit-multipliers to everyone else- I'll just provide some quick numbers for that. If you see an error, please let me know!

Let's assume that there are enough benefits to going dex-based (remains to be seen) that our ranger wants to qualify for light weapons, and so has to use either scimitars or rapiers. Both builds will sit in LD with all available crit buffs (the difference will actually be wider in any other destiny).
Ranger 20: scimitars 18-20 x2
Pally 20: khopeshes 18-20 x4 w/ Holy Sword

Both have Ocrit, Devastating Critical. Let weapon damage be P for the paladin, R for the ranger. Both have seeker S. Assume 0% fort, both hit on a 2 (both hitting on a 3, etc will further favor the superior crit profile- the lower numbers sort of dilute the effect of crits)

Pally: 2-14 x 1, 15-18 x 4, 19-20 x6
Total: 13P + 4 x4[P+S] + 2 x6[P+S]
= 41P + 28S

Ranger: 2-14 x1, 15-18 x2, 19-20 x4
Total: 13R + 4 x2[R+S] + 2 x4[R+S]
= 29R + 16S

Ignoring the seeker and assuming same base damage, that means the paladin does 41/29, or 41.4% more weapon damage. If we assume both builds have weapon damage ~100 and seeker is ~ 25 (both reasonable at cap for TWF), then adjusting for seeker, it becomes 48 P and 33 R, or nearly 50% more damage (takehome point: seeker is not negligible! For the paladin build 3 seeker is better than 2 base damage vs 0 fort).

That's a hell of a lot of ground to make up. Rangers do get more doublestrike and offhand, let's look at how the total # of attacks compares.
TWF 20 paladin: Mainhand DS = 9% (past lives) + 12%(battleragers) + 5%(Perfect TWF) + 10%(Zeal) + 3%(Hail of Blows) = 39%
Offhand: 80% + 8% offhand doublestrike (Perfect TWF) = 88%
Total attacks/swing: 1.39 + 0.88 = 2.27

TWF 20 ranger: Mainhand DS = 29% (above without Zeal) + 5% (Whirlwind core) + 7.5 doublestrike (A Thousand Cuts, 1/6 uptime) + 12.5% (Killer from Deepwood stalker, requires 20pt investment, assuming average 2-3 stacks, generous assumption) = 54%
Offhand: 100% + 10% offhand doublestrike + 25% offhand doublestrike (capstone) = 135%
Total attacks/swing: 1.54+1.35 = 2.89

2.89/2.27 = 1.273, or 27% more attacks. That's a significant amount. However, even when accounting for the increased proc rates (not negligible, but nearly, since magical effects are on the order of about 10% of weapon damage), that's a long ways from the 50% gap we have to make up.

Without a crit multiplier somewhere, rangers would need an absurd amount of melee power or increased base damage to pull even.
For example, assuming around 140 melee power (24 epic levels + 18 ED + 15 enhancements + 6 feats + 6 sightless + 70blitz + 1 tome, more is easily possible) for a blitzed TWF paladin, or 2.4x multiplier, a ranger would need a 2.88 multiplier to do 20% more non-critical damage (which in combination with the attack speed would balance). That'd require 188 melee power, or a total of 63 via enhancements. Right now a tempest has 20 melee power ahead, 10 more if they drop a bunch of AP into Deepwood, and 7.5 additional if you include 1/6 uptime of A Thousand Cuts. So, about 25 melee power shy of calculated breakeven point.

Physical base damage is close to a wash: (Divine Might/7d6light/Divine Favor) vs (FE sometimes, 2d6 elec (lots of small resistance to elec), rams, full stat offhand) with ranger slightly ahead.
This is all paper math, and needs actual testing to validate. But I think it provides a pretty good idea of the power balance. Ranger looks closer to the current (albeit very inflated) bar than I expected when I saw the proposed enhancements, but it still lags behind according to my numbers. This also doesn’t account for the vastly superior defenses (mostly saves and hp: PRR is fine as proposed). On the other hand, rangers have more effective feats and a range option. It could be worse. Those who are clamoring for both +1 crit and +1 multiplier should look a little more closely: that would be far too much.

There is still the issue of the 15/5 pally/ranger. Maybe the way to address this, if you’re unwilling to totally nerf Holy Sword, is to have the spell give only a +1 crit range, and the crit multiplier to be moved to KOTC 18 core. No net change for 18+ paladins, but kills Holysword/Tier5 other builds.

Other thoughts: Elaborate Parry doesn’t look good. Assuming 60 dex (very reasonable), that’s +25 dodge with a 1/5 uptime, or 5% dodge for 3ap. Pretty underwhelming for a T5. While burst-offense is very valuable, burst-defense is not. Some more sources of dodge in the tree would be nice, even at the cost of PRR.

Last thought: while a holy-weapon style spell is a terrible idea, how about revamping the spellbook a bit? Change Longstrider, Mass (lvl4) to self-only and have it give +15% stacking speed, and change Wild Instincts to give a +5 +1/3 caster levels bonus to attack, and a +1/3 caster levels bonus to reflex saves. There, rangers have unique and useful spells that don’t expand the power frontier.

[DevilYouKnow]

If holy sword is changed, then bard/barbarian needs changes, and warlock needs a mob of nerfbats. it's hard for us to provide feedback for what we don't know the bar to be set at.

for the clickie, i'd prefer 40s/60 sec cooldown. i don't want to have to continually look to see if something is active. i hate clickies to start with.

ok so i was right, the dual perfection is adding 5 pts in the example not 10. (or 10 would be the damage output half from existing model and half from the change). i still think it's weak for a tier 5. Yes all tier 5's don't need to be woooo awesome. but this class has none that are woooo awesome. and in comparison, there is a tier 1 barbarian abillity that gives +3 damage per hit. if i recall improved power attack or some like name? so it's a little off balance for a tier 5 since there is already a +3 to hit/damage boost

the class needs a crit modifier or all the +3 or +5 are not balancing it with the +1/+1 for pallly, the +2 for barbs, the hit till you crit for bards. etc. I understand you don't want it as a tier 5 but it should be in the core.

40s/60s cooldown because you hate clickies, and want the rest of us to hate them as well, due to that change ?

So you prefer waiting 20 sec instead of the former 5 sec for a clicky ? Sorry, but i don't.

/absolutely not signed

[DevilYouKnow]

Tier 5 abilities are way to expensive for what they give.

Dance of Death: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage (2/2/2). Your basic attacks when dual wielding strike 2/3/4 targets per swing instead of one for 10 seconds. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Is not overall useful because as an AOE ability it won't be doing anything vs. bosses but rather just add a small amount of +W damage.

Overall i am not impressed with its usefulness, however if its cost was to be reduced to (1/1/1), i might have considered taking a look into it, rather than just taking a single rank from said ability.

[Karadon_II]

Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

40/60 for me.

[DevilYouKnow]

40/60 for me.

Are you aware that this change will result in a nerf ?

I am not going to consider tempest if that happens. I rather tr back to being a pure barbarian.

Why do i have to play based on what others like to ? Why am i being forced to play their way ?

How is that fair devs ?

[Dandonk]

Are you aware that this change will result in a nerf ?

How is it a nerf? Every version listed results in the same percentage of up time, as far as I can tell?

[Alkusoittow]

I do not feel the final core ability is incentive enough for pure build. (same with deepwood stalker).

To make it more valuable, consider adding something like this:
-You can now use your dex modifier for hit/damage with heavy blades (or a specific blade like Khopesh or BS).

This would open up a lot of options for people, and would be a good incentive to go pure ranger. You don't have to worry about OP issues because you can't splash with kensai/paladin/monk as this requires lvl 20.

I, for one, would jump right on the pure ranger bandwagon if this were in place.

[Qhualor]

Tier 5 abilities are way to expensive for what they give.

Dance of Death: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage (2/2/2). Your basic attacks when dual wielding strike 2/3/4 targets per swing instead of one for 10 seconds. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Is not overall useful because as an AOE ability it won't be doing anything vs. bosses but rather just add a small amount of +W damage.

Overall i am not impressed with its usefulness, however if its cost was to be reduced to (1/1/1), i might have considered taking a look into it, rather than just taking a single rank from said ability.

Are you including doublestrike, the 2WF line and weapons that produce proc affects? With all that it's great with trash mobs.

For boss fights I wouldn't be relying on DoD. I would be relying on raw dps and any abilities that increase damage output and increases attack speed. Manyshot is also good on a boss fight.

[DevilYouKnow]

How is it a nerf? Every version listed results in the same percentage of up time, as far as I can tell?

It is pretty simpe. It is a nerf because you have to wait longer for it to activate.

For example :

10 sec duration and 15 sec cooldown will result in ---------------> 5 sec pause.

20 sec duration and 30s cooldown will result in ------------------> 10 sec pause (dps loss).

40 sec duration and 60s cooldown will result in -------------------> 20 sec pause (dps loss).

2 min duration and 3m cooldown will result in --------------------> 1 min pause (dps loss).

Overall as stated by the developer himself, would that be a dps loss by itself when increasing the duration/cooldown.

Overall, the longer the pause, the more dps you are going to loose.

[Dandonk]

It is pretty simpe. It is a nerf because you have to wait longer for it to activate.

For example :

10 sec duration and 15 sec cooldown will result in ---------------> 5 sec pause.

20 sec duration and 30s cooldown will result in ------------------> 10 sec pause (dps loss).

40 sec duration and 60s cooldown will result in -------------------> 20 sec pause (dps loss).

2 min duration and 3m cooldown will result in --------------------> 1 min pause (dps loss).

Overall as stated by the developer himself, would that be a dps loss by itself when increasing the duration/cooldown.

But over 2 minutes, each version will have the same total downtime. I do not understand, sorry.