Ranger: Tempest Changes

[Eryhn]

overall, I see some nice ideas but the package as a whole is pretty darn half cooked. needs to stew some more. assuming the first underlying baseline is to bring up dex rangers in dps while at the same time offering decent defenses in light armor because that seriously fell behind due to armor up pass and the second baseline is to wiggle out of the crit enhance corner you backed yourself in to of sort, this is the right direction but not consequently executed to the end.

problem a)
higher tier clickies you offer INSTEAD of a crit enhance are not by any means close enough in dps. this isnt talking from the perspective of somebody wanting a min max build on par with swash single target dps or pally or barb or such. this is thinking of first life toons that invest 18+ levels or pure in ranger and get the short end of the stick for their dedication

problem b)
the how to deal with holy sword and other multiclasses that would just abuse this pass to get YET more powa. The tree is not nearly enough back-end loaded. the stuff that becomes available in the last 3 cores needs to be much stronger in comparison to low investment in the class if you want to stick to denying the crit enhancement. as some already pointed out. atm, this begs you to go pally with ranger splash, but there is no encouragement to say, ah hell, ill just go pure.

problem c)
the deffensive bonuses are still too megere, too expensive and quit frankly not worth the tradedown of going full DEX build with the dps that currently offers.

problem d) a lot of the generally tasty looking stuff you put in there has totally excessive cooldowns. this is counterintuitive to the class roleplay wise (dual wielding rangers should weave through the mobs while quickly going from one attack to the next, there should be some feeling of elegance and flow as they use one badass two weapon skill after the other. it is also counterintuitive to hotbar usage. people do not like taking once per 1.5min clickies. well experienced players will be able to precisley gauge "how long will it take to next orange named, to next opt, to the boss - so i CAN in fact now use my dps clicky and it will recharge in time" (but still will find this needlessly bothersome) for newer players however this is bound to end in frustration as they more often than not lack their strongest abilities when they need them cause they just ill-opportunly used them on the last group of trash mobs ...

problem e) due to focusing on "we have to bring dex up so as to remedy the overperforming of med/heavy armor for melees" and due to the "we cannot give too much to STR builds, as this will widen the powergap created by min maxed splash builds" you have pretty much given the finger to 18 or 20 level STR ranger melee builds. what they get out of this in terms of letting them catch up at least enough to see the pally's or barbs backside INFRONT of them is plain laughable.


other than making defensive enhancements a bit more worthwhile/cost effective, please consider the notion of the blitz like evasive dance. if you are reluctant to put all too much defense into the passive enhances, dont put em into a one time button, but put in a weaker version that is somewhat sustainable and can somewhat reliably be peaked once or twice.
now, since we have been here already, why dont we apply the same to the top tier dps plz? if you have a 15sec/90cooldown clicky, then why not add another 30 sec during which the stack of buff dwindles down? or better yet, DO make it like blitz too, in terms of mechanics, start with some stack that can be built up (maybe come up with a ranger themed stack build mechanic, something like each time you hit more than 5 targets within 3 secs, gain one stack for 5 sec, hit 7+ targets within 3sec gain 2 stacks or whatever - didnt think through the numbers on this, just some concept example here)

look at it like this. your ranger is kinda running around, then becomes a killing machine or an evasion god for 15 seconds, then is forced to run around neigh 2 mins pretty unimpressively again. it is very stop and go. whereas as I see ranger melees they should start spinning and the more they spin the more elaborately and deadly they spin and the harder they are to be hit and the harder they slice out damage themselves. dont see that so much here.

btw, apart from your aversion of going for another crit enhance, and your somewhat single minded pursuit of "gotta bring that light armor melee defense up" the third theme seems to be "rangers shine against group mobs" and rightly so. but likewise, it isnt what it could be by a far cry. im aware this would bring with it some major rethinking, but if you would re-do at least 3, maybe even 4 of the stronger clickies as stack based, it would be much more in theme with the class, it would encourage people to play their roll of devastate the big mob groups, keep swinging and spinning, it would give players that feeling of chaining up attacks assosciated with ranger melee, and it would offer some leeway for the experienced players to milk this to the best of their abilities to keep the all of the stacks high at the same time, ideally...

apart from that, it really really pains a number of my toons that your focus on DEX for various reasons encourages me to throw away a bunch of STR based weapons I been storing for ranger pass.

1) my main is currently doing ETRs in a 18/2 bard fighter and using rapiers. However, due to the fact that years ago I started of as a then gimpy 14/6 warchanter dual wielding kopeshs I collected loads of them. I still have those kopeshs, I kept them for ranger and some other lives, specifically, and chose to not collect rapiers and shorts for offhand cause I have that kopesh stash. with your tree as it is, im gonna just skip the ranger lives and never do them, and do my pally lives in 15/5 or such, cause ranger gives me no good option to go STR based dual wield oversized. I would like my main to be somewhat able to contribute in an EE group, and with a neigh pure STR ranger in light armor dont rly see that atm. unless you want me to just ignore your half cooked defense increases and put her in heavy armor...

2) my 2ndry toon is a dwarf and for flavor reasons is supposed to stick to dwarven axes in any life. same deal as above, I feel not encouraged to build a pure or neigh pure dwarven waraxe ranger, at all.

3) i have a gimpy first life alt, elven warpriest with 2 ranger 2 fighter, using longswords with dex via elf tree. she kinda hoped for this pass to give her some options with regard to using longswords without investing overly much in racial. if she throws away her longswords, your tree is gonna ungimp her nicely. BUT WHY SHOULD I? didnt you argue for variety of choice? why can I not have an elven warpriest with deity feat longswords getting something useful out of that ranger tree, and maybe even be forced to consider to put more into ranger than those 2 levels for the feats?

long story short, whether you largely ignored STR because it is overall the higher buffable score, or if you ignored it because for the most part the min max splash builds use it and you didnt want to make them yet stronger, in doing so, you take out a whole lot of build choices, rather than making them more viable:

pretty please, lots of sugar on top, give us better options for oversized weapons, and let us chose more freely whether to build DEX or STR melee.

what powercreep that brings with it you should rather contain by back loading the dps and evasion goodies further up in the tree and especially, further up in the cores.

[Qhualor]

so Varg, I know you have been reading the thread. notice a trend what is being posted? comparing proposed changes to ranger to barb, pally, swashbuckler, mechanic, warlock and powerful splash builds. if you look at the tree itself without thinking about what those other classes have and how powerful they are, the DWS and Tempest trees are pretty well balanced overall. even I know that ranger still falls behind with these builds, but it doesn't mean there aren't improvements to the ranger here that make them better. as long as barb, pally, swashbuckler, etc are obviously the most powerful builds in the game, every proposal will be compared to them. if overall players don't feel any class is comparable to the top builds, than there wont be a significant increase in players wanting to play rangers beyond flavor. I will personally have one of my characters go back to playing a Tempest after hes done with his past lives (all I have left is 1x Shadar-kai FVS than off to epic past lives) and enjoy the improvements. I know nerfing is not something that a lot of players like, but in order to make classes better balanced than maybe its time to look at these powerful builds and see what exactly makes them come out ahead of the rest and make necessary changes. its probably the only way we can all have a reasonable discussion on making improvements to classes.

when it comes down to the math with what is proposed in the trees, I wont know how good they are until I actually play the new ranger. ive always been hands on and using variables for a more accurate read. for the most part it all looks good to me and represents what a "balanced" tree should look like, but I cant stress enough that rangers would be able to stand out significantly more if there could be a ranger spell pass and increased damage and saves against favored enemies. without that, ranger, specifically melee, will stay behind the other power builds. with that quality of life change, rangers could stand out and do comparable damage in specific situations.

[legendkilleroll]

Warlocks are like 3 months old, nothing here or in deepwood is going to compete with them, you already buffed four classes to insane levels. Then added a new one which is probably the worst of them all.

There is two options, first is tone down all the others so rangers arnt just gonna be stuck so far behind or 2nd, make improvements to these rangers trees so people will actually be interested in playing the class and competing with the others. You look to be taking option 3 which is having the other classes OP and rangers left behind which is just a very bad decision.

Also if your only adding melee/ranged power, PRR/MRR, couple other tweaks why is this just one pass, may aswell just add these to arty and fighter too, please roll up and warlock and just see what they are capable of, then take one of these guys and see how far behind you are.

[Eth]

Looks like an awesome tree if combined with holy sword.
Guess ranger remains the eternal "stop at lvl 6" class mutt.

[Eth]

Am I wrong here?

Dual Perfection: (2 AP) Your off hand weapon now adds your full attribute damage modifier. (For instance, if you have 30 Strength, you'll gain +10 damage with your offhand weapon, like your main hand weapon.)

normally you get half your modifier. so if you have 30 str thats 10/2 = 5. so if your now getting the full 10, then the benefit for 2ap is 5 damage. seems expensive for a tier 5 and underpowered. perhaps if it doubled your modifier for both hands. giving main hand 2x10 and off hand 2x10/2 = 10 then it would be a bit better for 2ap.

Well, you are not wrong, but 30 main stat is certainly not a standard (heck, 30 is something you have in mid heroics with average gear).

If you take a more realistic main damage stat you are usually in the 60s+. Which would be 12+ extra damage for your offhand.
Is 12+ offhand damage worth 2 AP? Yes. Yes, it is.

[Loromir]

Uh? Where's the AA Changes?

Are you going to also take a look at giving Elf AA some love {making it more feasible for Clerics/Souls of the Silver Flame}?

They have already announced AA changes will come AFTER U28...but before U29.

[DevilYouKnow]

warlocks are like 3 months old, nothing here or in deepwood is going to compete with them, you already buffed four classes to insane levels. Then added a new one which is probably the worst of them all.

There is two options, first is tone down all the others so rangers arnt just gonna be stuck so far behind or 2nd, make improvements to these rangers trees so people will actually be interested in playing the class and competing with the others. You look to be taking option 3 which is having the other classes op and rangers left behind which is just a very bad decision.

Also if your only adding melee/ranged power, prr/mrr, couple other tweaks why is this just one pass, may aswell just add these to arty and fighter too, please roll up and warlock and just see what they are capable of, then take one of these guys and see how far behind you are.

[/quote]

said this before, but since it's come up a few times in this thread:

• nobody's forcing anyone to play particular builds or styles! You are free to play what you want.
• our goal is to create the building blocks for characters and playstyles, so various players can find one or more they enjoy playing.
• some players believe that top dps is the only "good" way to make a character.
  
  • as a result, feel "forced" to take certain things when they are top dps, and "forced" to not take everything else when it isn't.
  • it's definitely one method, and that's what you like playing, great! But that's not the only style people play (not by a long shot), and it's certainly not the only playstyle we build enhancements, items, and abilities for.
  
  
• play what you want, it's up to you.

[DevilYouKnow]

What about nerfing warlocks? Warlocks are more overpowered than all 3 of those classes put together. half a party of warlocks will kill everything before the other half has a chance to beat one down one trashmob on EE.

Since that is the newest class and benchmark, nothing here is overpowered, by comparison very very underpowered and the other prementioned melee classes are underpowered compared to warlock. If everyone is so overpowered, i'd expect not to see EN or EH on half of the LFMs.

Just let them. Remember what the dev said about that ?

said this before, but since it's come up a few times in this thread:

• nobody's forcing anyone to play particular builds or styles! You are free to play what you want.
• our goal is to create the building blocks for characters and playstyles, so various players can find one or more they enjoy playing.
• some players believe that top dps is the only "good" way to make a character.
  
  • as a result, feel "forced" to take certain things when they are top dps, and "forced" to not take everything else when it isn't.
  • it's definitely one method, and that's what you like playing, great! But that's not the only style people play (not by a long shot), and it's certainly not the only playstyle we build enhancements, items, and abilities for.
  
  
• play what you want, it's up to you.

[DevilYouKnow]

Good changes, if not flashy.

Question: Some places indicate the Whirlwind Doublestrike bonus is Enhancement typed. Meaning it does not stack with items. I am not sure if that information is out of date or not, but can you please verify this stacks with items? No one wants a core (level 18 core at that) which is obsolete by gear almost as soon as it shows up.


Fair changes.


Not too impressed with this tier.

The PRR buy is just too expensive (10 prr for 6 points isnt even 2prr/point), and now that the tree adds more PRR its worth less proportionally. I understand that lowering this to 1ap ea is probably not the right direction to go since it would require lowering the prr values. Instead, Id like to see the PRR come up a bit to be worth that 2 ap per level. Going to +4/8/12 (literally 2prr/ap) seems a simply and minor adjustment.

Likewise, the dodge buy is a bit suspect. It not only requires a feat, but a pre-req, effectively making the cost 6ap for 3 dodge (and the feat slot cost but you get the usual return, just lose the choice). I feel like thats a bit of a heavy cost to pay given that at this point in the purchasing there is nothing to increase the dodge cap yet.


Fair changes.

Storm dancer is a decent return, though enemy resistances may persuade people not to take it, but its fine to have a choice in that regard. I think given that tempests are about "effects" it might be nice to see a burst effect here as well. Maybe instead of just shocking, it could be shocking burst? That might help make it a little bit more consistently worth having.

Improved Mobility is another area which is a bit suspect. At this point youre into the line for 2 feats, and 9 ap. And you still only get 3 dodge and 3 dodge cap (plus the usual feats). Thats an extremely deep buy in cost for a minor return. By comparison Ninja Spy gets the same thing (3 dodge and 3 dodge cap) using T1/T2 enhancements with zero feat requirements. I just feel given the heavy demands on feats, tying up essentially two feats and over 10% of your characters AP to get what amounts to 3 dodge (if youre at cap before buying this, this line nets you 3 dodge and raises the cap by 3). The effects are fine, and even the placement is fine. But the net costs just get too steep, relative to what other choices Tempests could make, and what other classes pay for similar.


Good changes.

The new Elaborate Parry is a success. The timing and size of the bonus are very appropriate for the design space, and relative to other options. This is an ability I am happy to see.

Like before, I think Storm Tempest is a bit smallish (even at 200 melee power its 6d6 or 20 dmg per hit... mobs with 5-10 resistance degrade it massively relative to most realistic character values). Maybe this could change the scaling to 200% melee power as well as upping the dice or something. I just think this line is something that will be great in heroic, and then sort of drop off in epic. I'd just like to see it maintain relevance. Maybe the first one could be 1d6 plus burst, and this one could be 2d6 plus Lit2. Lots of ideas I'm sure just give it a look.


Great changes.

Like Elaborate Parry, the new Thousand Cuts is very modern and appealing, and plays well with several of the other abilities. This is another ability I am happy to see.

Dual Perfection is likewise something that was mechanically needed for this class to really shrug off a portion of math issues regarding the build, and I am glad to see it addressed readily.

Question though, for Dance of Death, was any consideration given to the "reach" involved? There was a thread some time back examining how hard it is to get twf to reach far enough to ever really catch more than 2 mobs with this, without "perfect alignment" kinds of things happening. I am hoping that as part of the pass, this can be looked at. Maybe if it cant be made "easier" to catch more mobs (ie, the ability adjusts the reach in terms of distance and arc of attack while active) then perhaps it could be made to last 20s with a 30s cd, similar to a regular boost. Then it would at least be less micromanagement to utilize it at reduced effectiveness, while having the exact same uptime/downtime ratio it has now.

Likewise, Dance of Death should really drop to 1/1/1 costing as well. As it stands, even with adjustments as suggested, its really best for a T1 dip given the high strain of enhancements for melee rangers. At 1/1/1 it may be worth trying to pick up extra levels for those rare occasions it helps... but at 2 each its just not going to happen. Hopefully the cost can get brought in line as well.

----------

Overall this is a decent pass. The added melee power and prr, as well as the T4/5s, will help make it modern. The overall AP costs are still a bit high... and there are some things which are still lacking. The dodge increases are too costly for a "skirmish" style class, and some of the abilities (storm dancer, dance of death) are either easily mitigated by mobs, or easily mitigated by the collision system of twf. I would like to see those "unique" things focused on to be sure they actually deliver, same with the lv18 core doublestrike stacking just be sure it works on top of other things. Otherwise the tree will wash out in "effective" choices and just sort of be the same thing as it is now but with slightly bigger numbers. Good potential for a first draft, I hope it can get polished up.

/signed

Please make it so devs.

[Lonnbeimnech]

My thoughts on this: if those are the changes for Tempest tree, you can just spare the effort because nobody is gonna use it after all. This is not what the game has turned about.

I love Tempests and played like 6 ePL with a pure 20 ranger using random scimitars from eveningstar challenges. I love flavour, and I didn't care the absolutely lack of GOOD named scimitars (where's the CITW one? Or maybe the one from MOD or FOT, etc?), but If we are getting a pass, we need some reason to TR into a ranger again, and this tree is not a good one.

Please, add scimitar mastery (range, multipliers) at 18 or 20.

They have that, it's called khopesh proficiency.

[tapster]

I know it's been said before and this is a ranger thread but Holy Sword is the problem. Swashy is limited by SWF/SM feat investment, light weapons and armour, but you only need to splash 3 levels to get most of the goodies. Barbs pretty much have to be pure unless you're only taking supreme cleave.

Holy sword goes with anything else. It's just too overpowered along with the DR on heavy shadowscale. These are the two single most imbalancing things in the game as far as I'm concerned. (Yes I know warlock is stood in the corner but let's put a pin in that for now - with a nod to bladeforged/pally/warlock)

You either have to look at ways of providing other means of achieving the DR of heavy shadowscale (why only heavy armour? it's a fantasy game innit, make it compatible with light or medium, because...magic.)

Holy sword is easy - drop one of the adders or make it a selector. Simple. Still powerful x1 crit range or x1 crit multiplier but not both.

Without either of these then all other toons are just flavour.

Right re-lurking now.

[DevilYouKnow]

They have that, it's called khopesh proficiency.

This. You really want to use khopesh, even if you have to waste a feat on that. It is the best one handed weapon.

[DevilYouKnow]

I know it's been said before and this is a ranger thread but Holy Sword is the problem. Swashy is limited by SWF/SM feat investment, light weapons and armour, but you only need to splash 3 levels to get most of the goodies. Barbs pretty much have to be pure unless you're only taking supreme cleave.

Holy sword goes with anything else. It's just too overpowered along with the DR on heavy shadowscale. These are the two single most imbalancing things in the game as far as I'm concerned. (Yes I know warlock is stood in the corner but let's put a pin in that for now - with a nod to bladeforged/pally/warlock)

You either have to look at ways of providing other means of achieving the DR of heavy shadowscale (why only heavy armour? it's a fantasy game innit, make it compatible with light or medium, because...magic.)

Holy sword is easy - drop one of the adders or make it a selector. Simple. Still powerful x1 crit range or x1 crit multiplier but not both.

Without either of these then all other toons are just flavour.

Right re-lurking now.

If you don't like holy sword, then just play a pure ranger. They are pretty good now with the changes.

[Arkai]

This. You really want to use khopesh, even if you have to waste a feat on that. It is the best one handed weapon.

NO.

I want to use scimitars, as all that Drizzt stuff. And all the named scimitars in the game that I did care to collect.

I do not want to become a Paladin with a 20 flavour build, just spend less than a minute to kill a single mob in EE.

[Lonnbeimnech]

NO.

I want to use scimitars, as all that Drizzt stuff. And all the named scimitars in the game that I did care to collect.

I do not want to become a Paladin with a 20 flavour build, just spend less than a minute to kill a single mob in EE.

Drizzt has more fighter levels than rangers levels...

Drizzt Do’Urden

Male drow Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 of Mielikki: CR 17; Medium-size humanoid (elf); HD 10d10+20 plus 1d12+2 plus 5d10+10; hp 124; Init +9; Spd 40 ft.; AC 23 (touch 14, flat-footed 19); Atk +17/+12/+7/+2 melee (1d6+6 plus 1d6 cold/18–20, +3 frost scimitar), +16/+11 melee (1d6+4/18–20, +2 defending scimitar); SQ Drow traits, favored enemy (goblins +2, magical beasts +1), light blindness, rage, spell-like abilities; SR 27; AL CG; SV Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +7; Str 13, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14. Height 5 ft. 4 in.

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article....fr/fx20010117d

[DevilYouKnow]

NO.

I want to use scimitars, as all that Drizzt stuff. And all the named scimitars in the game that I did care to collect.

I do not want to become a Paladin with a 20 flavour build, just spend less than a minute to kill a single mob in EE.

Why do you want to use weak weaponry ?

[Saekee]

Since people are mentioning dual-wielding with heavy blades, is there the free feat somewhere in the tree? I know that to-hit has faded as an issue, but it could be added to the cores (like level 12 core, You gain: feat, Oversized TWF or whatever it is called.

Also: would adding glancing blows when TWF in this tree somehow make up for the lack of DPS everyone is noting?

Also, as I mentioned, I want guardbreaking and cloudburst in Tier 5

[Lonnbeimnech]

Looks like an awesome tree if combined with holy sword.
Guess ranger remains the eternal "stop at lvl 6" class mutt.

They still have the option of adding a few ranger spells in the level 3 and 4 range to entice players into going deeper into ranger.

Are there any offensive ranger spells in any splat books?

[Arkai]

Why do you want to use weak weaponry ?

Because the core's second ability:

Tempest: ...While you are dual wielding, you can use your dexterity modifier to hit with light melee weapons. You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons.

My builds were full dex to get good reflex saves and apply dex mod to damage. I thought this was a good idea but after several ranger lives and seeing the other passes, I felt it is not competitive anymore and just gave up on the class.

[DevilYouKnow]

Since people are mentioning dual-wielding with heavy blades, is there the free feat somewhere in the tree? I know that to-hit has faded as an issue, but it could be added to the cores (like level 12 core, You gain: feat, Oversized TWF or whatever it is called.

Also: would adding glancing blows when TWF in this tree somehow make up for the lack of DPS everyone is noting?

Also, as I mentioned, I want guardbreaking and cloudburst in Tier 5

You mean lack of aoe dps ? Just use dance of death.