Casualization at its peaks. What are your thoughts?

[Deadlock]

Wonna bet that sentient weapons will introduce a new ingredient type that will have apsolutely nothing to do with cov?
Taking into account former experience, i am quite confident i might win if you take the bet xD

Fairly detailed proposals for being able to exchange any currency for another have been put forward already. At it's extreme end, a bajillion prayer beads can be traded up for astral shards. It's long overdue and ensures that everything has some notion of value. Especially true in the city that was founded on trade and barter.

Benefits everyone from casuals to hardcores. There will be inevitable disagreements on the exact exchange rates between different commodities, but you only need to take a look into a dozen or so veteran (non-duping) players bags to see what collectables and ingredients they have acquired over the years.

[Blackheartox]

Fairly detailed proposals for being able to exchange any currency for another have been put forward already. At it's extreme end, a bajillion prayer beads can be traded up for astral shards. It's long overdue and ensures that everything has some notion of value. Especially true in the city that was founded on trade and barter.

Benefits everyone from casuals to hardcores. There will be inevitable disagreements on the exact exchange rates between different commodities, but you only need to take a look into a dozen or so veteran (non-duping) players bags to see what collectables and ingredients they have acquired over the years.

Heh, yea looking at mine, for example shadow crypt scarabs...
Silly ammount, also red bag full of random items that have never found a use in the game beyond simply collecting dust.
Its a nice idea tho.

[jalont]

what makes you think it is the elite players that are jumping ship, ever think that it's the casuals that have decided they have had enough of the "need to run EE or you suxorz noob!" and have opted to take their time and disposable incomes someplace else a little less hostile?

This is just ridiculous. It is a fact that the game has gotten easier and more focused to casuals as the game has lost population. So... you're saying that as the game has become more focused on casuals, it has pushed casuals away? You can't honestly believe that.

[brian14]

Heh, yea looking at mine, for example shadow crypt scarabs...
Silly ammount, also red bag full of random items that have never found a use in the game beyond simply collecting dust.
Its a nice idea tho.

As far as I am concerned, the most useless "currency" at this point are Draconic Runes. Back on her first life my main crafted pretty much perfect armor, good into low 20's, but that's it. I hate Reaver quests, especially Monastery, so none of my other characters ever flagged for Stealer of Souls. I think (it may be just a rumor) that Draconic Runes can be traded for Guild Renown, but since you have to run SoS before you can trade them for anything, they are just taking up space.

[FranOhmsford]

This is just ridiculous. It is a fact that the game has gotten easier and more focused to casuals as the game has lost population. So... you're saying that as the game has become more focused on casuals, it has pushed casuals away? You can't honestly believe that.

Funny.. I don't think Heroic Wheloon is easier than Heroic Gianthold or Orchard - In fact I'd say that it's a heck of a lot harder!

Harbinger and Reign of Madness have some of the Hardest Heroic Quests in the game in them!

For vets there's always the "I've been playing this game for years now and experience has made it easy" and the Gear and TRs we've earned make it even easier!
BUT
For Newbies this game is just as hard now as it ever was!!!

Probably harder in fact as there's far less of them and they have to jump straight into Elites if they ever want to join a group with us vets!!!

[jalont]

Funny.. I don't think Heroic Wheloon is easier than Heroic Gianthold or Orchard - In fact I'd say that it's a heck of a lot harder!

Harbinger and Reign of Madness have some of the Hardest Heroic Quests in the game in them!

For vets there's always the "I've been playing this game for years now and experience has made it easy" and the Gear and TRs we've earned make it even easier!
BUT
For Newbies this game is just as hard now as it ever was!!!

Probably harder in fact as there's far less of them and they have to jump straight into Elites if they ever want to join a group with us vets!!!

Everything is much easier compared to the way it used to be because of the increase in player power.

[pHo3nix]

The attitude of "Bring your main destiny" is a bad attitude to have when that simply means it will be even longer before more casual players actually get to a point where they have the vastly more important FATE SLOTS!


The problem is that we have people like Overvaan {the OP} complaining that no-one's running EE while ALSO complaining about People like me not contributing in EE {Over's never attacked me but others certainly have!}.
EE is NOT easy for the majority of players - Heck the majority of players LEAVE THE GAME before hitting LVL 10!!!
If the majority of LFMs are on EN or EH it's because outside these forums there just isn't that many players actually CAPABLE in EEs!!!

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the Rewards of EE - If your toon is going to die in the FIRST Fight then you're NOT going to be running EEs!!!

Then what? Run EH/EN in whatever destiny you want with whatever build you want, nobody is going to get upset about it. The fact is that the difference in difficulty (time spent/risk of dieing) between EH and EE is quite huge while the difference in reward is almost non existant. After you run EE the 1st time for favor/BB there aren't many reasons to run EE again, unless there's EE tiered loot you want.

In theory, giving incentives to run EEs would be an incentive for people to become better players. If people don't want to become better players, they can always run EH/EN and live just fine.

There are 1)people that already run EEs, 2)people that might want to run EE and want to improve themselves, 3)people that don't care about EEs and 4)people that don't want to improve to run EEs but feel entitled to loot/favor from EE.

I'll let you guess which category creates problems

[Chai]

what makes you think it is the elite players that are jumping ship, ever think that it's the casuals that have decided they have had enough of the "need to run EE or you suxorz noob!" and have opted to take their time and disposable incomes someplace else a little less hostile?

Because no one needs to run EE. The claims are far more rampant about this on the forums than there are people like this in game.

Most MMOs are more hostile, with lower average ages and a more forced grind and gear check mentality.

[Gremmlynn]

Because a PvP system usually gives players a reason to farm gear. As it stands now, there's no reason to farm anything. There's no actual reason to get anything. It makes it all seem so hollow. There's no "real" reward system because the rewards don't actually matter.

No, a PvP system generally gives players without gear a huge incentive to avoid PvP (if possible).

That isn't what I'm saying at all. But what does a player who only plays EN/EH need to farm? Absolutely nothing. They have no challenges to overcome. The things they farm will have no point. The rewards do not matter. Powergamers are in the exact same boat. There is no challenge, thus there is no "real" reward to farm anything. To get anything. It's all weird. Without challenges to overcome, everything becomes hollow.

Personally, I find farming gear pretty hollow. So I guess opinions vary on this issue.

[Vint]

Hardcore players putting down more casual players, accusing them of not having any goals etc., is not going to "encourage" them to join you...

There is a big difference is this, Hal.

Let’s just say that you have never played the board game Monopoly before so you decide to pick it up from the store and play it. When you get home you decide that you cannot wait to play so you disregard reading instructions and manuals because it will just take away time that you could be playing Monopoly.

You pay no attention to the instructions and decide to bring the game back to the store because it is too difficult and you are not having fun in a game that you don’t understand.

This is why I have little sympathy for many of the people you are referring too. They could care less about learning game mechanics; they just want to go kill “the bad guys”.

I could care less if anyone in this game has goals or if they are a terrible player. I do not judge people because they cannot solo casual, but I refuse to believe that “elitist” are the problem when the problem originated with people that refuse to learn the game. If they invest no time into figuring out how to play (like the Monopoly scenario), then it is on them and not the community.

[jalont]

Because no one needs to run EE. The claims are far more rampant about this on the forums than there are people like this in game.

Most MMOs are more hostile, with lower average ages and a more forced grind and gear check mentality.

Further, the attitudes towards casuals has gotten much better as the game has lost population. At its peak, there was actually a chance of failure for raids, and most raids often had requirements to join, such as 200 hp, link harry beaters. Whatever. This doesn't exist anymore.

[Paleus]

For vets there's always the "I've been playing this game for years now and experience has made it easy" and the Gear and TRs we've earned make it even easier!
BUT
For Newbies this game is just as hard now as it ever was!!!

Probably harder in fact as there's far less of them and they have to jump straight into Elites if they ever want to join a group with us vets!!!

This pretty much sums up the problem of playing an aging game. It feels super easy for long time vets through a combination of meta knowledge, gear, and general character power. But its still pretty daunting for the new player. For example, a person who doesn't know whats around that corner will go around it slower to avoid rushing headlong into a trap. Te person that's basically Tom Cruising it thinking as soon as I turn the corner I jump at an 80 degree angle, shoot a fireball to kill three mobs and then turn right to drop a web at the other group of mobs. Each of those little decision points will eventually add up to the point that a new player is just tagging along.

Since I'm guessing a lot of people tend to join MMOs for the multiplayer experience it makes new player recruitment and retention hard when the population is filled with either closed doors grouping or I will insta-boot you for even sneezing the wrong way (ok, a bit of an exaggeration). There isn't much Turbine can do other than simplify some of the game for new players to help with their recruitment, which aggravates vets. Of course, vets reasonably feel no obligation to help train up new players to a level of competence. That leaves you with expecting new players to spend hours researching game wikis or trial and error solo'ing the quests (because honestly, have you seen an LFM for normal or expect that if a new player posts an LFM for normal it will get filled up). That's not exactly a winning recruitment strategy so we're stuck with declining populations.

[JOTMON]

Further, the attitudes towards casuals has gotten much better as the game has lost population. At its peak, there was actually a chance of failure for raids, and most raids often had requirements to join, such as 200 hp, link harry beaters. Whatever. This doesn't exist anymore.

Its not relative anymore.. you are out of context with your statement.
when level 16 was endgame and shroud was the raid to run.. that's when you had our lfm requirements.
People are now running shroud levels 18-28 for ingredients for crafting and don't care about the XP. Raids were never about the pitiful XP anyway just run with whatever high level toons you have.

Deathwyrm and Peaks, and even FOT are now the endgame raid and they still fail when run above EN.
a 350hp toon in EE FOT is still deadweight and likely a subpar contributor.

DR breakers are now irrelevant since augments and many loot junk drops, crafting... give many options to craft or purchse DR breakers.

[nokowi]

(sorry for not being clear in opening as it was really late when i started this thread, my posts will slowly show what i initialy thought, best sumerized in post 19)

Whole epic lfm is full with mainly eh/en lfms.
First day and i alrdy dont like it.
Seed change backfired exactly as i thought it would. Might be to soon to make a conclusion. But currently it feels like this and it is going into this direction.
I mean everyone feels the same that now its a matter of efficiency to run lower difficulty.
Was this expected? Yes.
But do we really need to trivialize ddo so much?
Can we get at least some promise that running epic elite content will offer some reward that is actually worth it.

At least the ee/eh/en loot system. Something, anything, as i fear if the next update will have btaoa loot with same stats no matter the difficulty, there will be no real reason for the Epic elite setting.
I know, many will say do it for the challenge, but shouldnt challenge be somehow be rewarded?

Opinions welcome and i encourage people to discuss this, as i am highly interested what community thinks how ddo should be difficulty wise and what you think about current direction ddo is taking.

My opinion:
Personally, i dislike it as i am losing sight of running hardest content on hardest setting.
Any other mmo, has different values and loot system depending on what you run content on.
Higher tier difficulty = better rewards /titles/ladder boards.
Ddo should not be a exception in that regard and should reward higher skilled players with something to make them feel a sense of achievment and progress /for example loot titles/ theras encouraging everyone to get better.

It's a tough call here, as I see several things going on.

1. Certainly it would be nice to be rewarded to run EE content, or to at least get something for the extra amount of time it takes to run on EE.
2. One of the current issues is that new/casual/less skilled (pick one) players are joining EE groups when EN or EH might be more appropriate to their build/destiny/skill (pick one) level.

Benefits of the change:
New and casual players will find it easier to get into groups
Players may feel they can now run their choice of quests that are enjoyable for them rather than picking the highest com quests.


Drawbacks of the change:
Elite/experienced/powerbuild (pick one) players want to feel elite, and the current changes actually penalize them (time wise) for playing content that is challenging. Yes elite players want challenging and enjoyable content, but they don't want to be penalized for running it.


As to my personal opinion, I think the good outweighs the bad. I would like to see incentives for EE content to be played:

1. Having EN,EH, and EE (bound on equip) versions of gear does provide that reward for the extra time spent on EE. This fuels an astral shard market and earns ddo money.

2. Make favor rewards good enough for elite players to stick with EE's (+6 tome for all favor in game, anyone?)

3. ????

[Gremmlynn]

Fairly detailed proposals for being able to exchange any currency for another have been put forward already. At it's extreme end, a bajillion prayer beads can be traded up for astral shards. It's long overdue and ensures that everything has some notion of value. Especially true in the city that was founded on trade and barter.

Benefits everyone from casuals to hardcores. There will be inevitable disagreements on the exact exchange rates between different commodities, but you only need to take a look into a dozen or so veteran (non-duping) players bags to see what collectables and ingredients they have acquired over the years.

Benefits everyone from casuals to hard cores except maybe Turbine, who happen to be the only one's who matter when it comes to implementing it, would likely be closer to the truth.

Good luck at getting AS to be anything but a pure $ to AS conversion, at least as far as new AS coming into the game.

[Strider1963]

Whats the problem with doing epic en/eh?? Some people haven't worked their way to the elite tier yet, and others are more casual players and want to do more quests faster than the opposite.... but YES, I do agree that doing EE should have a much better reward than en or eh, its a no brainer.

[Talonaise]

I find this thread odd, The OP had a question, and it brought the haters out of the woodwork.

One answer I see a lot is that if DDO is too easy then it is up to the player to in some way make the game more challenging. Suggestions have included everything from changing gear to rolling up gimp toons and running them. Should we also close our eyes as we play? This seems stupid. The fact is, my uber toon is not done yet! Yes it can blast through the content, but it still is not totally tweaked out. The design of the game actually encourages people to work with and maximize a toon. Obviously Turbine intended this since they just updated TRs with Epic Trs. I think the OP's point was, if this is the case and is what turbine wants in order to keep us playing, then add difficult content to go with this cycle.

I am a firm believer in the tiered loot system. Some have complained about this yet, at the same time, they are the same people who say they never touch EE , unless it is the one and done favor run. So my point, why do you care? Give five seeds for an EE -- if you never run EE, your life has not changed at all. So you throw a bone to the top end players, WHO CARES? I believe that more effort should be rewarded.

I also think the sense of entitlement in this game is ridiculous. "I pay my money so I should be the best!" How often do we hear this? It even becomes more hilarious when you realize that many of these "payers" are f2p. What is next? I downloaded the game, give me my thunderforged gear already made and in my inventory! This is the argument of a five year old.

[Gremmlynn]

Because no one needs to run EE. The claims are far more rampant about this on the forums than there are people like this in game.

Most MMOs are more hostile, with lower average ages and a more forced grind and gear check mentality.

Here it's mostly just the forums that are that way.

[Talonaise]

Its not relative anymore.. you are out of context with your statement.
when level 16 was endgame and shroud was the raid to run.. that's when you had our lfm requirements.
People are now running shroud levels 18-28 for ingredients for crafting and don't care about the XP. Raids were never about the pitiful XP anyway just run with whatever high level toons you have.

Deathwyrm and Peaks, and even FOT are now the endgame raid and they still fail when run above EN.
a 350hp toon in EE FOT is still deadweight and likely a subpar contributor.

DR breakers are now irrelevant since augments and many loot junk drops, crafting... give many options to craft or purchse DR breakers.

Agreed Jot,

The difference today -- We fill the EH/EE raids in channel and with friends. No one would ever put one up in the LFM, and for EN, who cares.

[Gremmlynn]

There is a big difference is this, Hal.

Let’s just say that you have never played the board game Monopoly before so you decide to pick it up from the store and play it. When you get home you decide that you cannot wait to play so you disregard reading instructions and manuals because it will just take away time that you could be playing Monopoly.

You pay no attention to the instructions and decide to bring the game back to the store because it is too difficult and you are not having fun in a game that you don’t understand.

This is why I have little sympathy for many of the people you are referring too. They could care less about learning game mechanics; they just want to go kill “the bad guys”.

I could care less if anyone in this game has goals or if they are a terrible player. I do not judge people because they cannot solo casual, but I refuse to believe that “elitist” are the problem when the problem originated with people that refuse to learn the game. If they invest no time into figuring out how to play (like the Monopoly scenario), then it is on them and not the community.

Outside of the tool tips here and there, I can't seem to find those rules and instructions in the game box.