Casualization at its peaks. What are your thoughts?

[Ungood]

This is just ridiculous. It is a fact that the game has gotten easier and more focused to casuals as the game has lost population. So... you're saying that as the game has become more focused on casuals, it has pushed casuals away? You can't honestly believe that.

I am saying that this game has not focused on casuals.

[HAL]

This is just ridiculous. It is a fact that the game has gotten easier and more focused to casuals as the game has lost population. So... you're saying that as the game has become more focused on casuals, it has pushed casuals away? You can't honestly believe that.

For those of us who have played DDO for a while, many aspects of the game are easy. But that doesn't mean that it is easy for new players. The fact is that DDO is one of the more challenging MMOs starting from character creation. Many players have never played D&D and so are daunted by the complexity of creating a good character. (Improving character Paths could go a long way to helping new players.) Active combat can also be challenging for those who are used to locked-targeting. And as has been discussed ad nauseum on these forums: grouping is also challenging to casual players. (Mainly because of the attitudes of some more experienced players.)

Yes, Turbine seems to be trying to make the game more attractive to casual players. And those who really like D&D or who are amenable to taking on some of the challenges of DDO may stay and find the game fun. But even with the changes there are many casual players (I have known some) who are just not able to get past the challenging aspects of the game. And once they reach the portion of the game that requires grinding to gain some of the better gear, those who are interested in better gear may lose patience.

[HAL]

There is a big difference is this, Hal.

Let’s just say that you have never played the board game Monopoly before so you decide to pick it up from the store and play it. When you get home you decide that you cannot wait to play so you disregard reading instructions and manuals because it will just take away time that you could be playing Monopoly.

You pay no attention to the instructions and decide to bring the game back to the store because it is too difficult and you are not having fun in a game that you don’t understand.

This is why I have little sympathy for many of the people you are referring too. They could care less about learning game mechanics; they just want to go kill “the bad guys”.

I could care less if anyone in this game has goals or if they are a terrible player. I do not judge people because they cannot solo casual, but I refuse to believe that “elitist” are the problem when the problem originated with people that refuse to learn the game. If they invest no time into figuring out how to play (like the Monopoly scenario), then it is on them and not the community.

First, you ascribe an attitude to people you don't even know. You don't know what they care about or not.

Second, the Monopoly rules are in the box. All games should be able to be played without research. Research may be fun for some but is considered "work" by many and games are played to have fun not to work. In all other MMOs that I have played, you learn how to play as you actually play the game. There is no research required. Some very enthusiastic players may find it fun to collaborate with other players on character creation or play strategy but it shouldn't be required and certainly no one should look down on a player for not participating in it.

[nokowi]

I was simply giving an example of how Turbine goes from one extreme to the next. My biggest concern with the exact same system as running EDA 20× for a heart of wood is that now epics will mirror heroics with xp grind. Now there is less incentive to run EE when many people asked for a reasonable reduction or pitting Comms in chests. It does make a lot of players happier now, but its another easy path.

I'm not trying to win any argument or play word games. I was right out in front in those "4200 Comms is too much" threads rallying for something better. Practically giving away hearts of wood wasn't what I had in mind and I seriously doubt others did too. It seems we both wanted the same outcome, but it appears we have different views on what's best for the game.

I don't think this one is just giving players an easy pass. It is a direct response to what players did not like (being forced to grind comms after reaching level 28, or being forced to run a very specific sequence of quests to get 4200 comms by level 28). I believe many players have chosen to buy hearts of wood rather than grind comms. Turbine made their money off the current system (the latest dupefest probably ruined their monetization of hearts anyway) and they are moving to a system that is more enjoyable to the casual player.

I don't mind the model of making new things difficult to get, but making them easier over time. This gives both the hardcore and casual players things to do and actually meets both of their needs --> Not that both wont gripe about too hard/too easy as this progression occurs.

+1 to the dev's for listening to the players - keep up the good work!

[Ungood]

Because no one needs to run EE. The claims are far more rampant about this on the forums than there are people like this in game.

Sure there is, Even if I was to overlook the "If you want to be one of the cool kids you need to run EE" stigma that saturates this game, there are many other mechanically put in reasons to run Elite.

There is still the:

• If you want the favor rewards you need to run EE
• If you want the purple loot (This is a WoW Joke) but there is Tiered loot based on the difficulty you run, and if you want the best version, then you need to run EE
• If you want the most heart seeds you need to run EE
• If you want to keep the streak you need to run EE
• Some items only drop on Elite

Really, there is a lot of pressure to run EE in this game mechanics themselves, as such you are basically punished in this game if you do not run EE, and since EE is slated towards Twitch Masters with min/max builds, they are pretty much totally out of the range of most casuals and what would pass as "Average players"

And let be real here, No one likes to only be able to play "Half the Game" and because of such, I have zero doubt that Casual players after being treated like second class citizens have moved on, and you have to have noticed it as well, even if you turned a blind eye to it, I mean have you really not noticed that some of the incentives to run Elite have slowly been going away? Are you really so blind to think that this was done to keep the elite players placated or that Turbine cared what was said on the forums? Hogwash!

Here is the wake up call, Casual and Average Players left in frustration and took their money with them, they quietly moved on without needing to do the "Look at me strut out the door in my drama queen dress" routine that some players can't help but do. But none the less they walked away, and even if the oh high and mighty Hard Core players did not notice their departure, Turbine sure did.

But Turbine can't change a game overnight, development takes times, it takes work, so while they very well may have been bleeding players, it's not been the "big boys" or the vaunted "Hard Core" players, but the quiet ones that just without a word pack up and leave. No one would know, surely not you, or anyone on these forums.

[JOTMON]

First, you ascribe an attitude to people you don't even know. You don't know what they care about or not.

Second, the Monopoly rules are in the box. All games should be able to be played without research. Research may be fun for some but is considered "work" by many and games are played to have fun not to work. In all other MMOs that I have played, you learn how to play as you actually play the game. There is no research required. Some very enthusiastic players may find it fun to collaborate with other players on character creation or play strategy but it shouldn't be required and certainly no one should look down on a player for not participating in it.

Research does come in different forms, its not all about reading course material,.. talking to players, youtube video's, chats, forums.. are all sources for research.

This is the wrong game to play if you don't want to do research...most complicated games benefit from research. especially games like DDO.
DDO is based on D&D which is a complicated indepth game this level of complexity is what draws most players to the game.

Cookie cutter builds, and point and shoot gamers would be out of their element here.
try asking "what is the best build" .. there is no 1 answer.
DDO is not about 1 best build and here's the cookie cutter template for you to follow.. now you will win everything everywhere and nothing will beat you...

Research on enhancements, gear, feats, Epic destinies, mob strengths/weaknesses, ... its all useful.

Starting a game from scratch is trial and error for most players, research makes this process go by faster.
You don't need research to play kortho's.. but by the time you get to Gianthold you should be inmeshed into the game enough that you want to do research..

[HAL]

Research does come in different forms, its not all about reading course material,.. talking to players, youtube video's, chats, forums.. are all sources for research.

This is the wrong game to play if you don't want to do research...most complicated games benefit from research. especially games like DDO.
DDO is based on D&D which is a complicated indepth game this level of complexity is what draws most players to the game.

Cookie cutter builds, and point and shoot gamers would be out of their element here.
try asking "what is the best build" .. there is no 1 answer.
DDO is not about 1 best build and here's the cookie cutter template for you to follow.. now you will win everything everywhere and nothing will beat you...

Research on enhancements, gear, feats, Epic destinies, mob strengths/weaknesses, ... its all useful.

Starting a game from scratch is trial and error for most players, research makes this process go by faster.
You don't need research to play kortho's.. but by the time you get to Gianthold you should be inmeshed into the game enough that you want to do research..

First, I disagree that complexity is what draws "most" players to the game. I believe the D&D name with all of the monsters and magic that goes with that name - the "glamor" of D&D - is what draws "most" players to the game. The small number of gamers that enjoy complexity might also be drawn to DDO if they expect it to be like D&D.

But my point is not that you can't benefit from research. In pretty much everything a person can benefit from research. My point is that this is a game and research should not be required. If vet players are going to require a new player to have done research before they will group with them, that is going to have an adverse affect on the number of players in the game (and already has).

So vet players need to make a choice: are you going to continue to insist that players have already done research before you will group with them or are you willing to put up with players who are just trying to have fun in order to have a higher game population?

[AzB]

try asking "what is the best build" .. there is no 1 answer.

Correct. There are two.

[jalont]

Its not relative anymore.. you are out of context with your statement.
when level 16 was endgame and shroud was the raid to run.. that's when you had our lfm requirements.
People are now running shroud levels 18-28 for ingredients for crafting and don't care about the XP. Raids were never about the pitiful XP anyway just run with whatever high level toons you have.

Deathwyrm and Peaks, and even FOT are now the endgame raid and they still fail when run above EN.
a 350hp toon in EE FOT is still deadweight and likely a subpar contributor.

DR breakers are now irrelevant since augments and many loot junk drops, crafting... give many options to craft or purchse DR breakers.

On Ghallanda it is not this way. I've never seen endgame raid LFMs with any sort of requirement, and I've never been in one and seen a leader demand one either. Also these raids are ran on EH for norm and EE much more than EN. I realize there can be a difference in the way servers handle these so idk what else to say.

Also it's almost impossible to have 350 hp in epics because Turbine now just hands out HP as you level.

[jalont]

Sure there is, Even if I was to overlook the "If you want to be one of the cool kids you need to run EE" stigma that saturates this game, there are many other mechanically put in reasons to run Elite.

There is still the:

• If you want the favor rewards you need to run EE
• If you want the purple loot (This is a WoW Joke) but there is Tiered loot based on the difficulty you run, and if you want the best version, then you need to run EE
• If you want the most heart seeds you need to run EE
• If you want to keep the streak you need to run EE
• Some items only drop on Elite

Really, there is a lot of pressure to run EE in this game mechanics themselves, as such you are basically punished in this game if you do not run EE, and since EE is slated towards Twitch Masters with min/max builds, they are pretty much totally out of the range of most casuals and what would pass as "Average players"

And let be real here, No one likes to only be able to play "Half the Game" and because of such, I have zero doubt that Casual players after being treated like second class citizens have moved on, and you have to have noticed it as well, even if you turned a blind eye to it, I mean have you really not noticed that some of the incentives to run Elite have slowly been going away? Are you really so blind to think that this was done to keep the elite players placated or that Turbine cared what was said on the forums? Hogwash!

Here is the wake up call, Casual and Average Players left in frustration and took their money with them, they quietly moved on without needing to do the "Look at me strut out the door in my drama queen dress" routine that some players can't help but do. But none the less they walked away, and even if the oh high and mighty Hard Core players did not notice their departure, Turbine sure did.

But Turbine can't change a game overnight, development takes times, it takes work, so while they very well may have been bleeding players, it's not been the "big boys" or the vaunted "Hard Core" players, but the quiet ones that just without a word pack up and leave. No one would know, surely not you, or anyone on these forums.

When MOTU first came out (back when we had a much better population), people were saying how the three difficulties for epics was a nice change so that casuals could experience epics on EN. It's interesting that you now think even EE should be easily completed by casuals. This is what we mean by the game becoming more and more catered to casuals. I don't know how you have been here so long and not actually see that.

You're going to push many more power gamers away by not providing a small percentage of the pie designed for them than you will push casuals away for doing it.

[Gremmlynn]

Research does come in different forms, its not all about reading course material,.. talking to players, youtube video's, chats, forums.. are all sources for research.

This is the wrong game to play if you don't want to do research...most complicated games benefit from research. especially games like DDO.
DDO is based on D&D which is a complicated indepth game this level of complexity is what draws most players to the game.

Cookie cutter builds, and point and shoot gamers would be out of their element here.
try asking "what is the best build" .. there is no 1 answer.
DDO is not about 1 best build and here's the cookie cutter template for you to follow.. now you will win everything everywhere and nothing will beat you...

Research on enhancements, gear, feats, Epic destinies, mob strengths/weaknesses, ... its all useful.

Starting a game from scratch is trial and error for most players, research makes this process go by faster.
You don't need research to play kortho's.. but by the time you get to Gianthold you should be inmeshed into the game enough that you want to do research..

I'm going to have to disagree. While both D&D and DDO allow players to do this sort of research and thus makes them attractive to this type of player. It really isn't required for either, outside of maybe in the case of a PnP DM. Frankly, most of those I've played either game with didn't do any sort of research and more than one DM I've known regularly changed things up a bit to mitigate the effect of those who did.

[Ungood]

When MOTU first came out (back when we had a much better population), people were saying how the three difficulties for epics was a nice change so that casuals could experience epics on EN. It's interesting that you now think even EE should be easily completed by casuals. This is what we mean by the game becoming more and more catered to casuals. I don't know how you have been here so long and not actually see that.

You're going to push many more power gamers away by not providing a small percentage of the pie designed for them than you will push casuals away for doing it.

I am going to have to ask that if you are going to quote me, at least address something I actually said. Thanks.

[katz]

... It's interesting that you now think even EE should be easily completed by casuals...

please point out for me precisely where he said this/

You're going to push many more power gamers away by not providing a small percentage of the pie designed for them than you will push casuals away for doing it.

if the powergamers are actually a very small slice of the pie, and catering to them alienates NEW players, guess which ones i won't feel bad about losing. problem is, we at our end can't tell who has the biggest slice of pie, we can only tell who has the LOUDEST slice of pie

[Gremmlynn]

When MOTU first came out (back when we had a much better population), people were saying how the three difficulties for epics was a nice change so that casuals could experience epics on EN. It's interesting that you now think even EE should be easily completed by casuals. This is what we mean by the game becoming more and more catered to casuals. I don't know how you have been here so long and not actually see that.

You're going to push many more power gamers away by not providing a small percentage of the pie designed for them than you will push casuals away for doing it.

The problem is that the power gamers are often the one's who cause this by asking for exclusive incentives to get them to eat their piece of the pie. The same incentives the rest use to make a case for making the content more accessible.

[Bridge_Dweller]

There is great reward for running EE, it's call the soulstones of the noobs. it's the most entertaining thing in DDO.

[Ungood]

First, I disagree that complexity is what draws "most" players to the game. I believe the D&D name with all of the monsters and magic that goes with that name - the "glamor" of D&D - is what draws "most" players to the game. The small number of gamers that enjoy complexity might also be drawn to DDO if they expect it to be like D&D.

I am going to have to agree with HAL on this one, it's not the complexity that draws anyone to this game, it's the DnD Franchise, it is just that most old school DnD players are inherently used to the kind of complexity this game provides because it is based off the complexity of the PnP game, and thus welcome it as "Feeling like an actual DnD game, just online"

[Ungood]

if the powergamers are actually a very small slice of the pie, and catering to them alienates NEW players, guess which ones i won't feel bad about losing. problem is, we at our end can't tell who has the biggest slice of pie, we can only tell who has the LOUDEST slice of pie

very well said.

[morkahn82]

I am going to have to agree with HAL on this one, it's not the complexity that draws anyone to this game, it's the DnD Franchise, it is just that most old school DnD players are inherently used to the kind of complexity this game provides because it is based off the complexity of the PnP game, and thus welcome it as "Feeling like an actual DnD game, just online"

in my opinion there is good complexity and bad complexity. ddo has tons of both.

good complexity:
* multiclassing possibilities
* tons of quests/adventure packs
* tons of classes/races to choose
...

bad complexity:
* inconsistencies through different adventure packs (how to flag, 20th raid reward lists etc.)
* inconsistencies in acquiring TR hearts ingame
* 6 versions of same named gear N,H,E,EN,EH,EE
* various version of same named gear with different boni
* inconsistencies of loot table of random generated weapons and cannith crafting boni
* inconsistencies in gear (old version/new version)
* quest ransack mechanic, loot ransack mechanic, Seeds/CoV ransack mechanic, every ransack has its own wierd rules to learn,
* every update seem to change (but not fix) at least 3 of the points mentioned before and it is tedious to learn every time
...

that was 3 minutes of work thinking of these, can for sure find many more.

[morkahn82]

so I ran some quest with different characters to get some seeds. Here my experience.

When loging through different characters, memory leak effect decreases responsiveness of the game with every log.
Each time loging through character I have to active the stances new, because the client doesnt remember/save activated stances through logout.
Each time loging through character I have to reapply the adequate visual appearance (helmet visual, armor visual) because ddo does not remember.

You do not directly earn money by fixing these issues. But you will lose lots of money by not fixing these issues. Turbine, this is no fun. Games are meant to be fun. Money is earned by games being played.

[FranOhmsford]

When MOTU first came out (back when we had a much better population), people were saying how the three difficulties for epics was a nice change so that casuals could experience epics on EN. It's interesting that you now think even EE should be easily completed by casuals. This is what we mean by the game becoming more and more catered to casuals. I don't know how you have been here so long and not actually see that.

You're going to push many more power gamers away by not providing a small percentage of the pie designed for them than you will push casuals away for doing it.

When the different Epic difficulties came out I'd already run a number of quests on Epic in groups and could cope ok in A GROUP!

However: No-One was running the Old Epics for months after Eveningstar came out and having had trouble just stepping into the King's Forest on my at that time Lvl 20 characters I was in a bit of a quandary.

I tried running E-Norm Lords of Dust, The Snitch and Tharashk Arena solo with Hire and got my @ss handed to me ON NORM!

Why the Heck was I going to join EEs {when they were actually up!} when I couldn't cope with E-Norm solo?

Old Epics were actually FAR Better at bringing Newbies in than the New version as Groups were de riguer for the majority of gamers in-game and it was only on these forums that elitists banged on about soloing them {and that was actually considered an achievement!}.

Going from 19-20 on a toon with no destiny is actually a much bigger fence than it was back then - Eveningstar, Wheloon, Gianthold and 3BC are aimed at EDd toons!
IQ, DD, Reaver's, Amrath - These are barely run anymore!
A 1st Life character who's done a GH Saga will most likely hit 20 off Shroud or Eveningstar Flagging {More likely the second...meaning that he/she may not have even ENTERED the Vale!}.
And because Vale groups are pretty much "BB or get the heck out of here" they're not going to be running the Vale!

We have a badland currently between Orchard/GH and E-VoN 3!

The thing is though that Lvl 20 is no longer END-GAME! And as such cannot justify the old Epic styling!
When Lvl 30 comes out I hope that Turbine gives us the Old Epic END-GAME back and re-builds the 20-29 path so as to better fit in with the 1-20 path!