Casualization at its peaks. What are your thoughts?

[morkahn82]

How did I miss this.

EE is not hard by any stretch of the imagination. Even the worst players in the game have crutches available to them (monkcher/shiradi caster) that will allow them to be a competent member of a party in EE. A "p2w" store has nothing to do with it. And this is a problem.

we have different opinions. life goes on. p2w matters, otherwise it would not sell.

[Catteras]

I would like to have a choice of endreward, and I still don't

Because picking worthless items with different icon, that is so bad it will end at vendor 5 seconds later isn't really a choice.

You have a choice. You might not like the choices, but that is a separate issue.

right. nobody asked for it.

People had 2 problems (generally) with the comm system originally put in Place: 1) too much grind and 2) being forced to always choose comms as an end reward (unless they wanted to grind more).

2 hearts seeds in reward list at cap solves both of these issues (to an extent that i am satisfied). Many many many people were clamoring for fixes to these issues, and i was one of them.

Now, if you are intentionally ignoring the generalization i am making, and want to continue your argument that "no one specifically asked to get 2 heart seeds in reward list at cap", then you are probably right. And also being intentionally obtuse in order to win your argument and because you personally dont like how the solved the issue.

The fact is people asked for a solution and Turbine gave a solution. If you dont like the solution, thats a different story.

[Catteras]

If Turbine sees more profit in gearing the game more toward casuals, nothing we say will change that.

This. It is the same reason it is hard to find hardcore gyms anymore. Most gyms (fitness centers) now cater to casuals because they are a larger potential profit base. Look at Planet Fitness. It is enough to make hardcore lifters puke.

That said, i consider myself a casual ddo player, and i like the direction. If things had stayed like they were when 20 was cap and epics were crazy hard (for me), i might have grown bored with making alts and moved on by now

[HAL]

There's a problem with this though, and it mostly centers around the fact that DDO doesn't have any PvP to speak of.

I don't understand what PvP has to do with this topic.

This is the first and only game I've ever played where nothing matters. This effects both casual and powergamers. Casuals seem to have no use for EE or wanting to get better. So why are they playing? Why are they building a toon?

You're saying that there is no point to playing if you don't do EE? I even play EE but I don't see that as the goal of the game. The rest of the game is also enjoyable and people also enjoy experimenting with different classes / builds. It is a very limited POV that EE is everything.

[Vellrad]

You have a choice. You might not like the choices, but that is a separate issue.

You had the same choice before.

Earlier it was always take coms because all other rewards are worthless.
Not its always take renown, because all other rewards are worthless.

Still 0 choice.

[HAL]

You had the same choice before.

Earlier it was always take coms because all other rewards are worthless.
Not its always take renown, because all other rewards are worthless.

Still 0 choice.

Perhaps for players who already have everything. But that is a small percentage. The rest of the player base may indeed value something besides comms and renown.

[Gremmlynn]

People saying that the game has to take casuals into consideration too are way off base. All the game does is take casuals into consideration. They completely run the game. It seems like we get massive player power buffs every other month. It seems we give gear/seed/whatever handouts every other month. Casuals aren't the people that Turbine are in danger of turning off from the game. It's powergamers.

There should be a system that awards better players with better/quicker rewards. This only makes sense. That's not to say that casuals shouldn't or wouldn't be able to play too. They have their own playground. The problem is that every month that playground grows exponentially at the cost of the powergamer playground.

And it just isn't casuals that are at fault here either. Every day, good players that are able to obliterate all content in this game start threads asking for a buff to this or a buff to that. It's all out of control.

This only matters if doing it your way is considered by those who are doing it to be more profitable than doing it their way.

Frankly, I can see why they would see things this way when one group feels they should get better/quicker rewards requiring them to develop more rewards and the content they drop in at a faster pace. Even if everything else were even, it would be more cost effective to cater to those for whom less content need be developed over a given time.

[Qhualor]

People had 2 problems (generally) with the comm system originally put in Place: 1) too much grind and 2) being forced to always choose comms as an end reward (unless they wanted to grind more).

2 hearts seeds in reward list at cap solves both of these issues (to an extent that i am satisfied). Many many many people were clamoring for fixes to these issues, and i was one of them.

Now, if you are intentionally ignoring the generalization i am making, and want to continue your argument that "no one specifically asked to get 2 heart seeds in reward list at cap", then you are probably right. And also being intentionally obtuse in order to win your argument and because you personally dont like how the solved the issue.

The fact is people asked for a solution and Turbine gave a solution. If you dont like the solution, thats a different story.

I was simply giving an example of how Turbine goes from one extreme to the next. My biggest concern with the exact same system as running EDA 20× for a heart of wood is that now epics will mirror heroics with xp grind. Now there is less incentive to run EE when many people asked for a reasonable reduction or pitting Comms in chests. It does make a lot of players happier now, but its another easy path.

I'm not trying to win any argument or play word games. I was right out in front in those "4200 Comms is too much" threads rallying for something better. Practically giving away hearts of wood wasn't what I had in mind and I seriously doubt others did too. It seems we both wanted the same outcome, but it appears we have different views on what's best for the game.

[Rys]

Perhaps for players who already have everything. But that is a small percentage. The rest of the player base may indeed value something besides comms and renown.

Hard to believe this. All I see is Acidproof of Fireproof or Ghostbane of Everbright. It's been a very very long time I have got something valuable/nice/interesting in the end reward.

[eris2323]

Hard to believe this. All I see is Acidproof of Fireproof or Ghostbane of Everbright. It's been a very very long time I have got something valuable/nice/interesting in the end reward.

I had an absolutely amazing loot-gen staff drop that is better than Twilight (level 28) - But before the change, I hadn't even been bothering to look at random loot in end results - needed those stupid comms too bad, unless there was a tome.

Now, I get to actually check the loot tables, maybe take that 1000 renown instead of every single time taking those stupid comms.

[Gremmlynn]

There's a problem with this though, and it mostly centers around the fact that DDO doesn't have any PvP to speak of.

This is the first and only game I've ever played where nothing matters. This effects both casual and powergamers. Casuals seem to have no use for EE or wanting to get better. So why are they playing? Why are they building a toon? Trying to get that perfect weapon doesn't matter because it certainly isn't going to give them the power to overcome a challenge that they couldn't before. EH and EN has no challenge to overcome. For powergamers, there's no point in farming anything because EE offers no real challenge to them. Trying to get anything is a pretty hollow exercise because it isn't like those things are needed.

I'm guessing the same reason people watch sit coms. Simply to be entertained.

I know that's why I play.

Also, EE has little to do with getting better. It's mostly about playing the game in a manner dictated by the content. Mostly by running backwards while whittling down stacks of hps from a distance. Great if that's your idea of fun, but pretty pointless if it isn't.

[Gremmlynn]

It's not blame the casuals day. It's blame the devs day. Of course people want everything handed to them. This is the Millennials syndrome in action. It's Turbines fault for giving in.

It's Turbines business to make money with in whatever way they find best. But it's a bit of a reach to "blame" because the product they offer isn't the product you might be looking for.

[Ancient]

Also, EE has little to do with getting better. It's mostly about playing the game in a manner dictated by the content. Mostly by running backwards while whittling down stacks of hps from a distance. Great if that's your idea of fun, but pretty pointless if it isn't.

It is amazing how there is a symmetry between the difficulties.

EE is running backwards while whittling down stacks of hps from a distance. EN is running forward trying to get line of sight with something still alive before the other party members have squashed it and sprint boost to the next room.

[Gremmlynn]

You had the same choice before.

Earlier it was always take coms because all other rewards are worthless.
Not its always take renown, because all other rewards are worthless.

Still 0 choice.

How is it that renown was worthless before, but isn't now?

[Bridge_Dweller]

EE is running backwards while whittling down stacks of hps from a distance.

Not for people with balls.

[unbongwah]

"DDO is too easy & boring because there are too many crutches for the casuals!"

"So stop using crutches."

"...why would I do that?"

"You just said they make the game too boring!"

"Hey, if a casual has a crutch, I'm **** sure gonna use it too!"

"So nerf the crutches?"

"Y- NO! That would nerf my main, Sir Thwacksalot!"

"Then up the difficulty of EEs?"

"Y- NO! What's the point if the loot doesn't get better too?"

"Okay, so up the drop rates or add new EE-only loot and up the challenge of EEs?"

"Sure, sounds great!"

"Then what?"

". . . what?"

"Once you have this new EE-only swag, then what do you do?"

"Move onto the next hardest quest, of course!"

"But you just beat it. In fact, you were beating it before you got your new more powerful loot. There is no 'next hardest quest,' in fact you just made all of the existing content that much easier for you, thanks to Sir Thwacksalot's new loot."

"Well...then...make new content!"

"You know that takes time, right? Time & dev resources which are in scarce supply. It's why we only get 3 or 4 content drops a year. And you'll probably beat it all the weekend it's released then complain loudly, 'Is that it?!' won't you?"

"All right, smart guy, what's your solution? How do you make DDO more challenging?"

"Simple: if Turbine can't make the game challenging enough for you, then make your own challenges. Start over on a new server. Join a permadeath guild. Roll up the gimpiest build you can think of and see how far you can get. Find some way of making the game a personal challenge to your skills rather than an endurance test of XP grinding and loot farming."

". . . and give up all of Sir Thwacksalot's stuff? Are you nuts?!"

[Gremmlynn]

It is amazing how there is a symmetry between the difficulties.

EE is running backwards while whittling down stacks of hps from a distance. EN is running forward trying to get line of sight with something still alive before the other party members have squashed it and sprint boost to the next room.

Yeah, DDO isn't exactly a real difficult game if you take a few steps back to look at it.

[HAL]

Hard to believe this. All I see is Acidproof of Fireproof or Ghostbane of Everbright. It's been a very very long time I have got something valuable/nice/interesting in the end reward.

Perhaps your idea of what is valuable/nice/interesting is different than mine. I have seen lootgen items that I chose. Electric Resistance +15 / +30 HP / Green Slot / White Slot boots for instance. Probably not something an Epic geared character cares about but nice for me.

[Rixaen]

Not for people with balls.

You mean for exploit abusing meta gaming no life grinders who trivialize DDO so thoroughly them even thinking their opinion matters is tantamount to them plotting the death of DDO directly and sharpening the knife while day dreaming of the throat cut they intend to make.

EE is brutal but doable by many members of DDOs population. Most dont care for how EE plays though and thus ignore it after the typical one and done for favor many unpopular bits of content get relegated to by the community over all.

Those that can solo an EE challenging bit of content while having 5 pikers pump up the content dont need harder content they need to start challenging themselves by using inefficient flavor builds and slumming it in pugs with newbs in desperate need of aid but not a walking death sentence for the content.

[painkiller3]

No.

This means people will run it once, and they will have no reason to run it again after looting item.
Trading it means I have a reason to run it after getting 1 item.

so lower drop rates. 10% to grab EN version on EN,5% to grab EH version on EH, 1% to grab EE version on EE. you may scoff, but how many VONs did you run for the eSOS shard? to do an awful paraphrase of Kevin Costner - if it's shiny enough, they will farm