Casualization at its peaks. What are your thoughts?

[Seikojin]

When any and all of us step up to the door to a quest, we make a choice on what we are going to do for ourselves. Challenge, loot, exp, etc. Casualization is a term that has no realistic meaning in an environment where personal choices for gain are made.

Casual to one player is difficult to another. Or Casual to one player is fitting risk vs reward for another.

You want incentive to run harder difficulties? More exp and higher chance at loot isn't enough for you? Then that means you are hitting that threshold of risk vs reward. And that is also why lower difficulties are 'easier' less risk, less reward. It ultimately becomes a balancing act: what are you willing to do for that shiny.

Now, onto what I think would push people to do EE more often despite the risk.

More loot chances. My biggest cases: Amrath and Shroud.

Yes, their loot has been passed by. Level 28 loot does that. Regardless, as soon as Hard and Elite got more chests with each chest offering another chance at that same loot; lfms and runs all over the place for it.

Would this saturate the market with items? Maybe. When the drop rate is 1 in 300+, then you can afford to drop an extra chest here and there on elite difficulties.

[jalont]

I don't understand what PvP has to do with this topic.

Because a PvP system usually gives players a reason to farm gear. As it stands now, there's no reason to farm anything. There's no actual reason to get anything. It makes it all seem so hollow. There's no "real" reward system because the rewards don't actually matter.

You're saying that there is no point to playing if you don't do EE? I even play EE but I don't see that as the goal of the game. The rest of the game is also enjoyable and people also enjoy experimenting with different classes / builds. It is a very limited POV that EE is everything.

That isn't what I'm saying at all. But what does a player who only plays EN/EH need to farm? Absolutely nothing. They have no challenges to overcome. The things they farm will have no point. The rewards do not matter. Powergamers are in the exact same boat. There is no challenge, thus there is no "real" reward to farm anything. To get anything. It's all weird. Without challenges to overcome, everything becomes hollow.

[Bridge_Dweller]

You mean for exploit abusing meta gaming no life grinders who trivialize DDO so thoroughly them even thinking their opinion matters is tantamount to them plotting the death of DDO directly and sharpening the knife while day dreaming of the throat cut they intend to make.

EE is brutal but doable by many members of DDOs population. Most dont care for how EE plays though and thus ignore it after the typical one and done for favor many unpopular bits of content get relegated to by the community over all.

Those that can solo an EE challenging bit of content while having 5 pikers pump up the content dont need harder content they need to start challenging themselves by using inefficient flavor builds and slumming it in pugs with newbs in desperate need of aid but not a walking death sentence for the content.

Project much?

[Oliphant]

Meh. I kinda prefer mechanics that don't let the elite players reach escape velocity and fly off to another world.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Meh. I kinda prefer mechanics that don't let the elite players reach escape velocity and fly off to another world.

Considering the amount of players this game has lost in the past two years you might be on to something.

[patang01]

(sorry for not being clear in opening as it was really late when i started this thread, my posts will slowly show what i initialy thought, best sumerized in post 19)

Whole epic lfm is full with mainly eh/en lfms.
First day and i alrdy dont like it.
Seed change backfired exactly as i thought it would. Might be to soon to make a conclusion. But currently it feels like this and it is going into this direction.
I mean everyone feels the same that now its a matter of efficiency to run lower difficulty.
Was this expected? Yes.
But do we really need to trivialize ddo so much?
Can we get at least some promise that running epic elite content will offer some reward that is actually worth it.

At least the ee/eh/en loot system. Something, anything, as i fear if the next update will have btaoa loot with same stats no matter the difficulty, there will be no real reason for the Epic elite setting.
I know, many will say do it for the challenge, but shouldnt challenge be somehow be rewarded?

Opinions welcome and i encourage people to discuss this, as i am highly interested what community thinks how ddo should be difficulty wise and what you think about current direction ddo is taking.

My opinion:
Personally, i dislike it as i am losing sight of running hardest content on hardest setting.
Any other mmo, has different values and loot system depending on what you run content on.
Higher tier difficulty = better rewards /titles/ladder boards.
Ddo should not be a exception in that regard and should reward higher skilled players with something to make them feel a sense of achievment and progress /for example loot titles/ theras encouraging everyone to get better.

Heart Seeds allow you to make a iconic or epic heart of wood. Which allows you to ETR or ITR. Which makes a person start over for some incremental power and do it all again (from level 15 or 20) to cap. It prolongs the game.
Offering low Valor where most people cap well before they have 4200 Valor gives up on the prospect. And the whole off karma stuff is a drag too, making people play most stuff in EN and EH anyways.

This is a GOOD move. It provides an incentive to people to play some more at cap and then TR - the one thing that adds a significant time sink without worrying about 4200 Valor.
And nothing of this will ever stop ANYONE from running EE's. It's almost like you blame a better 'easier' system for lack of reason to run EE. Shouldn't EE be run by people who want too? Or are you telling me that a better system is to blame why people don't want to eye bleed crushing gobs of HP in EE? I just don't see the device that makes it impossible for you to run EE with your friends.
Plus EE for me is for people with exploiter builds since a lot of these EE quest are tilted towards ranged, caster and evasion builds. I'd feel stupid to take my mana sponge fighter into an EE now adays. So 2 heart seed at cap is good - it allows me to continue enjoy playing this game without the mind bleed of 4200 valor on my toons that are less then evasion savvy.

[Catteras]

You had the same choice before.

Earlier it was always take coms because all other rewards are worthless.
Not its always take renown, because all other rewards are worthless.

Still 0 choice.

Perhaps for players who already have everything. But that is a small percentage. The rest of the player base may indeed value something besides comms and renown.

Thank you. This.

I constantly see stuff on the rewards list that I want. In epic at least. (In heroics, I almost always just take renown.) But in epics I see nice stuff a lot. Of course, it's relative to the player and what he already has. Many people don't already have everything, so we like our choices.

[Catteras]

I was simply giving an example of how Turbine goes from one extreme to the next. My biggest concern with the exact same system as running EDA 20× for a heart of wood is that now epics will mirror heroics with xp grind. Now there is less incentive to run EE when many people asked for a reasonable reduction or pitting Comms in chests. It does make a lot of players happier now, but its another easy path.

I'm not trying to win any argument or play word games. I was right out in front in those "4200 Comms is too much" threads rallying for something better. Practically giving away hearts of wood wasn't what I had in mind and I seriously doubt others did too. It seems we both wanted the same outcome, but it appears we have different views on what's best for the game.

Oh, I will agree that there could have been a better approach (and right from the start). I would MUCH prefer to have comms drop in the epic end chest just like tokens do. This end reward mechanic is not my favorite. I guess I'm just saying that I'm happy Turbine gave us something that mostly gave us what we were asking for. (This could have been much worse and comms could have been tied to Saga end rewards. Or tokens of the twelve could have been eliminated and we'd need comms to heroic TR, too.)

"Practically giving out hearts of wood" is fine by me. My hamster wheel from lvl 1 to lvl 28 takes about 2 months. By the time I get from 1 to 28, I really don't want to have to hassle with getting a heart to eTR in order to repeat the process. Let me get back on my hamster wheel without the massive hassle. It's playing the content (usually once and done from 1 to 28 as much as possible) that excites me and keeps me coming back. Grinding certain chains that give better comm rewards is daunting and discouraging for me. If I had to do that every time I hit epic levels, I'd burn out fast.

[Xioden]

I was simply giving an example of how Turbine goes from one extreme to the next. My biggest concern with the exact same system as running EDA 20× for a heart of wood is that now epics will mirror heroics with xp grind. Now there is less incentive to run EE when many people asked for a reasonable reduction or pitting Comms in chests. It does make a lot of players happier now, but its another easy path.

I'm not trying to win any argument or play word games. I was right out in front in those "4200 Comms is too much" threads rallying for something better. Practically giving away hearts of wood wasn't what I had in mind and I seriously doubt others did too. It seems we both wanted the same outcome, but it appears we have different views on what's best for the game.

So either your real complaint is that you wanted hearts to be even easier to get, or your upset about all the **** random loot or guild renown people may take as end rewards while leveling from 20-28 instead of essentially being forced to take comms every time?

If they just reduced the number of comms people would have been getting hearts of wood for less effort than before.

[HAL]

Because a PvP system usually gives players a reason to farm gear.

There are plenty of MMOs with no PvP who have an active end game.

That isn't what I'm saying at all. But what does a player who only plays EN/EH need to farm? Absolutely nothing. They have no challenges to overcome. The things they farm will have no point. The rewards do not matter. Powergamers are in the exact same boat. There is no challenge, thus there is no "real" reward to farm anything. To get anything. It's all weird. Without challenges to overcome, everything becomes hollow.

You can't force players to do something they don't like. This is what it comes down to:

You want incentive to run harder difficulties? More exp and higher chance at loot isn't enough for you? Then that means you are hitting that threshold of risk vs reward.

For some players, nothing would be worth running CitW for instance.

Its funny, when MMOs first started the vast majority of players were "gamers" - people for who games were a large part of their lives and who were used to a certain level of challenge / difficulty. But over time a larger percentage of "non-gamer" became interested in computer games, including MMOs. Game developers started to make adjustments for these new customers - what gamers called "dumbing down".

But that is the choice that companies have to make: keep their games difficult to satisfy the more hardcore gamers and have less income or make their games accessible to a larger audience and have a larger income. DDO has tried to do both with quest difficulties but apparently the more hardcore gamers are finding a lack of population in the hardest difficulties / quests.

Hardcore players putting down more casual players, accusing them of not having any goals etc., is not going to "encourage" them to join you...

[slarden]

lol

EE sagas are waste of time.

You will get more XP by zerging EH quests at top speed than wasting time for EEs that gives 20k.

Why not just zerg EE it's maybe 10% longer for much better saga rewards.

[Qhualor]

So either your real complaint is that you wanted hearts to be even easier to get, or your upset about all the **** random loot or guild renown people may take as end rewards while leveling from 20-28 instead of essentially being forced to take comms every time?

If they just reduced the number of comms people would have been getting hearts of wood for less effort than before.

I wasn't making a complaint in this thread, just making some comments.

what I actually wanted was the cost to be reduced to around 3-3500k. I never was on board with Comms in end rewards and I still don't like them in end rewards even now with the new change. we never got an answer as to why Comms couldn't be in end chests by Turbine so I can only assume it would be some kind of coding problem or maybe Turbine was afraid players would pass Comms. I don't know.

the grind for the average player to achieve 4200 by give or take level 28 was already tough when many weren't EE capable so the less effort if Comms were reduced would have been met with open arms.

[Ungood]

just a minor side note:

I have no idea if this has been brought up before, but other MMO's don't have settings, they have pretty much a single setting to their content and you either can do it, or you can't.

There is no Normal/Hard/Elite in other MMO's, DDO is the only MMO I have ever seen with this feature.

Which leads me to believe that the OP has not played any other MMO's.

Which brings me to another point, Dungeons/Instances in other MMO's like for example, GW2, you can't solo most dungeons, no matter how good you are, because there are mechanics in place that require team effort to accomplish IE: 3 balls need to put into platforms, within 10 seconds of each other, and it is impossible for a single toon to run to more then 2 platforms thus you can't solo, or you need to hold 4 points while a 5th person pulls a lever, thus you can't short man either, you need a full group, end of discussion.

DDO puts in the difficulty level to be inclusive to anyone that wants to play this game, So No, beyond the favor, exp, challenge, and bragging rights of doing Elite, there should be nothing more involved, in fact I believe there should be more rewards for casual and normal.

The fact that anyone feels that they need or should get more than that, I believe misses the whole point of doing elite in the first place, if people opt to only follow the path of least resistance then that is their choice as well.

This here is a game, it's not supposed to be "work"

[ivstuntman]

EE runs are a lot more fun that normal missions because sorcerers don't oneshot every single trash mob, and things like intimidate are more useful. I think it'd be interesting if both the rewards(just better enhancement bonus on vendor trash drops and a bit more exp) and difficulty on most ee missions where ramped up. Might also give more value to mission packs.

Or maybe a new difficulty for missions, epic insane, where the quest lvl is scaled to 28-30, sort of like how herioc elite devil assualt is to 18. It'd add flavor to running stuff like the snitch again. You'd really have to plan the fights out with your party instead of just putting on some electronic music and mowing through everything.

[AdamSmith]

just a minor side note:

I have no idea if this has been brought up before, but other MMO's don't have settings, they have pretty much a single setting to their content and you either can do it, or you can't.

There is no Normal/Hard/Elite in other MMO's, DDO is the only MMO I have ever seen with this feature.

Which leads me to believe that the OP has not played any other MMO's.

Which brings me to another point, Dungeons/Instances in other MMO's like for example, GW2, you can't solo most dungeons, no matter how good you are, because there are mechanics in place that require team effort to accomplish IE: 3 balls need to put into platforms, within 10 seconds of each other, and it is impossible for a single toon to run to more then 2 platforms thus you can't solo, or you need to hold 4 points while a 5th person pulls a lever, thus you can't short man either, you need a full group, end of discussion.

DDO puts in the difficulty level to be inclusive to anyone that wants to play this game, So No, beyond the favor, exp, challenge, and bragging rights of doing Elite, there should be nothing more involved, in fact I believe there should be more rewards for casual and normal.

The fact that anyone feels that they need or should get more than that, I believe misses the whole point of doing elite in the first place, if people opt to only follow the path of least resistance then that is their choice as well.

This here is a game, it's not supposed to be "work"

There was hard mode for Guild Wars 1 (since you mentioned Guild Wars 2). I believe there was some extra achievements associated with GW1 hard mode. Don't remember it too well, haven't played it in a long time.

[Ungood]

Considering the amount of players this game has lost in the past two years you might be on to something.

what makes you think it is the elite players that are jumping ship, ever think that it's the casuals that have decided they have had enough of the "need to run EE or you suxorz noob!" and have opted to take their time and disposable incomes someplace else a little less hostile?

[Ungood]

There was hard mode for Guild Wars 1 (since you mentioned Guild Wars 2). I believe there was some extra achievements associated with GW1 hard mode. Don't remember it too well, haven't played it in a long time.

I only played GW1 for a short time, but I do not recall a "hard mode" however, it was a while ago and it was not for very long... so maybe I just did not explore that venture.

[AdamSmith]

what makes you think it is the elite players that are jumping ship, ever think that it's the casuals that have decided they have had enough of the "need to run EE or you suxorz noob!" and have opted to take their time and disposable incomes someplace else a little less hostile?

Does Turbine do exit surveys when a player uninstalls the game? Might help them pinpoint the reasons more. I thought most people leave games out of boredom or in order to try out another game.

[Ungood]

Does Turbine do exit surveys when a player uninstalls the game? Might help them pinpoint the reasons more. I thought most people leave games out of boredom or in order to try out another game.

This would be a very, very, bad assumption, most likely born of some belief that deep down everyone is a hard core player or wants to be like them, but there is no truth to that.

The reality is, Frustration is just as (if not more so) likely to drive a player away as boredom is.

In fact a feeling of being stonewalled or the existence of excessive grinding is a total killjoy to the "casual" player, they really have no urge to run the same quest a hundred times for an item, maybe a hard core player does, and is willing to do that to get the item, but the second a casual learns that is what is involved that item becomes instantly out of reach to them, and the game loses a level of fun to them. hate to be rude , but really, they are casual players, they don't see the merits of devoting their life to acquiring loot and game power.

They will walk away in Frustration and find some other game that is more fun, and gratifying.

People cling to the idea that it's the hard cores burning out that hurts the population, but this is simply not true, older vets leaving might be that case, but hard core players make a very small percent of any game, in fact they are rather rudely called content locusts because of the speed and ferocity by which they devour content always demanding more, harder, content and never satisfied. Truth is a game can't survive on them, they are handy, and a part of the gamer population, but they are not the stable population, they are the ones that leave in boredom, but to placate them you will ultimately drive off those players that can't keep up with them, which is the very large casual population.

Now, if you are an older established player, you would see and be a part of the hard core player base, or at the very least, by virtue of just having been around yourself for so long, you would of them, even if you never quite became a part of them, so their decline would be noticed by you, however, a small portion of older players leaving, especially the hard core players, is never what hurts a game or puts it into decline, it's a lack of new players staying around that spins the game into a decline, and new players not staying around has nothing to do with boredom or lack of content.

Just something to consider.

[FranOhmsford]

You had the same choice before.

Earlier it was always take coms because all other rewards are worthless.
Not its always take renown, because all other rewards are worthless.

Still 0 choice.

My issue with Comms when they were first released was that the Devs were making it hurt to take Renown.

I didn't want an end reward added to the list that made taking anything else whatsoever a stupid choice!

BUT: That's pretty much what Renown does for me - Heck I don't even bother mousing over anything else in an end reward list any more unless it's a named list - I take the Renown ALWAYS whether it be a 15000 Saga Reward OR a Heroic Deeds from Heroic Elite BB Crucible {Aaaaargh Devs - When will you learn that Renown SHOULD be scaled to the difficulty of the quest you get it from?}.

My Guild on Cannith is currently Lvl 65 and though it has 6 Active Accounts 3 of those are mine and the other 3 barely play!
There is never gonna be a time when Renown isn't a must have for me!

On Sarlona I'm in Judges of Sarlona {Lvl 84 currently}
On Khyber I'm in Skylords {Lvl 78 currently}
and On Argo I'm building The Stormreach City Watch {Lvl 27 as of yesterday}

I take Renown pretty much every quest and I don't even look at the +1 skill tomes in the Saga rewards despite that ALL of my characters could find at least one that was needed!


I was annoyed yesterday while running a GH Heroic Elite Saga at level on Argo:
I'd grabbed the renown rewards from Feast, Cabal and Cruci which had knocked up The Stormreach City Watch from Lvl 25-26.
And I took the rewards from PoP, Madstone, Cry, Maze and Trial and got exactly ONE Heroic Deeds appear in 5 Lists!
I STILL didn't even bother looking at any of the loot - I simply took the last item on each list, went straight to the tavern and vendored it!
I skipped Foundation & Tor and took my 15000 Saga Reward which pushed the guild up to 27 {I was on a pot! and with 12 accounts we're still a small guild!}.


It's Sagas that have forced my hand and finally got me running EEs!

Now no.. my characters aren't ready for EEs - Currently ALL of my Epic Characters are between lvl 20 and 25 and most likely on a useless ED.
Lieuk for instance is my Lvl 25 Light Monk and having completed Grandmaster first WON'T be in Grandmaster again for I don't know how long!
Molineux is on his 3rd Life {FvS} but chose Magister while in his 2nd Life {Sorc} then instantly TRd - Which means he's hurting bad while running Epics as a Melee FavSoul!!! {His 1st life was WF Spellsinger Bard and He TRd instantly on hitting 20 with NO ED whatsoever!}.


The attitude of "Bring your main destiny" is a bad attitude to have when that simply means it will be even longer before more casual players actually get to a point where they have the vastly more important FATE SLOTS!


The problem is that we have people like Overvaan {the OP} complaining that no-one's running EE while ALSO complaining about People like me not contributing in EE {Over's never attacked me but others certainly have!}.
EE is NOT easy for the majority of players - Heck the majority of players LEAVE THE GAME before hitting LVL 10!!!
If the majority of LFMs are on EN or EH it's because outside these forums there just isn't that many players actually CAPABLE in EEs!!!

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the Rewards of EE - If your toon is going to die in the FIRST Fight then you're NOT going to be running EEs!!!