Casualization at its peaks. What are your thoughts?

[Azarddoze]

Then there is the whole issue of being able to to buy loot from the AH or ASAH. Under the Gianthold model, only raid loot could not be bought, and even that could be upgraded to its highest tier with CoHs.

Whatever prestige you might be imagining that comes from having EE gear just didn't exist under that system because it was available to anyone. Laughably, apart from the raid loot, you didn't even need to own the pack.

I don't think having gear which is better than everyone else is integral to being a power-gamer. Understanding the game both at game and metagame level, playing efficiently and performing well at your role, being able to get a completion no matter what obstacles occur are things define the good player for me.

There are far too many people around that think having the best gear makes them good players and/or powergamers, and frankly, those people are deluding themselves.

Thanks.

What you don't get is that hopefully, most powergamers don't give a **** if others can obtain the same gear through ASAH, they're actually the one selling it. About no one cares about the prestige (sure some do) either in a PvE game, you got it all wrong. It's about having a reason to run the only thing that you like : the challenging stuff.

If you give me no reason to run the challenging content of the game, well i'm just on a break unless i'm still up for a thousand TRs. There's just no way around it and after 6+ years of playing, let say I personally don't feel like chain TRing all the time anymore.

And exactly as you said, having the best gear isn't exclusive to the power gamer. Make it sellable, problem solved as for what concerns you.

Finally, being a power gamer has nothing to do with gear in a game where gear doesn't matter that much, I agree. Though the playstyle of a powergamer usually leads him to obtain the best gear since he's looking to min/max as much as possible with the time he has on hand. So yeah, you just sound like another casual who thinks he has mindreading skills but sorry, you don't seem to do as your assomptions are false.

The old system was even worse when it comes to being casual-friendly.

[FranOhmsford]

lol

EE sagas are waste of time.

You will get more XP by zerging EH quests at top speed than wasting time for EEs that gives 20k.

Did I say anything about XP?

We're talking about Capped Characters right? What's XP got to do with anything when you're already capped?

Nah - I don't take XP from Heroic Sagas, I certainly wouldn't take it from Epics!

[FranOhmsford]

What you don't get is that hopefully, most powergamers don't give a **** if others can obtain the same gear through ASAH, they're actually the one selling it. About no one cares about the prestige (sure some do) either in a PvE game, you got it all wrong. It's about having a reason to run the only thing that you like : the challenging stuff.

If you give me no reason to run the challenging content of the game, well i'm just on a break unless i'm still up for a thousand TRs. There's just no way around it and after 6+ years of playing, let say I personally don't feel like chain TRing all the time anymore.

And exactly as you said, having the best gear isn't exclusive to the power gamer. Make it sellable, problem solved as for what concerns you.

Finally, being a power gamer has nothing to do with gear in a game where gear doesn't matter that much, I agree. Though the playstyle of a powergamer usually leads him to obtain the best gear since he's looking to min/max as much as possible with the time he has on hand. So yeah, you just sound like another casual who thinks he has mindreading skills but sorry, you don't seem to do as your assomptions are false.

The old system was even worse when it comes to be casual-friendly.

Thanks.

Then STOP selling that Gear to the "Casuals!" "Casuals" here does NOT mean Casual Gamer - It means Wallet Warrior or Auction House Gamer - As no True Casual can afford the silly prices I see regularly on the ASAH!

You're already plat capped on every toon and more than likely have hundreds of AS {though what you'd need them for I don't know if the game's so easy for you!}.


As for Challenge: It's funny how "Challenging" it seems to be according to these forums to Pug - If you like Challenges so much then Challenge yourself!

[XiaNYdE]

Not sure how viable this would be, but i always thought since sagas were introduced that a nice bonus was missed there, if you complete a saga on TrueEE, reward a completion for the equivalent TrueHE saga as well, like i said not sure how viable but it may be an option towards what the OP sugests. I would also make it so taking the upgrade option or skipping a quest doesn't give the TrueHE reward, it has to be a genuine run through all quests.

[relenttless]

people get most of their comms while leveling to 28, they were meant to get everything they needed.
just because its easier now then it was a week ago doesnt mean its easy now

eeerrr, yes it is

Now you just park a farming toon at level 28 to get seeds (which are bta) run a couple of quests/raids whatever with said toon - you will have enough to etr in 10 days...its a doddle.

For those who just MUST etr quicker, well, they can get the seeds in a few hours if they want to.

personally I think its a win.

As for the op....boo-hoo

[Azarddoze]

Then STOP selling that Gear to the "Casuals!" "Casuals" here does NOT mean Casual Gamer - It means Wallet Warrior or Auction House Gamer - As no True Casual can afford the silly prices I see regularly on the ASAH!

You're already plat capped on every toon and more than likely have hundreds of AS {though what you'd need them for I don't know if the game's so easy for you!}.


As for Challenge: It's funny how "Challenging" it seems to be according to these forums to Pug - If you like Challenges so much then Challenge yourself!

It's hard not to say "casuals" in most cases because most of the forum population classify players as powergamers or casuals. I don't think it's right but i'm not going to define exactly the kind of players i'm talking about, i'm pretty sure you can read between the lines and see what kind of "casuals" someone is talking about here and there.

I personally don't sell stuff (I give it away and I use AS for more rolls when I get some - I hated the change and I never started using it) and would prefer if named gear wasn't sellable but it has to be I guess to assure accessibility. Also, it's not about game is too easy and I wouldn't even care about it if it's fun, I can find my gaming challenge elsewhere. Problem is that by changing it's approach and catering more and more to the casuals, Turbine is also pushing away the more "challenged oriented" players. Because no one will grind the same 5 quests for 3+ months just for the sake of it, that is inhuman and grindy. You'd do that if you're stuck addicted or simply cope well with grinding.

And why is that happening? Because everyone has to have every same things? To me, and i'll be honest, it's simply aknowledging to the deficiency. It doesn't even seem to be a good financial decision... come on, we're talking about less than 5% of the content (EEs).

So, are they pushing away people because they are scared that if not everyone can obtain the best everything, they just won't play? On the other side, who the heck thinks like that? Would you really stop playing a game because you cannot obtain the best gear even though you don't need it and aren't willing to try to get it? See where I am going... not quite sure yet which playstyle is creating the problem...

[blerkington]

What you don't get is that hopefully, most powergamers don't give a **** if others can obtain the same gear through ASAH, they're actually the one selling it. About no one cares about the prestige (sure some do) either in a PvE game, you got it all wrong. It's about having a reason to run the only thing that you like : the challenging stuff.

If you give me no reason to run the challenging content of the game, well i'm just on a break unless i'm still up for a thousand TRs. There's just no way around it and after 6+ years of playing, let say I personally don't feel like chain TRing all the time anymore.

And exactly as you said, having the best gear isn't exclusive to the power gamer. Make it sellable, problem solved as for what concerns you.

Finally, being a power gamer has nothing to do with gear in a game where gear doesn't matter that much, I agree. Though the playstyle of a powergamer usually leads him to obtain the best gear since he's looking to min/max as much as possible with the time he has on hand. So yeah, you just sound like another casual who thinks he has mindreading skills but sorry, you don't seem to do as your assomptions are false.

The old system was even worse when it comes to be casual-friendly.

Thanks.

Hi,

So, it sounds like we are not running EE content for the same reason.

I run EE content (solo and in group) for challenge, fun, because I like many of the quests, and for the sake of becoming a better player. When I run in group it's because I expect to enjoy running with those other people.

Are you really saying that the only reason, or even the primary reason, you run EE content is for the sake of acquiring EE tier gear? Do none of the reasons I've listed above motivate you to play more than tiered loot?

I like having a well-geared out character too. My main has completed 23 heroic and 16 epic lives, and isn't currently missing any item he could possibly want, aside from some more phlogistons for a full set of Tier 3 TF weapons and a few stubborn epic mats mainly from the Sands.

I only mention the number of reincarnations and amount of gear that character has because you seem to be so determined to paint me as a casual player, perhaps in an effort to help you explain away why I don't agree with your understanding of this issue.

But those things are only a measure of time spent in game, not achievement, which goes to support my point. Gear is no measure of achievement, and once you have what you need, there really is very little rational point to getting it again and again and again. After that, it's more about weird self esteem issues than anything else.

Finally, I'm going to state once again, that I don't have a firm opinion about which loot model is best.

There are advantages to the Gianthold model and advantages to the 3BC model, and the differences don't neatly divide the powergamer and the casual into two completely separate groups.

The people who want tiered loot may also want more challenge in the game too, but those things are really quite separate issues.

Thanks.

[Azarddoze]

Hi,

So, it sounds like we are not running EE content for the same reason.

I run EE content (solo and in group) for challenge, fun, because I like many of the quests, and for the sake of becoming a better player. When I run in group it's because I expect to enjoy running with those other people.

Are you really saying that the only reason, or even the primary reason, you run EE content is for the sake of acquiring EE tier gear? Do none of the reasons I've listed above motivate you to play more than tiered loot?

I like having a well-geared out character too. My main has completed 23 heroic and 16 epic lives, and isn't currently missing any item he could possibly want, aside from some more phlogistons for a full set of Tier 3 TF weapons and a few stubborn epic mats mainly from the Sands.

I only mention the number of reincarnations and amount of gear that character has because you seem to be so determined to paint me as a casual player, perhaps in an effort to help you explain away why I don't agree with your understanding of this issue.

But those things are only a measure of time spent in game, not achievement, which goes to support my point. Gear is no measure of achievement, and once you have what you need, there really is very little rational point to getting it again and again and again. After that, it's more about weird self esteem issues than anything else.

Finally, I'm going to state once again, that I don't have a firm opinion about which loot model is best.

There are advantages to the Gianthold model and advantages to the 3BC model, and the differences don't neatly divide the powergamer and the casual into two completely separate groups.

The people who want tiered loot may also want more challenge in the game two, but those things are really quite separate issues.

Thanks.

Allright, now I can see more clearly where you're coming from. Sorry if I was missleaded by guesses, my bad. I painted you as such because I felt like you sounded as one. Mistake happens.

Everyone plays game for fun but for a MMO (or any game that you'll put hundreds/thousands of hours on), there has to be more than just the challenge. I said it many time but once again, that kind of thing is for single player games or short games. I guess I could express it as I need a motivation to keep me coming back than just hacking on the same mobs again and again without a chance at advancing in any ways.

And I understand and know that it is self inflicted to go the easy route and farm on EH even though it's gonna be facerolled but yet, it seems like the best choice. If the "challenge" of EEs would come from different mechanics and various new stuff, then sure count me in. But as things are, I just have 0 reason to play other than go check out new stuff once when it's out. Now give me a chance at getting the best gear for the greatest challenge and i'll go back to grinding np, I like the game actually. But I can't fight the fact that if i'm going to grind stuff just for the sake of it (or faceroll EH since it seems like the obvious choice), i'm gonna go buy a new single player game on steam instead.

There ain't no best models that will please everyone, but from a neutral point of view, how can just more gear total (or variations) be worse than less? It's kind of like if people wouldn't want more content because they don't personally wanna run it...


Edit: The part about challenge strictly concerns the EE oriented people.
Edit2: As I read the a new post, I guess i should have to clarify that i'm mostly talking about end games EEs. EEs for leveling are fine and worth it.

[Robbenklopper]

Im just asking, do you guys like that running epic elite is not rewarding enough, and do you support that direction the game is taking.

Hey Blackheartox!

No, i don´t like the reward System that much. I´m playing more than average and mainly EH. Every day i pick a quest on EE for thrill and challenge to see what i can do. The crappy EH mainly is too easy. And if i Play on ee, the rewards are mainly no reward, they´re mainly an Insult. EE is much more fun, sometimes much more taking time. And after that, you open the chest and ...... YES!!!!!! FINALLY what i wanted, craploot! So disappointing, i really feel .... you know the word ....

Now look, if i had a much powerful toon and a good static Group, i would do much more EE. I´m not able to zerg through a quest. The better you are, the easier is a quest, and the easier is to get what you want and just a matter of time. But if we all would be that strong, rare and Special items would be very common and AH would be full of that. And Special items shouldnt be spam. But even grinding a 40 times for an EAGA seal wasn´t that much better.

No i´m not happy with it, there should be a "ray of light" in every EE chest for reward or endreward, how to fix it i leave to the developers.

[Yalinaa]

lol

EE sagas are waste of time.

You will get more XP by zerging EH quests at top speed than wasting time for EEs that gives 20k.

I do elites in every iconic life. It's 9-10 true elite sagas at the end, every saga is 150-180k (based on what type of renown pot I will drink). And I usually have leveling partners from guild who do the same. Just imagine what happens when we turn in sagas.

And with XP pot + EE BB streak in an iconic life will get ya to lvl 28 without repeating ANY quest.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply, Azar.

Like I said, I'm not sure of whether tiered loot is the best approach. I do agree that up to a point gear can be a motivation for attempting harder content, but I don't think it is or should be the main focus.

When I first posted in this thread, it was with the aim of getting the OP to talk about why he wanted tiered loot, and what his ideas were for how it would be done. The topic has broadened a lot since that point, and also become quite muddy.

Anyway, it's been nice taking part in this discussion and talking to you.

Thanks and take care.

[Vicania]

Casualization. Curse of all games and all mmos. It was always like that and always will be. Just becouse happy casuals = more money. Angry casuals who cant achieve things with easy butons = rage quit and no money for company. 3bc is a perfect example how you can waste potential of epify an old pack. I know not everyone liked this pack. Personally i always loved it. Pirates, nice quests etc. But what they gave us? Content which you can run once and forget about it. Plus there is totally no reason to run it on EE. What for ? For saga ? Loot drops are close to 25%-30% chance. Items drops like candies. No wonder 3bc few weeks after update is an empty place most of the day.
I was never a big fan of gh loot becouse of level differences between en and ee versions. In my perfect world min level should be same for all items and EE version would be just better. Anyway i had a reason to run EEs and get better items. Trade them for other items or just sell with profits. This way content was never overplayed and there was always a reason to step into those quests. 3bc ? No ty.
In conclusion i really hope they wont make same mistakes with necro4 as they did with 3bc. I really prefer something similar to gh (even with min level variations). But its only my personal opinion. Opinion of non - casual player. Thanks.

[Deadlock]

No no dont take it wrong, i dont want personally to have "better gear" then others.
I want higher difficulties to be more difficult and to provide proper reward for it.
Even if im unable to complete it myself, i just want to be sure that there wil be a reward for higher and more difficult content so that i can work on improving myself to be able to get that reward.

Focus from seeds, from observing lfm today made players shift to high xp/min quest while not turning them in and completing mutliple quests on lower difficulty while turning in once they cap.
Commendation of valor mechanics before this change rewarded players who did all quests on ee and did ee higher tier quests underlevel so that they could collect a epic heart pre cap.

Now, efficiency wise that is not the case, and as efficiency wise there is no reason to run epic elite, we are left with loot, and 3bc showed what they did regarding that..
Initialy i asked myself this: If they will continue with 3bc loot mechanics, is there any point to ee content at all?

You run EE because you want to run EE.

You get some extra XP. Woot. But mostly you do it because you want to.

On the way to level cap, you get more CoV for doing EE so you need to do less at-cap questing for additional Heart Seeds. But as far as the BTA Heart Seeds are concerned, I don't really care that you don't get extra seeds for doing EE. You've already hit cap, and the Heart Seeds are only usable for buying Hearts whereas they are looking at additional uses for CoV, which you do get more of by doing EE.

There's also the True Elite saga rewards which allow you to get the top tier of Saga rewards without having to spend AS to upgrade your reward.

There's favor, but if you've already got Heroic Elite, you don't get extra favor.

None of this is news to you, I know.

In terms of how it will affect the game going forward? It may encourage more grouping and promote LFM's, even if that's not LFM's for EE. I'd rather people were able to join or create a PUG and quest with others, and if I'm at cap and see a random LFM for something on EH then maybe I've got an added incentive to think "why not" and hit the LFM and join them.

But if you feel that you need to be given a reason to run EE other than you want to, then don't do EE.

As regards the loot side of EE like we have in GH, High Road, Shadowfell there was always a plan to allow EN gear to be upgrade to EH with sufficient repetition, and EH to be upgraded to EE with sufficient repetition to help the situation where you run EE a dozen times and get bupkis. That never actually happened. If that mechanism was introduced then I'd be happy to support a loot pass on existing content and a revision to reintroduce EN, EH, EE rated gear.

[Deadlock]

One other thought on the loot thing. If you make EE loot so much more powerful than EH gear without an upgrade path, then everyone will be convinced they "need" EE gear.

So what happens next is everyone starts running EE. They don't realise it requires a change of playstyle for the majority of players. They get whacked. They spend hours trying and failing. They get nothing. Do they look introspectively and consider that perhaps a change of approach and some care is necessary? Hell no! They come on the forums and complain that EE is too difficult, and inevitably EE gets downgraded to EH.

Result is increased casualization. Like I said before, the best reason to run EE is because you want to. I'm all for some extra "attaboy" reward for those that want it and with True Elite saga rewards, you're pretty much there. By all means tweak it so that your 3rd Elite completion reward list guarantees a named EE tier item. Stick an extra Heart Seed into the chain end-reward if all quests in the chain were done on EE. Should be sufficient reward.

[Deadlock]

And with XP pot + EE BB streak in an iconic life will get ya to lvl 28 without repeating ANY quest.

Do you have a breakdown of those numbers?

[Yalinaa]

Will do another iconic soon, so I can get the correct numbers.

But, it should look like this:

lvl 20: Carnival pack, fast Genesis, Sins maybe Bastion in Amrath
lvl 21: Sentinels (without Spies) chain, Red Fens, House Cannith quests, the 2 heroic quests in Eveningstar
lvl 22: Lord of Dust chain, King's Forest, Houses in Schyndylryn
lvl 23: VON 1-2-3-4-5-6, maybe eChrono (dont need to be BB)
lvl 24: Demonweb, OOB, CoF, Wizking, ADQ 1-2, Don't drink the water
lvl 25: Gianthold, Spies in da House, Devil Assault, Belly
lvl 26: 3BC, High Road, Druid's Deep, Study in Sable
lvl 27: Wheloon, Stormhorn, Brothers in Forge

[Rys]

Whole epic lfm is full with mainly eh/en lfms.
snip
Ddo should not be a exception in that regard and should reward higher skilled players with something to make them feel a sense of achievment and progress /for example loot titles/ theras encouraging everyone to get better.

I really like tiered loot implemented in Gianthold/SH/Wheloon and I also like BTA items way more than BTC mainly because of inventory management. So for me the ideal loot would looks like: EN/EH/EE Bound to Account on Equip.

[Vanhooger]

The only reason I've started play EE was because I wanted to Epic tr once I hit cap.

Yesterday I got my first epic heart with seeds in 2 hour, running EN quest.

Now what I'm doing is running all EN content in about 2-10min depending on quest.
It's like 5 chain in 2 hour, why should I play EE for nearly same xp and no loot but x2 or x3 the time and resources?

Why we should run EE content?

- Same loot as normal/hard
- Dont care about COV anymore

Just challenge? Yes, that's ok, but people will get bored fast enough...

[Blackheartox]

One other thought on the loot thing. If you make EE loot so much more powerful than EH gear without an upgrade path, then everyone will be convinced they "need" EE gear.

So what happens next is everyone starts running EE. They don't realise it requires a change of playstyle for the majority of players. They get whacked. They spend hours trying and failing. They get nothing. Do they look introspectively and consider that perhaps a change of approach and some care is necessary? Hell no! They come on the forums and complain that EE is too difficult, and inevitably EE gets downgraded to EH.

Result is increased casualization. Like I said before, the best reason to run EE is because you want to. I'm all for some extra "attaboy" reward for those that want it and with True Elite saga rewards, you're pretty much there. By all means tweak it so that your 3rd Elite completion reward list guarantees a named EE tier item. Stick an extra Heart Seed into the chain end-reward if all quests in the chain were done on EE. Should be sufficient reward.

What you suggested is ok, i mean personally i kinda felt like this seed change for example didnt sit right with me.
So i asked a guildie who is casual player /family job/ what he thinks about it.
So a totally casual player told me, i dont understand why we get 2 seeds on normal, hard and elite.
I would understand if it was 1/2/3.

So, what he said, was kinda a view point that i shared as well.
Example loot, introduce upgrade mechanics is ok, not ideal but to implement that they need to make some kind of ratio between normal/hard/elite.
Like lets say normal is 1, hard is 3, elite is 9. So to upgrade a normal item to elite you would need 9 completitions on normal /or something similiar to that mechanic.
I dont want casuals to be left outside, but something needs to be done with epic elite imo to keep hardcores interested in the game. I understand people saying you do ee for the thrill and personal challenge.
But thing is, that fades away and only thing that remains is the efficiency level.

Here practical example do ee wgu and you feel the thrill, the challenge, the fun and possible amazing loot.
Do Legend of tobias, precious cargo or any 3bc and what?
No extra loot reward, no real challenge, just hp inflated hordes of enemies and when you loot that chest you really dont feel like you achieved something.

I will always pull back to premotu epics, since i found that time to be golden age of ddo.
You could chose what to do, play epics, collect seals/shards/scrolls for items, do raids, tr or make alts.
Also gameplay was more group oriented.

[Paleus]

If most PUGs are looking for EN or EH, I think that's how things SHOULD be. Trivialization occurs when EE becomes the baseline.

This was also my initial thought. Weren't EE groups supposed to be so challenging that people were only able to fill them in channels or guilds? All of a sudden, the default of players pugging was actually elite. But now after this change all the new lfms are suddenly for EN and EH which they've never before been as a default? That chain of argument just sounds shaky to me. Look, I'm all for the suggestion that two seeds regardless of difficulty or quest level is not a good idea (one size fits all solutions rarely are), but lets at least not draw faulty correlations to support that argument. I think the grind for hearts needed to be reduced, but this change may still need some tweaking to find a happier middle ground.