Paladin Changes

[Mryal]

Might as well just roll up a pew pew monk archer, since apparently divine grace is the real problem in this game.

Youre free to roll a pure fighter again now, in heavy armor! Afterall, there was a lot of complaints about not beign able to do that when the enhancement pass came, coming from you.

Anyways.Since you brought the pew pew monk archer subject.Im still waiting for a what is WAI and what isnt dev post about that.
Its cool that you folks are changing heavy armor and paladins based on the PC balance feedback thread.But when are we gonna talk about the other part of the PC balance thread, the bug fixing of some...unnatural sinergies?

[Ivan_Milic]

Might as well just roll up a pew pew monk archer, since apparently divine grace is the real problem in this game.

Finally you see the way.

[Mryal]

Finally you see the way.

The /easybutton way.

[pesch1991]

2 + 3*pally level .....

So, with completionist and deliberate gear accommodation, yugoloth potion, and ship buff, I reached a 40 charisma on my character. Thats a +15 modifier to saves for which I invested, planned, and worked for. Right?

You may see where this is going...

Now, you give the same 2 paladin splash a maximum of 8 modifier to saves, for which barely any work needs to be done. You'd need a 26 charisma to max out, while the divine might that you'd also like to take advantage of will call for a much higher investment than just a 26 charisma.

So, joe shmoe with a 26 charisma will have the same save advantage as any committed player reading this who did the extra work and brain power to fit in a generously higher charisma. I see what you're trying to do here, but this is a blatant nerf to the 2 pally splash and doesn't make going more than 2 pally worthwhile - which is the REAL issue here, as far as I see it. All you accomplished is the reduction in pally splash appeal, not in the increase of deeper pally splash appeal.

In the end, all you are doing is simply nerfing the 2 pally splash by 7 to saves for my character, despite the fact that I invested a completionist feat and gear in order to attain it.

But, how do I get my full 40 charisma to count again?

Well, 4 levels of paladin would give me 14 to saves, which still is 1 point less than what I get now. So, I'd need to splash deeper into pally just to get back what I already have now. You think this is a good plan for paladins? You aren't achieving it by nerfing (my build as an example) 7 saves across the board. This is a very shiradi like approach - where investment doesn't really matter much, here just get your measly 26 modifier and anybody can get 8 to saves from 2 pally splash. I'd wager that, as a fulltime melee DPS build, I probably reached the highest charisma value possible without sacrificing damage. How many people are sitting in the low to mid 30's? These folks get something like 8-12 on their saves for their investment - why would you CAP them at 8?

Might as well just roll up a pew pew monk archer, since apparently divine grace is the real problem in this game.

Well Said

[Ausdoerrt]

But, how do I get my full 40 charisma to count again?

You learn to adapt. In any MMO, if you come up with something that's too good you can expect it to be nerfed. Maybe it's time to start thinking about a new build then

P.S. IMO, Paladin splash is as broken as monk splash. PnP DMs realized this, that's why all the multiclass restrictions were in place for these classes.

[knockcocker]

Paladins suck cause their PrEs are terrible compared to the ones of some other classes: nerfing Divine Might and Divine Grace for splashes will not make paladin suck less.

QFT.

Too many people on here labouring under the assumption that /2 Pal splits only
have ~26 Cha and that this change only affects sorc. splashes. Effective
melee need saves, evasion and CC. Investing in Cha with a /2 Pal split is an
efficient way to achieve that but is not zero cost. This proposal just
invalidates that choice without providing an alternative or even looking at
the underlying mechanics of why this choice is made in the first place.

This won't encourage deeper splashes, it will encourage not splash at all which
I'm sure will be very popular with certain crabs in the DDO forums bucket...

[pesch1991]

QFT.

Too many people on here labouring under the assumption that /2 Pal splits only
have ~26 Cha and that this change only affects sorc. splashes. Effective
melee need saves, evasion and CC. Investing in Cha with a /2 Pal split is an
efficient way to achieve that but is not zero cost. This proposal just
invalidates that choice without providing an alternative or even looking at
the underlying mechanics of why this choice is made in the first place.

This won't encourage deeper splashes, it will encourage not splash at all which
I'm sure will be very popular with certain crabs in the DDO forums bucket...

Yep Wont Bother with Paladins anymore if this change goes live there is no Point to Splash More paladin lvls due to something being nerfed and 26 Cha is a joke and a big Lie

[EllisDee37]

Cetus and pesch, divine grace is clearly unbalanced. It very much needs to change regardless of how much time you personally invested on your specific characters.

I don't disagree that EE saves need rebalancing, because right now it would appear that they require using a clearly unbalanced 2 pally splash. The solution to this problem is NOT "leave the unbalanced ability alone." The solution is to rebalance the broken ability (limiting a 2 splash to +6 saves is more reasonable than +8) and at the same time rebalance the broken content.

I think you guys are lobbying to maintain a status quo that actively hurts the game.

[pesch1991]

Cetus and pesch, divine grace is clearly unbalanced. It very much needs to change regardless of how much time you personally invested on your specific characters.

I don't disagree that EE saves need rebalancing, because right now it would appear that they require using a clearly unbalanced 2 pally splash. The solution to this problem is NOT "leave the unbalanced ability alone." The solution is to rebalance the broken ability (limiting a 2 splash to +6 saves is more reasonable than +8) and at the same time rebalance the broken content.

I think you guys are lobbying to maintain a status quo that actively hurts the game.

Ok Sir could you explain why you think that divine grace is unbalanced atm ? you have to invest a lot to get high saves you dont get them for free so capping it would actually destroy paladins even more because folks wouldnt event bother with 2 paladins then and just scrap it, its not a broken ability in any way you have to work hard to reach high saves its not a freebie and to make it worse limiting it to +6 is madness many builds with high cha and 2 lvls of paladin will loose 10+ saves its not only cetus who has but shiradi casters as well so its not just a nerf to us but to others too EPIC ELITE saves are way toooooo high some months ago i failed a save on a roll of 55 versus delayed blast fireball killing me instantly and now with the release of thunderholme the coupled red dragons in a fire on thunderpeak can 1 shot you on a failed save in epic normal thats ridiculous surely they wont adjust epic elite saves you need +70 in epic elite wheelon thats insane its getting harder and harder what problem do you have regarding divine grace ? everyone can splash 2 paladin lvls and get the save he needs in order to survive epic elite content such a unreasonable change wont do any good ! imo thats pretty selfish to nerf others build for no reason

[Grace_ana]

The change to divine grace would make me sob. Please don't do this.

I get it, saves for monks blah blah blah. But I use that 2 pally splash on my sorc to make her survivable. Getting decent saves otherwise takes way too much away from being a sorc. What I trade away is worth what I get, but the loss of DC spells isn't worth +8 saves. It's particularly painful given the proposed armor changes. Keep in mind that a sorc doesn't have evasion but has to wear robes. So I'd be losing in both sets of proposed changes.

Since the proposed change to divine grace isn't really going to encourage anyone to play a pally into further levels (as has been pointed out in several posts), the nerf seems way out of whack.

[EllisDee37]

Ok Sir could you explain why you think that divine grace is unbalanced atm ?

The fact that you can't live without it is evidence that it's OP compared to splashing 2 of any other class.

Right now in the game, splashing 2 paladin is way OP compared to splashing 2 of anything else except monk, and splashing 2 monk is also way OP.

That's unbalanced.

[Grace_ana]

The fact that you can't live without it is evidence that it's OP compared to splashing 2 of any other class.

Right now in the game, splashing 2 paladin is way OP compared to splashing 2 of anything else except monk, and splashing 2 monk is also way OP.

That's unbalanced.

Eh. What you call unbalanced I call multiclassing. I don't think that the definition of OP is having something you really really want. I mean, that's the case with any multiclass. By splashing, you also have to give things up. I have to give up DC and spells on my sorc. Someone else has to give up something on their build. If what they are giving up isn't great, that doesn't mean the splash is OP; it means the capstone stinks.

Divine grace isn't the problem. The lack of DPS and feats on pallies is the problem. Fix smite. Give some of the bonuses you can get with feats in the enhancement tree. Fix heavy armor as is being discussed in another thread. Problem solved.

[bennyson]

I like the direction of the thread, although I must say this.

Armor of Light is silly, Paladins in DDO don't have any problem dying, their saves are their best defense against most attacks. While this "might" seem good for Heroics, its going to be useless in Epics.

I think changing it to boosting PRR and MRR would be a better idea, with a tiny twist...like 5% chance from any attack towards you dealing burst damage to nearby enemies, similar to how Weapon of Light is possibly going to work.

I, however, agree with everyone else, the problem is with the PrE trees. Fix that, and you've taken the first steps towards pulling Paladins off the Great Wall of Shame.

[Thrudh]

What is so excellent about Loosing +8 saves with 40 Cha+ ? I Wont accept this

Take 4 levels of paladin instead, and you get your saves back... Plus then you'll free up a twist slot since you'll get Turn Undead (for Divine Might) automatically.

[Thrudh]

Well, 4 levels of paladin would give me 14 to saves, which still is 1 point less than what I get now.

1 point less, and you free up a twist spot... Also gives you access to Empower Heal feat, which might be useful for some builds.

Use that hard work and brainpower to adapt to 4 levels of paladin.

The only constant is change... How many times have you changed your build before now? Did you really think your current build would remain unchanged forever?

[pesch1991]

Take 4 levels of paladin instead, and you get your saves back... Plus then you'll free up a twist slot since you'll get Turn Undead (for Divine Might) automatically.

and loose shadow veil + 2 feats (that means i will loose manyshot) and +2 to all saves still also with 4 slots it wont be a problem to twist bane of undeath it even provides bane dmg against undeath so its actually good to have it

[Thrudh]

I think the extra Light damage is very nice for heroic levels... Paladins need something for epic elite though... I'd suggest super-buffing Smite Evils if possible.

With the upcoming armor and paladin changes, I do see me pulling one of my old characters out of storage... I'm excited... Nice work devs!

[pesch1991]

The fact that you can't live without it is evidence that it's OP compared to splashing 2 of any other class.

Right now in the game, splashing 2 paladin is way OP compared to splashing 2 of anything else except monk, and splashing 2 monk is also way OP.

That's unbalanced.

then you should check ddo wiki and read about multiclasses because you dont seem to know much about them

[pesch1991]

1 point less, and you free up a twist spot... Also gives you access to Empower Heal feat, which might be useful for some builds.

Use that hard work and brainpower to adapt to 4 levels of paladin.

The only constant is change... How many times have you changed your build before now? Did you really think your current build would remain unchanged forever?

i wont accept this either

[pesch1991]

Don't break the rules and insult people.

i am not trying to insult anyone just being honest now stop being rude