Paladin Changes

[Wipey]

Why do people splash 2 Pally ? Because the DCs by EE mobs with uber inflated are ridonkulous. Same for the traps.
Why do people splash 4 pally ? Because it's the ONLY way to get some use of Stun Blow. Again, ridiculous stats.
Why people don't play let's say 14- 15 pally ? Reconstruct SLA nonsense, that's why. Better play a ranger, same healing, much much easier Manyshot, 100% off hand.
Why people don't play more offensive pally ? Because Kotc tree is horribad. Lack of feats. And silly sword+board archetype for some unknown reason.

None of these changes solve those problems.

[hunzi2010]

Hello Sev,

just want to pop up with something I think you guys need to take a look at, not just for the Pally but for all classes.
Alot of the old style toon development required for example, toughness to open up the toughness enhancements.
Options like this are no longer required under the new enhancement system.
Now what your development team has created is toons that can splash 3 or 4 levels of various types and Synergise them really well to product a monster of a toon.
Credit where credit is due, some of these builds are great, and make the game fun, but there seems to always be nurf here and nurf there and another nurf,
the Nurfs consist of your development team trying to balance things out by nurfing a class and creating a purple boss that's got 4 billion hp (exaggeration guys)
instead of making the mobs near dam impossible to kill and nurfing the classes, why don't you think about looking at redevelopment of the capstone feat, In my opinion if a player is creating a pureclass, there should be an advantage to playing a pureclass. being able to do multiple thing better than what a pureclass can do is simply wrong.
the old rule of them is you can do 1 thing perfectly or many-things averagely, (not sure if I just made a word here, if so i have the rights :P )
So the problem your being faced with is who would create a pure class toon now???
this is where your issue lies.
I to have had to re roll me beloved Barbarian as he is completely useless with all the changes that have happened over the past 12-18 months.
I think instead of nurfing all these splash builds, lets look at enhancing the cap stone feats and look at the enhancement lines putting restrictions on some of the most popular items where the toon needs to have minim levels to take that enhancement. not 2 levels of this and that and you can use it.
But just giving you some feedback and ideas.
Cheers.

Hunzi

[Delacroix21]

Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.


We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


The updated class table will look like this:

1st +1/+1/+6 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, Smite evil (1/rest), Follower of (your faith)
2nd +2/+2/+7 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, Lay on hands (1/rest)

3rd +3/+3/+8 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, Divine health, Fear Immunity

4th +4/+4/+9 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead

5th +5/+5/+10/+15 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil (2/rest)

6th +6/+6/+11/+16 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease (1/rest), Deity-based feat
7th +7/+7/+12/+17 +5 +2 +2 Armor of Light (25)
8th +8/+8/+13/+18 +6 +2 +2 Weapon of Light (1d6)
9th +9/+9/+14/+19 +6 +3 +3 Remove disease (2/rest)

10th +10/+10/+15/+20 +7 +3 +3 Smite evil (3/rest)

11th +11/+11/+16/+21 +7 +3 +3 Weapon of Light (Burst on 20)
12th +12/+12/+17/+22 +8 +4 +4 Remove disease (3/rest)

13th +13/+13/+18/+23 +8 +4 +4 Armor of Light (50)
14th +14/+14/+19/+24 +9 +4 +4 Weapon of Light (2d6)
15th +15/+15/+20/+25 +9 +5 +5 Remove disease (4/rest), Smite evil (4/rest)

16th +16/+16/+21/+26 +10 +5 +5 -
17th +17/+17/+22/+27 +10 +5 +5 Weapon of Light (Burst x2)
18th +18/+18/+23/+28 +11 +6 +6 Remove disease (5/rest)

19th +19/+19/+24/+29 +11 +6 +6 Armor of Light (75)
20th +20/+20/+25/+30 +12 +6 +6 Weapon of Light (3d6), Smite evil (5/rest)


We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

These changes wont do a DANG thing for epic paladins, which is where they suffer, not heroic levels.

[Delacroix21]

Why do people splash 2 Pally ? Because the DCs by EE mobs with uber inflated are ridonkulous. Same for the traps.
Why do people splash 4 pally ? Because it's the ONLY way to get some use of Stun Blow. Again, ridiculous stats.
Why people don't play let's say 14- 15 pally ? Reconstruct SLA nonsense, that's why. Better play a anything with healing spells, same healing, much much easier Manyshot, 100% off hand.
Why people don't play more offensive pally ? Because Kotc tree is horribad, and too narrow focused. Lack of feats. And silly sword+board archetype for some unknown reason.

None of these changes solve those problems.

Yep.

[Ayseifn]

The Divine Grace change I'm mostly fine with but can you do something with Divine Might?

Right now it's a tier two enhancement and costs 2 AP per tier, Warpriests get it at tier one and its 1 AP per tier. Having the fighting divine class with the most expensive version seems backwards.

[Hilltrot]

To be honest I'd restrict the save element even more - +8 to saves in a D20 system is a massive boost. I'd set the formula at 1 + 2 x paladin level giving +5 to saves at level 2. Still very good bonus to saves but doesn't mean you will have builds that are stupidly ahead of everyone else. Too big a difference between a build with and without paladin levels makes it very hard to balance DCs in content, especially when you factor in evasion.

I agree with this

[HatsuharuZ]

One way of making paladins more useful to players is to improve their spells. Here are some spells that are languishing, and some ways of improving them:

1) Protection From Evil: Gives +2 to saves and AC vs evil creatures. Sadly, the bonus types match those of commonly available items. The bonus type should be changed.

2) Resistance: Bonus to saves. This has the same problem as Protection from Evil.

3) Divine Favor: Up to +3 luck bonus to attack and damage at caster lvl 9, for a short amount of time. I'd suggest raising the max caster level to 15, for a total of +5 to attack and damage.

4) Angelskin: Gives DR 5/evil to a lawful good target. This would be more useful if it gave other benefits like stacking energy resistances that an angel in DnD gets, or PRR, or even increase the DR with caster level.

5) Dispel Magic: Exactly what it says on the box. Removing the caster level cap would increase it's utility.

6) Magic Circle Against Evil: See "Protection From Evil" entry.

7) Prayer: Slightly buffs friendly targets and slightly buffs enemies. Increase benefits with caster level and it may be used more often.

8) Break Enchantment: AoE version of dispel magic. See "Dispel Magic" entry.

9) Holy Sword: Makes a permanent weapon with various useful damaging and DR-breaking abilities. The material components are expensive, do not stack in inventory and do not cover all types of melee weapons, however. Please make this into an item imbue.

10) Zeal: 10% sacred bonus to doublestrike. I'd suggest making it increase with caster level, up to a point. Either that, or increase the benefit if the caster is using a faith weapon.


Other suggestions:

The spell list for paladins is very sparse. I'd suggest taking a look at the DnD spell list for paladins and taking things from there. Players would especially welcome the "Aura of Glory" spell, which gives the caster and nearby allies a temporary +2 morale bonus to charisma, if I remember correctly.

[droid327]

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

So basically this will just add a bubble to LoH. Cure Disease and Turn are not on anyone's hotbar, because they're pointless in actual play. Smite is restricted by charges, so you're only going to use it on bosses and other times you "need" the extra damage, and 75 HP isn't much to talk about against Epic level bosses.

Needs more triggers/a better trigger - on-vorpal seems too obvious and random, but maybe a % chance when doing Light damage, or a 100% chance when taking Negative Energy damage? That'd, obviously, make Paladins extremely effective against Undead, which is befitting. Or as someone else suggested, make Smite on a CD with unlimited use, so it can basically just be a bonus effect on Smite. It also needs one more dimension to it, something else to jazz it up - maybe have the bubble be an AOE effect, so all the other melee fighters get Temp HP too? Again, befitting Paladin's role as a frontline leader and protector.

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

Depending how the Spellpower boosts work, this is rather lackluster considering how many levels you have to invest. Its got to be competitive with splashing another class for feats/enhancements/etc. Its basically just like wearing a Runearm plus an AOE proc, but instead of just taking 2 Arti levels, its taking 6-12 Pally levels.

If this is supposed to be the cornerstone of Paladin-centric offense, it needs additional jazz...here's some spitballing:

11: add AOE-on-20 has a chance to temporarily blind all affected enemies (DC: 10+Cha bonus+Pal levels vs Neutral or Good enemies, +10 more vs Evil) for [Pal level] seconds, or [Pal level/2] vs Red-name and [Pal level/4] vs Purple.
14: add On crit: stacking 5% Divine-type bonus to melee speed, stacks 5 times, duration 5 seconds, increments down 1 tick on expiration.
17: add AOE-on-20 has a chance to stun all affected enemies (DC: d20+Cha bonus+Pal levels) for [Pal level/2] seconds, half that vs Red and half again vs Purple.
20: add On crit: stacking 5% vulnerability to Light damage and 1% to Physical damage, stacks to 20.

I think that'd give a pure Paladin a complete offensive playbook commensurate with other classes, without eclipsing them. It also would make them very good for party play.

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.

I support this. No class skill should be so binary between having and not having it that you drop 2 levels into a class just for that one skill. You're addressing that problem with Evasion, and this would address the problem with DG.

On top of all that, I think Pal should get CHA-to-dmg as an option somewhere in their trees. You shouldn't have to take PDK just to get one of your main class stats as your damage stat. Its not like there's "caster Pally vs melee Pally" to consider, like there is for, say, Cleric.

Radically, I might suggest that the alignment restriction be removed to merely make them Good, or to give a certain specific alignment restriction based on Deity...ie, Silver Flame must be LG, Sovereign Host must be NG, LoB must be LN, etc. etc. That'd allow for Pal combinations with other classes (specifically the new Bard with Swashbuckler, and Barb) that might make certain deeper-Pal-splashed builds more attractive.

[pHo3nix]

Why do people splash 2 Pally ? Because the DCs by EE mobs with uber inflated are ridonkulous. Same for the traps.
Why do people splash 4 pally ? Because it's the ONLY way to get some use of Stun Blow. Again, ridiculous stats.
Why people don't play let's say 14- 15 pally ? Reconstruct SLA nonsense, that's why. Better play a ranger, same healing, much much easier Manyshot, 100% off hand.
Why people don't play more offensive pally ? Because Kotc tree is horribad. Lack of feats. And silly sword+board archetype for some unknown reason.

None of these changes solve those problems.

^This.

Reaching a workable stunning blow DC for EE without Divine Might is simply not possible, that's why people stopped bothering with stunning blow unless they splash fvs/clr/paladin (and they got everything you can get, ie 3xFighter PL, completionist, a race with tactics bonus).

It's the same for Divine Grace: there are exceptions (like builds where your main stat can be used for a save, then you can spend a couple of twist slots and with every possible items that boost saves you can reach a decent save) but for most builds if you want your saves to mean something in EE you need Divine Grace, a fair investment in CHA and every possible item that boosts saves. We are back to the old AC: you either go full ****** for saves or you don't care about them and find workarounds.

Nerfing Divine Grace and Divine Might without changing both the DCs (of traps and mobs abilities) and Saves of EE mobs makes no sense. A lot of problems with the current game are caused by how EE works: instead of wasting time in trying to fix the symptoms (pally splashes, monk splashes, ..) you should try to fix the cause, ie EE.

Paladins suck cause their PrEs are terrible compared to the ones of some other classes: nerfing Divine Might and Divine Grace for splashes will not make paladin suck less.

[Monkey_Archer]

Paladins suck cause their PrEs are terrible compared to the ones of some other classes: nerfing Divine Might and Divine Grace for splashes will not make paladin suck less.

Ideally, a nerf to Divine might for splashes could simultaneously be a significant buff to pure paladins with the right formula...

[pesch1991]

NERFING divine Grace Wont do any good people who ask for it dont know how bad the change is most of us have 40+ Cha NOT only Sorcer but melee as well Check the saves Required to survive in storhorms its Way to high you either have 70 or dont Bother at all same goes for epic gianthold Dragons in thunderpeak on epic normal can 1 shot you on a failed save, dont believe me? Go see for Yourself dont forget it is we who keep the newbies Alive in epic elite with the change more of us will quit and more newbies will get tired and Leave as well People Wont Even Splash 2 paladin lvls and just scrap it as a whole

[pesch1991]

Ideally, a nerf to Divine might for splashes could simultaneously be a significant buff to pure paladins with the right formula...

dont you get it ? People Wont play pure Paladins for 1d6 light dmg its ********

[Hilltrot]

I hate having to wait till page 7 in the hope of being read.

Thank you for looking at this, but I think you going at this the wrong way. Think Paladin D&D, not Paladin WoW. Right now you're headed toward Paladin WoW.

The abilities for Paladin are good. They have to be reworked.

First, Lay on hands is too rare and anyone with levels of Paladin can lay on Hands as much as someone with 20. In fact, a sorcerer at level 20 with 2 levels of paladin may Lay on hands more often and better than a 20th level pure Paladin.

Don't take away Lay on Hands from the Sorcerer or even make them weaker, but give the Paladin a ton more. I think that giving the Paladin 1 Lay on hands per level at 2nd level and above would encourage more levels of paladin being taken while improving game balance. Much better than "armor of light"

Smite evil at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19 should include a passive cumulative +1 bane damage. Light damage should be located in the enhancements.

Aura of good needs to be moved to level 5 and increase in power as the paladin levels. Aura if good was meant to get more powerful as one leveled in 3.5.. Being powerful enough to protect others should have to wait until level 5.

Remove disease should naturally improve to Greater Restoration without enhancements.

Get rid of the Spell list, keep the spell points and move the good spells to the enhancement trees as SLAs.

Please note! You don't need ultra-powerful capstones, if you make the proposed fixes to evasion.

[Deathdefy]

The changes aren't enough; as it stands more people won't play paladin, just slightly fewer will splash two pally.

Re: Armour of Light:
+75 temp hp on Lay on Hands, etc isn't really a drawcard. It's a mildly pleasant perk in the vein of the joys of a level 10 artificer's ablative armour.

I'm not saying scrap it, just that it's pretty weak.

What about a passive additional +1 per 2 Paladin Levels Enhancement bonus to heavy/medium armour and shields as well?

Still weak, but at least a little bit more fun, and +20 AC when using heavy/medium armour and a shield is almost a drawcard. Alternatively, a freebie +1 PRR and/or +1 MRR per paladin level.

Maybe free Shield Mastery at level 6, free Tower Shield proficiency at level 12, and more shield junk at 18. Can you auto-grant Legendary Shield Mastery for pure Paladins at level 20 despite it being epic?

Re: Weapon of Light
I appreciate you've said that the light damage might/will scale with certain types of spellpower (I'm guessing light and/or alignment), but it's still pretty weak since 3d6 x say, 200%, that doesn't scale with crits, etc doesn't actually measure up to anything that works multiplicatively with crits.

Having said that, more crit nonsense isn't what the game needs. I'm down with light damage on hit for paladins. It just needs to be more or better. Throw in something Holy Smite-ish on 20s (with a chance at stunning or blindness or auto-consecrating ground). And just more Light damage. Maybe even a flat 1 light damage per paladin level (still affected by spell power), that, if you take a certain capstone, jumps to 2 light damage per paladin level at level 20.

I don't know. It just needs more. This '3d6' per hit stuff just doesn't cut it any more.

Re: Capstone (I appreciate this is tangential, but this is an opportunity!)
I think most people are now pro level 20 abilities being geared toward epics now, and in that vein most are severly underpowered.

This is a good chance to change that by making capstone abilities something that belong in tier 5 of an ED (a la bard evasion in swashy) rather than the current crop of rubbish capstones that wouldn't make the cut for Tier 1 of Fatesinger.

Free Epic Destiny feats (Legendary Shield Mastery + Bastion of Defense), +20 light damage per hit, increase the multiple of MRR provided by shields by 1... that sort of thing.

Or all of that, and while I still don't think it would happen, I'd love to see a Paladins are OP thread!

[pHo3nix]

Ideally, a nerf to Divine might for splashes could simultaneously be a significant buff to pure paladins with the right formula...

Divine Might was fine when it was a bonus to damage and it was limited by pally/fvs/clr levels and you needed a high base CHA to get it. Making it a STR bonus and the inflation of mob saves to compensate for the insane powercreep just created problems, cause now it's a must have if you want a decent stunning blow DC.

When the cap was 20 a lot of classes could have a decent stunning blow with some effort, now you need to have 3xFighter PLs, completionist, Divine Might, possibly a couple of fighter levels for tactic bonus, a race with tactic bonus, an ED twist if you aren't running in LD and even with everything it's still not 95% reliable everywhere.

So i got no problem with them going back to the old DM as long as they revisit the saves of EE mobs, cause otherwise stunning blow will become really a worthless feat.

[Irongutz2000]

12 fighter 6 monk 2 paladin

Because they r trying to fix paladin not ur 2nd most broken build in the game.

[Kalevor]

Great! Changes to paladin!! We deserved!

You would be better off giving them bonus feat at 2,7,13,19, Choice from a list of TWF, ITWF, GTWF, THF, ITHF, GTHF, SWF, ISWF, GSWF, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Cleave, Great Cleave, Quicken Spell, Maximize Spell, Empower Healing, Empower Spell, and Extend Spell. Alternatively you could force Paladins into a particular combat style (like Rangers are) and just give them the appropriate feat at 1,6,11.

Basically give them some feat to take a fighting style and still have enough left over to take the feat that help distinguished the class from Fighter. Bonus Feat like this are what make Ranger work use this approach to fix Paladin as well.

I like this idea, 3-4 extra feats at those levels will help a lot.

Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead.

Please... A paladin don't need more survavility, need more DPS...

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

This is interesting but not enough... But if this damage is modified by light spell power... could be very interesting!

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

This is very fair, i like the change.

My 2cents:
- Make the capstone of KotC give a +1 to the crit mult of an smite evil.
- Make the capstone of SaD give avoidace/dodge/PRR bonus enough to be apealing.

This way people would think a lot about splah for evasion/feats/etc... or have a nice capstone.

[pesch1991]

Because they r trying to fix paladin not ur 2nd most broken build in the game.

you call it broken ? if it was broken as you implied it would be able to solo fall of truth on epic elite difficulty have slayer arrow + adrenaline with manyshot/10k stars do 30k instant dmg + abudant step and so on know what i mean ? melees need more love not more nerfs understand ? iam getting sick of player helpful fixes like that which isnt needed please if you are about to nerf divine might (nerf stun) divine grace (nerf evasion) robes (nerf prr dodge cap still 25% btw) THEN REMOVE EPIC ELITE DIFFICULTY TOO. Severlin if you do own a ddo test account then try to solo epic elite stormhorn or gianthold you will see what i mean

[pesch1991]

Great! Changes to paladin!! We deserved!



I like this idea, 3-4 extra feats at those levels will help a lot.



Please... A paladin don't need more survavility, need more DPS...



This is interesting but not enough... But if this damage is modified by light spell power... could be very interesting!



This is very fair, i like the change.

My 2cents:
- Make the capstone of KotC give a +1 to the crit mult of an smite evil.
- Make the capstone of SaD give avoidace/dodge/PRR bonus enough to be apealing.

This way people would think a lot about splah for evasion/feats/etc... or have a nice capstone.

change to divine grace isnt fair because i invested a lot time and effort to reach a high cha score on a melee class with that i will effectively loose +8 saves do you even know how annoying it is ?

[pesch1991]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KooRBgbm3Iw nerf monkchers instead thanks