Paladin Changes

[Thrudh]

and loose shadow veil + 2 feats (that means i will loose manyshot) and +2 to all saves still also with 4 slots it wont be a problem to twist bane of undeath it even provides bane dmg against undeath so its actually good to have it

What do you have now? 12/6/2 fighter/monk/paladin?

Switch to 10/6/4 fighter/monk/paladin or 8/6/6 and you only lose Power Surge (you can make back two of the STR you lose with KoTC STR enhancements) and 1-2 feats (don't tell me you can't find another feat to drop besides Manyshot)

[Thrudh]

i wont accept this either

How have you lasted this long? Did you just not accept any of the past changes either? You still playing a Batman build?

[EllisDee37]

then you should check ddo wiki and read about multiclasses because you dont seem to know much about them

List the 2 splashes that give as much power as paladin and monk.

[bennyson]

i am not trying to insult anyone just being honest now stop being rude

Your complaining about something when your not going to accept. Armor is getting buffed beyond recognition, can't you come up with a new build?

[pesch1991]

What do you have now? 12/6/2 fighter/monk/paladin?

Switch to 10/6/4 fighter/monk/paladin or 8/6/6 and you only lose Power Surge (you can make back two of the STR you lose with KoTC STR enhancements) and 1-2 feats (don't tell me you can't find another feat to drop besides Manyshot)

without powersurge i could as well drop divine might because it wouldnt make any sense to have it any longer thats how stunning blow works dc would be way too low for epic elite and why do i have to go through a change for no reason ? i dont want to change anything and mess up with my gear layout again not worth the effort

[bennyson]

without powersurge i could as well drop divine might because it wouldnt make any sense to have it any longer thats how stunning blow works dc would be way too low for epic elite and why do i have to go through a change for no reason ? i dont want to change anything and mess up with my gear layout again not worth the effort

So you want the "Easy Button" is that it?

Work. Harder.

[unbongwah]

Div Grace wouldn't need to be nerfed were it not for the stat hyperinflation in DDO. In the old days when +6 items were as good as it got, Div Grace provided a respectable boost to saves, but wasn't a panacea and involved a reasonable opportunity cost. Nowadays you can have +5 tome + 10 item + 3 insight + 2 ship buff + 2 Yugo pot; you can dump-stat CHA on most builds and still wind up with CHA 30 with comparatively little effort. From a game balance perspective, open-ended bonuses from splashing are OP; Div Grace & Div Might are Exhibits #1 & #2 of that phenomenon.

However, the proposed change to Div Grace doesn't eliminate pally splashes, it just encourages you to splash a little deeper. The flip side to the game-balance equation is how EEs work, and in particular that anyone without Div Grace is at a serious disadvantage. But that's a topic for another thread.

[pesch1991]

List the 2 splashes that give as much power as paladin and monk.

16 sorcer 2 monk 2 paladin, 18 sorcer 2 paladin, 12 rogue 6 paladin 2 monk or 12 rogue 6 monk 2 paladin, 16 favoured soul 2 paladin 2 monk, 18 favoured soul 2 paladin, almost any build except barbarian bard and druid can splash paladin lvls and almost any build except barbarian bard can splash monk. asking for more examples ?

[pesch1991]

So you want the "Easy Button" is that it?

Work. Harder.

funny you telling me to work harder ? i spent a lot time and effort for my build and i know what to do i dont need to be lectured by you now stop getting on my nerves you are just jealous of others thats all work harder and dont be jealous.
try running epic elite melees only have stunning blow nothing else you want them to nerf this too ? why not remove melee as a whole and just play pew pew thats what you think i bet

[Krelar]

16 sorcer 2 monk 2 paladin, 18 sorcer 2 paladin, 12 rogue 6 paladin 2 monk or 12 rogue 6 monk 2 paladin, 16 favoured soul 2 paladin 2 monk, 18 favoured soul 2 paladin, almost any build except barbarian bard and druid can splash paladin lvls and almost any build except barbarian bard can splash monk. asking for more examples ?

So you're trying prove his point for him? He was asking you for splashes that don't use monk or pally but are just as strong as those that do....

[pesch1991]

So you're trying prove his point for him? He was asking you for splashes that don't use monk or pally but are just as strong as those that do....

the point is almost everyone can splash paladin or monk lvls (or both) it doesnt matter its clearly a nerf

[Grace_ana]

List the 2 splashes that give as much power as paladin and monk.

1. Rogue splashes give evasion and trap skills, both of which are pretty awesome and the reason people have been splashing 2 rogue forever.
2. FVS splashes give Just Reward, which is endless sp and therefore endless power for caster builds.
3. Druid splash is nearly vital for any stick build due to shillelagh.
4. Fighter splash is incredibly common for extra feats.

I stuck to the shallow splashes for sake of equivalent argument. I don't recall anyone ever claiming over the last several years that rogue was OP. I doubt anyone right now would say that fvs or druid are OP. The fact is that there are several classes for which a shallow splash can confer a ton more power. Some classes are more versatile and can apply to more builds, but that doesn't change the fact that splashes for extra power are and should be a major part of DDO. If a multiclass didn't confer a significant amount of power, there would be no point in multiclassing.

[pHo3nix]

Cetus and pesch, divine grace is clearly unbalanced. It very much needs to change regardless of how much time you personally invested on your specific characters.

I don't disagree that EE saves need rebalancing, because right now it would appear that they require using a clearly unbalanced 2 pally splash. The solution to this problem is NOT "leave the unbalanced ability alone." The solution is to rebalance the broken ability (limiting a 2 splash to +6 saves is more reasonable than +8) and at the same time rebalance the broken content.

I think you guys are lobbying to maintain a status quo that actively hurts the game.

Divine Grace is perfectly fine. EE DCs aren't fine. If EE DCs were lower, divine grace would be absolutely optional, ie you could splash 2 pally and avoid slotting some item that boost saves or you could avoid the pally splash and slot items to have good saves, you would have choice. With the current EE you need to slot items that boost saves AND you need to splash 2 pally, there is no choice at all if you want your saves to be ok.

It's exactly like evasion: evasion is perfectly fine, what's not fine is that having evasion is so good in 90% of the game cause the main treats are reflex based saves.

The problem is how EE are designed, so instead of trying to change everything that works in EE they should just change EE, making them even harder if they want, but harder in a different way from "you need 70+ saves" and "let's add a 0 at the end of mobs HP and damage".

[Grace_ana]

divine grace is perfectly fine. Ee dcs aren't fine. If ee dcs were lower, divine grace would be absolutely optional, ie you could splash 2 pally and avoid slotting some item that boost saves or you could avoid the pally splash and slot items to have good saves, you would have choice. With the current ee you need to slot items that boost saves and you need to splash 2 pally, there is no choice at all if you want your saves to be ok.

It's exactly like evasion: Evasion is perfectly fine, what's not fine is that having evasion is so good in 90% of the game cause the main treats are reflex based saves.

The problem is how ee are designed, so instead of trying to change everything that works in ee they should just change ee, making them even harder if they want, but harder in a different way from "you need 70+ saves" and "let's add a 0 at the end of mobs hp and damage".

qft

[B0ltdrag0n]

1. Rogue splashes give evasion and trap skills, both of which are pretty awesome and the reason people have been splashing 2 rogue forever.
2. FVS splashes give Just Reward, which is endless sp and therefore endless power for caster builds.
3. Druid splash is nearly vital for any stick build due to shillelagh.
4. Fighter splash is incredibly common for extra feats.

I stuck to the shallow splashes for sake of equivalent argument. I don't recall anyone ever claiming over the last several years that rogue was OP. I doubt anyone right now would say that fvs or druid are OP. The fact is that there are several classes for which a shallow splash can confer a ton more power. Some classes are more versatile and can apply to more builds, but that doesn't change the fact that splashes for extra power are and should be a major part of DDO. If a multiclass didn't confer a significant amount of power, there would be no point in multiclassing.

1 only matters in heroics
2 only done on a very small subset of builds
3.lolwhat? The two best stick get no Benefit from sheleigh
4 fighter splash is for centered weapons

Still we both agree that pal2 splash isn't the problem that needs solved

[eachna_gislin]

I think the cap on divine grace is fine.

I dont think any of the changes here are exciting enough to get folks rolling paladins again.

The problem isnt a few D6 of damage. THe fact that some dev thinks this is a game changing solution is disappointing.

The problem with Paladins is that they are a feat starved class with Bad PrE lines.

I concur (except that I do play paladins and I will continue to do so).

Paladins _are_ feat starved. The PnP paladins had mounts and their smites worked differently. Turbine stripped away much of their potency and didn't replace it with feats.

Rangers were given bow feats and twf to compensate them for losing their pets and some of their PnP damage. Paladins were given a standard feat table and told to lump it. While the endgame was still d20 based, the combination of undead and demon/devil damage was enough to make them interesting but those days are long past. The new engame systems are all percentage based.

Paladins need more feats. The last beneficial breakpoint to play a paladin is taking zeal. Every level after that is pretty much literally wasted (it's "better" to splash into any number of other classes than stay pure). So, I'd back-load bonus feats into those levels (either 3@ 16, 18, 20 or, to be really kind 4@ 16, 17, 19, 20).

Someone else posted this list, but I'll borrow it: Paladin bonus feat list would be: Tower Shield, Bastard Sword, Toughness, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Deflection, Empower Heal, Force of Personality, Extra Turning, Improved Turning, Magical Training, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical.

That gives a player some build flexibility without watering down fighters.

As other have pointed out the paladin spell book is a joke. It needs to be gone over and some epic-centric tweaks should be put in. I like the twin suggestions that the Holy Sword spell be turned into a weapon imbue (in effect making any weapon you wield holy) _and_ that the extra light damage being suggested be tied into using the holy sword. As a spell, radiance spellpower can easily apply (and would be sorely needed to be effective in epics). I'd go so far as to suggest that the devs re-work Holy Sword to work in a similar way to the longsword Divine Vengeance. As you gain levels, the spell could give you stacking SR (or maybe the new MRR), good damage (or light damage), radiance with blinding, etc. I'm sure someone could provide a reasonable curve where it doesn't steamroll heroics but still proves useful in epics.

The last point is the prestige classes. The tank prestige is terrible. It's close to useless and the sacred bonus has been gutted for paladins to the benefit of stalwart fighters. Hopefully the new PRR/MRR changes will make this more useful.

The Knight of the Chalice/Hunter of the Dead prestige _must_ get a capstone that combines the two damage lines (the same way divine disciples get both necro and light lines). This is what people very clearly asked for, for years. The devs combined the two prestiges and did *not* provide the much-needed combined bonuses, and then had the nerve to pretend they'd "listened". All that was done was to weaken the final prestige by making it unfocused. *Finally* "listening" to what paladin players are asking for and giving them the combined damage types would be useful. By tying it to a prestige capstone there's no worries people would 'splash' paladin for the benefit. It's still weak but at least it's something. With fresh outsiders in epic content and and epic Necropolis in the pipeline, this would have use going forward.

Paladins still need their third prestige. Someone else provided the suggestion that there be a casting-focused one. That's not a bad idea...maybe something that boosts turning and creates a few SLAs that have a paladin flavor. Maybe a heroic heal over time that provides a temp hp buffer (a bit like a weaker cocoon) and some others that provide stacking PRR/MRR, and at least one nice alternate smite. A lot of good work has gone into divine balancing lately. I'm sure the same team could do wonders if assigned to paladins.

[JOTMON]

List the 2 splashes that give as much power as paladin and monk.

Rogue - Evasion, SA, traps, Skill points, UMD
Fighter- Feats
Druid - rams might, spell points
Artificer - rune arm, conjure bolts., sell points, puppy lever puller
Ranger-bow strenght, rapid shot, twf, favoured enemy.
Wizard - Metamagic feat, Spell access

all depends on what you are looking for...

[axel15810]

I'm not sure that the divine grace change solves the problem.

Even with a +8 cap for 2 pally splash, the problem is that saves numbers required in EE are so high that to make them meaningful you are FORCED to splash pally. Right now you may as well dump saves completely if you don't pally splash because they won't amount to enough in EE to matter. This shouldn't be the case and this change doesn't address this issue.

You should be able to get meaningful EE saves without the splash. Until this change is made, every melee who runs EE will continue to be forced to splash pally just to get their saves to a decent number. Having dumped saves = instant death in top end EE content.

Ideally, pure pallies should save pretty much always in EE, those with pally splash should save most of the time, and those without pally splash should still be able to save a decent amount of the time if fully geared.

So overall, all this change will do is force characters to splash more pally levels just to be viable in epic elite. Instead of 2 pally levels being mandatory as it is now, 4-6 will now be mandatory with this change. In effect you'll be harming character customization. Address the real problem, monster DCs that are too high.

[Irongutz2000]

you call it broken ? if it was broken as you implied it would be able to solo fall of truth on epic elite difficulty have slayer arrow + adrenaline with manyshot/10k stars do 30k instant dmg + abudant step and so on know what i mean ? melees need more love not more nerfs understand ? iam getting sick of player helpful fixes like that which isnt needed please if you are about to nerf divine might (nerf stun) divine grace (nerf evasion) robes (nerf prr dodge cap still 25% btw) THEN REMOVE EPIC ELITE DIFFICULTY TOO. Severlin if you do own a ddo test account then try to solo epic elite stormhorn or gianthold you will see what i mean

Um this is hurting monkchers to , stop being so whinney and close minded to changes, they r going to happen, adapt and deal with it or play a different game. U think anyone cares if u rage quit? Cause they don't. They really don't.

Besides this is a group game soloing is for ppl who need to strut there internet uberness.

And yes I hate monkchers too. but I think ur way over reacting.

[kierg10]

Don't have the time to read the whole thread so here is what I want to say on this:

The divine grace changes: just don't do it. In EEs you need every possible boost to saves due to the ridiculously high levels of enemy DCs, so limiting the cha bonus to 8 on any build with 2 pally levels will kill a lot of builds and **** off a lot of players.

the light damage: Really worthless 6-36 damage at level 28 is pretty laughable. Make it so that paladins get some enhancements to boost this, make it amplifiable by crits/adrenaline/master's blitz and make there an epic feat so taht you can get more dice for it. Paladins at the top end are probably a solid 50-100 damage behind classes like fighter (from my experience epic level paladin hits for approx 100-150 without max gear and with a good weapon, fighter hits for 200-250 with a mediocre weapon), so maybe make it so that paladins can get up to 15d6 damage.....this would mean that paladins are still slightly behind paladins, but so that paladins are competitive DPS.....or maybe just 12d6 if you really don't want them that close....but at this point realistically fighters can so easily have just as good self healing as paladins (SF pots for emergencies, cacoon or reconstruct SLA for in fight non-emergencies and heal or recon scrolls for out of combat topping up) that the "paladins self healing>fighter self healing therefore no good pally DPS" argument just doesn't work.