Paladin Changes

[sirgog]

Out of the loop (hardly played since the 25 cap) but to me, the light damage needs to scale up with epic levels somehow.

How about this:


Pal7: You get +1d6 damage (double with two-handers). If your overall character level is 23 or higher, this damage is tripled. If you are level 27 or higher, it is instead quadrupled.
Pal13: Improves to 2d6. Scales as above at character level 23/27 to 6d6/8d6 with one handers, 12d6/16d6 with two-handers.

[Kalevor]

change to divine grace isnt fair because i invested a lot time and effort to reach a high cha score on a melee class with that i will effectively loose +8 saves do you even know how annoying it is ?

So... you can't solo FoT with a cetus build, one of the most broken builds nowdays? well its a very difficult quest... maybe u need to try harder...

And when you finish, try to make the same with a paladin (pure or with a light splash), i can't imagine some1 doing that...

This is interesting but not enough... But if this damage is modified by light spell power... could be very interesting!

I made some numbers and are very low damge... very low... this is not enough.

[pesch1991]

So... you can't solo FoT with a cetus build, one of the most broken builds nowdays? well its a very difficult quest... maybe u need to try harder...

And when you finish, try to make the same with a paladin (pure or with a light splash), i can't imagine some1 doing that...



I made some numbers and are very low damge... very low... this is not enough.

no sir no melee in the world can solo fall of truth on epic elite lol you think its easy ? step in and try i will give ya 2 secs most only monkchers can do that dont try to defend the most broken splash

[Monkey_Archer]

you call it broken ? if it was broken as you implied it would be able to solo fall of truth on epic elite difficulty have slayer arrow + adrenaline with manyshot/10k stars do 30k instant dmg + abudant step and so on know what i mean ? melees need more love not more nerfs understand ? iam getting sick of player helpful fixes like that which isnt needed please if you are about to nerf divine might (nerf stun) divine grace (nerf evasion) robes (nerf prr dodge cap still 25% btw) THEN REMOVE EPIC ELITE DIFFICULTY TOO. Severlin if you do own a ddo test account then try to solo epic elite stormhorn or gianthold you will see what i mean

This post makes me smile Maybe I'm showing my DDO age, but I remember my first epic solo was with a ~350 hp human wizard healing with 34 UMD heal scrolls. How times have changed. Apparently now theres no point in even having EE difficulty unless you can spam heal to full, avoid 90% of all damage and kill mobs in 2 seconds.

[Alternative]

After having more thought on the issue and reading some of the comments, I want to STRONGLY echo the necessity for the Divin Might revamp. It is awkward, in the sense that you have to pump cha, so that you pump str, but then you might just pump str some more from the start? It needs to be a bonus to damage AND to hit, either full cha mod or half of it. Also to a minor extent a bonus to tactical feats. If you want to limit it usefulness to other classes (which I don't care about personally) just make it scale with paladin levels like you plan to with divine grace.

Also smites need to be a lot better, currently it's weaker than some abilities other classes get without limited charges. Either make them regen faster or improve the power, think of the actual end game when you do this.

[Ausdoerrt]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

Excellent.

The rest is a good starting point as well. A closed look at Sentinel ED is also warranted, methinks - it's a paladin-y tree, and it sucks horribly.

Also, hoping to see this as soon as possible - I want to play my pally again. Also please, more Paladin-themed weapons. Divine Vengeance was excellent.

[pesch1991]

After having more thought on the issue and reading some of the comments, I want to STRONGLY echo the necessity for the Divin Might revamp. It is awkward, in the sense that you have to pump cha, so that you pump str, but then you might just pump str some more from the start? It needs to be a bonus to damage AND to hit, either full cha mod or half of it. Also to a minor extent a bonus to tactical feats. If you want to limit it usefulness to other classes (which I don't care about personally) just make it scale with paladin levels like you plan to with divine grace.

Also smites need to be a lot better, currently it's weaker than some abilities other classes get without limited charges. Either make them regen faster or improve the power, think of the actual end game when you do this.

You want divine might to be the same and make melee Even More worthless wow changing it to +4 dmg will Result in 11 dmg and and +15 Tactic dcs lost

[pesch1991]

Excellent.

The rest is a good starting point as well. A closed look at Sentinel ED is also warranted, methinks - it's a paladin-y tree, and it sucks horribly.

Also, hoping to see this as soon as possible - I want to play my pally again. Also please, more Paladin-themed weapons. Divine Vengeance was excellent.

What is so excellent about Loosing +8 saves with 40 Cha+ ? I Wont accept this

[Sebastrd]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

Also, and as has been stated by others in this thread, you really ought to address the need for Divine Grace in epics before you consider nerfs to the ability.

[pesch1991]

Also, and as has been stated by others in this thread, you really ought to address the need for Divine Grace in epics before you consider nerfs to the ability.

I wish others would think like that because most Here are asking for Nerfs without its consequences and just wish to destroy a good Build because they suck and want others to suck as well especially those who invested a Lot time and gearing

[Holybird]

I wish others would think like that because most Here are asking for Nerfs without its consequences and just wish to destroy a good Build because they suck and want others to suck as well especially those who invested a Lot time and gearing

We understand that you are frustrated because you used a lot of time to get good gear and getting those saves to working level on Epic Elites. I would be frustrated too, being frustrated is understandable. But that is not understandable or acceptable that you say that all who don't like the power of Divine Grace suck. I have friend who plays 16sorc/2pali/2monk and with so little invesments he could acchieve no-fail saves and he is allmost impossible to kill. Thing is different with melees I know. But being rude to others with different opinions is just not very intelligent or logical. I am pretty sure that you know how to play this game, but only thing you have to learn is how to argue intelligently and without being rude and without hurting other peoples feelings. Try to be nice, it is better way to tell your opinions than pressing caps-lock on and start to shouting at other peoples faces.

P.S I like your ideas Severlin

-with all respect Holybird

[Atremus]

I have played a few full Paladin Lives (pure / 18/2 evasion) and they are lacking in Damage more than anything. Give Paladins more DPS while you are making changes.

My Suggestions:
Give them autogranted MetaMagic Feats at Every 4th Level (similar to Ranger) to free up Feat space for weapon stuff. Suggested Feats: empower healing, maximize, extend, quicken. Now this doesn't do much for BladeForged but BF are already plenty powerful.

Next you must fix the trees. When Devils were endgame, KoTC made sense. Now... Well KoTC is just wasted Dev Time. We need more Damage that can be applied throughout the games content. If you want to do a D6 light damage feature at least make it so we can increase it up to 60d6 or 100d6 (tied to pally level or just via the tree). A paladin is usually the last man standing. But if you cant kill anything what good are you? A big smathering of light damage that is constant would help.

Give them more class skills and skill points if possible. Stat starved classes have little room to invest in INT.

I like the temporary HP idea but I would request that you increase the temp HP to 100. Not OP but good.


Remember that Paladins are lacking in DPS the most.

[Ayseifn]

What is so excellent about Loosing +8 saves with 40 Cha+ ? I Wont accept this

Just drop some feats and go 12 fighter/6 paladin/2 monk. Not the end of the world.

[Kalevor]

no sir no melee in the world can solo fall of truth on epic elite lol you think its easy ? step in and try i will give ya 2 secs most only monkchers can do that dont try to defend the most broken splash

My point is that you can't argue about a decent change in game mechanics based on only your own concerns because it's not fair. A raid is not made to solo, is made to be beated for a group of players, but sometimes some very skillfull players can do it... that is not the common rule.

/Off-topic

Just like others said before, pally NEEDS MOAR DPS!!!

[pesch1991]

Just drop some feats and go 12 fighter/6 paladin/2 monk. Not the end of the world.

Wow because of a dump change i have to Splash 4 more paladin lvls and loose ranged feats needed for manyshot and shadow veil no Thanks

[pesch1991]

We understand that you are frustrated because you used a lot of time to get good gear and getting those saves to working level on Epic Elites. I would be frustrated too, being frustrated is understandable. But that is not understandable or acceptable that you say that all who don't like the power of Divine Grace suck. I have friend who plays 16sorc/2pali/2monk and with so little invesments he could acchieve no-fail saves and he is allmost impossible to kill. Thing is different with melees I know. But being rude to others with different opinions is just not very intelligent or logical. I am pretty sure that you know how to play this game, but only thing you have to learn is how to argue intelligently and without being rude and without hurting other peoples feelings. Try to be nice, it is better way to tell your opinions than pressing caps-lock on and start to shouting at other peoples faces.

P.S I like your ideas Severlin

-with all respect Holybird

I am just being honest Here because as you implied i had to spend a Lot time effort and gearing to stand where i am atm and i just cant accept such a change because they really want to destroy melee classes next nerf will be divine might and so on so i will Probably quit after this because I am getting tired of this they nerf us but ingore shiradi caster and monkchers People are just arrogant nowadays and wish others harm in and possible Way and thats what i really hate.

[pesch1991]

My point is that you can't argue about a decent change in game mechanics based on only your own concerns because it's not fair. A raid is not made to solo, is made to be beated for a group of players, but sometimes some very skillfull players can do it... that is not the common rule.

/Off-topic

Just like others said before, pally NEEDS MOAR DPS!!!

Its not a Decent change its a massive nerf to divine Grace

[MeliCat]

I don't know pallys much but I don't much like that everything here taps out with no effort except getting 20 levels of pally - it would be nice if you could continue to build as you get more EDs/gear/etc but here it's just that amount and then you can't get any more. Unless you put specific ED things in (which would tie the player to an ED which is limiting) or specific gear.

[zaphear]

This looks like you guys are giving up on 3.5 and just trying to build Next classes.. way to fail. Get rid of the cheesy d6 damage and give them some nice THF/or Sword and Board options.

[Cetus]

2 + 3*pally level .....

So, with completionist and deliberate gear accommodation, yugoloth potion, and ship buff, I reached a 40 charisma on my character. Thats a +15 modifier to saves for which I invested, planned, and worked for. Right?

You may see where this is going...

Now, you give the same 2 paladin splash a maximum of 8 modifier to saves, for which barely any work needs to be done. You'd need a 26 charisma to max out, while the divine might that you'd also like to take advantage of will call for a much higher investment than just a 26 charisma.

So, joe shmoe with a 26 charisma will have the same save advantage as any committed player reading this who did the extra work and brain power to fit in a generously higher charisma. I see what you're trying to do here, but this is a blatant nerf to the 2 pally splash and doesn't make going more than 2 pally worthwhile - which is the REAL issue here, as far as I see it. All you accomplished is the reduction in pally splash appeal, not in the increase of deeper pally splash appeal.

In the end, all you are doing is simply nerfing the 2 pally splash by 7 to saves for my character, despite the fact that I invested a completionist feat and gear in order to attain it.

But, how do I get my full 40 charisma to count again?

Well, 4 levels of paladin would give me 14 to saves, which still is 1 point less than what I get now. So, I'd need to splash deeper into pally just to get back what I already have now. You think this is a good plan for paladins? You aren't achieving it by nerfing (my build as an example) 7 saves across the board. This is a very shiradi like approach - where investment doesn't really matter much, here just get your measly 26 modifier and anybody can get 8 to saves from 2 pally splash. I'd wager that, as a fulltime melee DPS build, I probably reached the highest charisma value possible without sacrificing damage. How many people are sitting in the low to mid 30's? These folks get something like 8-12 on their saves for their investment - why would you CAP them at 8?

Might as well just roll up a pew pew monk archer, since apparently divine grace is the real problem in this game.