Paladin Changes

[unbongwah]

As a staff build he gets no shield, and as an evasion build he gets only light armor. So the SD tree isn't available to him.

The Imp Sacred Defensive stance bonuses (+PRR/saves/threat) work fine without shields; the Gtr Sacred Defensive stance bonuses don't (CON/STR/HPs), same as Stalwart Defender. For 12 APs you can pick up +25 PRR, +3 to saves, Div Righteousness, +50% threat amp, and 3 extra LoHs.

Other than that, I agree with you.

Censure demons is almost a permanent stun.

In what way? It only procs on vorpal strikes, which last time I checked is 5% of all atks. Are you able to make 20 atks in 3 secs? Plus it has to be born in mind what you're giving up by taking T5 KotC; that means no Keen Edge, no Staff or Knife Spec, etc. It seems a reasonable tradeoff.

[Sebastrd]

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

I don't think either suggestion changes anything. I like the temp HP and light damage, but they're not enough. Damage in endgame is all about base damage and multipliers. Paladins need something to boost their base damage.

The change to Divine Grace is unnecessary. Getting anything over a +8 requires some investment in Charisma, whether through class/race features or specialized gear, so why bother nerfing it? Focus your attention on making Paladin more attractive, not on forcing deeper splashes for its few benefits.

[EllisDee37]

Censure demons is almost a permanent stun. Expanding it to work on "unbelievers" and any evil mobs would be too much, IMO. I do like the idea of additional damage or something like that for evil mobs.

It's really not. Granted I was using THF, so only 56% of the procs of a TWF or 77% of the procs of a SWF, but it wasn't very frequent at all. Nowhere even remotely close to every mob.

I switched it in for testing at 18 and kept it until 21 so that I could give the proc rate a fair test through vale, amrath, xoriat (second madness chain), and the demonweb.

I could be convinced to have it work only on mainhand procs, but it needs to work on all evil mobs (tier 4) and all non-good mobs (tier 5) to be worth spending even 2 AP on it.

[Karadon_II]

I know "change" sends waves of panic through people because more often than not with Turbine it means "nerf", but some of these changes being discussed here [and in the damage mitigation thread] seem offer more benefits than nerfs this time and I'm honestly surprised that Turbine are opening considering some true Paladin love after some dark years.

The discussion seems to be on the right track to fixing what I think is certainly a sub-optimal if not outright 'broken' class. IMHO it was never equal to others in the game and has in fact deteriorated over the years. Don't get me wrong, I love the class, I love playing a Paladin - I've played pretty much the same character since the release in '06 and never changed his concept - but that said in many ways it got harder to progress as the game got older. I think the game can be challenging enough at times for an old warhorse like me without being hamstrung by the developers on top of it.

Thankfully I earned enough player experience and funnelled most of my resources into gear improvements to retain some sembalance of what I feel a Paladin should be. Perhaps now if some of these changes are implimented Paladins will achieve some measure of lost glory, and maybe even more?

I don't too to much by way of number crunching but there are a few things I'd like to address.

1. As mentioned a couple of times already, the famous Divine Might nerf needs to be addressed. It's fine for Heroic levels but when you hit epic and start getting insight bonus STR gear it won't stack. If it can't be a 'sacred bonus' as it was or a 'morale bonus' like many other abilities then create a new kind of bonuse like 'Divine bonus' or 'Devout bonus' or something. There are even little used bonuses like 'Psionic bonus' that could be used. It was incredibly insulting to have a dev say at the time something along the lines of - 'there will be other ways for Paladins to achive more strength'....

2. Paladins do pretty much the same base damage to Neutral and Evil enemies unless you use smite evil, wield certain weapons or make use of the KOTC lines but even that's pretty limited to outsiders and undead. There should be a non-enhancement core class progression that increases DPS vs Evil similar to the 2nd/4th/6th core enhancements of the KOTC line. This may be more paladin-like than the proposed light damage which would seem to be more in the Cleric/FvS's bag. Light damage would damage neutral enemies as well but good alligned inate damage would only do more damage to evil not neutrals. Paladins shouldn't be doing inate damage against vermin or angry puppies.

3. I know this really isn't a fix-the-enhancements thread but I must add in - when I originally heard that Hunter of the Dead and Knight of the Chalice were being "merged" I can't have been the only one thinking that this was great because now Paladin enhancements would affect BOTH Undead AND Evil Outsiders as the two most hated foe types. My heart sank when I realised that this was to be an either/or senario with it only applying to only one or the other. I think there is enough diversity with enemies in the game to have the KOTC affect both Undead and Evil Outsiders we vow to rid such evil in equal measure and should not have to pick one.

4. I know this is a pretty far-fetched idea but I think Paladins should automatically see hidden opponents of evil allignment. Not see through magical invisibility, but just basic hidden enemies like evil Rogues and Ghouls. Hidden vermin and neutral rogues etc. will always evade a Paladin's gaze. However I think if this even could be addressed, I fear it would undo the work done in the past year regarding, sneaking and moving silently etc. so it may be well to leave alone.

If the changes discussed here [or rather in this thread as a whole and some of what I'm saying could be considerd insane] see the light then I'm confident that I will no longer need to retain the fighter levels I've taken in 3rd life for additional DPS and may even return to a pure paladin again! I think whatever the changes, they will do more good than harm this time.

[NaturalHazard]

I don't see people being excited about 3d6 light damage to roll up paladins, all these changes are going to do is make less paladin splashes 2-6 level splashes of paladin. Meh big deal, it will however appease those who have been howling and wailing about divine grace big deal, people will just find other ways to adapt their builds, probably drop paladin levels altogether and try for improved evasion or whatever.

Temp HP......meh depends on the content in epic I guess it will mitigate some of the first hit then will be gone till you use the abilities again and unless you can spam them indefinately quickly I don't see it having that much of a positive effect. Heck the temp hp from cocoon is way better.

[NaturalHazard]

Whatever is decided, a 2 level Pally splash should be better than going Half Elf Pally Dilettante...

Paladin class is free but half elves are not so..............I can see the reasoning there.

[Qhualor]

It's really not. Granted I was using THF, so only 56% of the procs of a TWF or 77% of the procs of a SWF, but it wasn't very frequent at all. Nowhere even remotely close to every mob.

I switched it in for testing at 18 and kept it until 21 so that I could give the proc rate a fair test through vale, amrath, xoriat (second madness chain), and the demonweb.

I could be convinced to have it work only on mainhand procs, but it needs to work on all evil mobs (tier 4) and all non-good mobs (tier 5) to be worth spending even 2 AP on it.

I've done it both TWF and THF. The only real problem I seemed to have was with Hezrous. Cats, devils, Shakawhatchamacallits, Reavers and orthons were almost always stunned. Maybe the di gods were always in my favor.

If its going to be all evil mobs, which does make sense to me, than Censure Demons would need to change from vorpal to something else.

[Qhualor]

In what way? It only procs on vorpal strikes, which last time I checked is 5% of all atks. Are you able to make 20 atks in 3 secs? Plus it has to be born in mind what you're giving up by taking T5 KotC; that means no Keen Edge, no Staff or Knife Spec, etc. It seems a reasonable tradeoff.

I get those vorpal roles a lot. I've kept an entire pack of cats in EGH stunned until I beat them to death before. At level 18, I found it easier to land stuns on elite Orthons than to stun them as a pure monk with +10 stun wraps.

I love KOTC. Its the only prestige I play when I do Paladin past lives so I don't "give up" anything. Especially since Censure Demons works very well for my builds.

[JOTMON]

The only reason it is a toggle is in the specific case you run into something that is healed by light. It should stack with everything.



It is difficult sometimes for us to communicate the larger plan, but picture these changes with plans to have some new trees; Vanguard (a weapon and shield DPS tree) and Shieldbearer (a weapon and shield mitigation tree).

Also, we plan to have the light damage scale with certain types of spell power. We are still working on the details of the spell power scaling.

Sev~

I think doing good damage would work better for paladin vs light damage... a Paladin should be overall more effective against evil oriented mobs and neutral vs neutral mobs and animals.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Hmm...

add at level 14 they glow from their religious fervor enough to allow easy navigation through Rainbow in the Dark. This 'Aura' does d4 per level of damage per tick to all those not of their alignment.

:P

[count_spicoli]

12 fighter 6 monk 2 paladin

16 fvs/2 pally/2 monk pdk with cormyrian knight training swing oath blades and doing light dmg. Cha and con and everything else dump. And even I find the fact that 2 pally gives such a benefit ridiculous. But pally aren't the only ones giving big bonuses for 2 or less levels.

[Qhualor]

Hmm...

add at level 14 they glow from their religious fervor enough to allow easy navigation through Rainbow in the Dark. This 'Aura' does d4 per level of damage per tick to all those not of their alignment.

:P

That would be called Daylight. A 3rd level Paladin spell with a 60 foot radius.

[toapat]

Changes paladins absolutely Need:

Bonus Feats
Charisma Spellcasting
The ability to participate in ranged combat
Good spells, such as Glory of the Martyr
At least one Tank, One Physical DPS, and One Spellcasting PrE tree, with each tree being effective on its own.

As far as these changes are concerned:
Divine Grace: Should be 2+2xPaladin, Also sorcerer gets +1x Sorc
Aura of Light: As has been said, needs to scale off of possitive spell power
Armor of Light: Needs to be just stacking temp HP

[JOTMON]

Greetings,




We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.

it is something needed, will hurt many who invested /2 paladin just for saves but will bring most players back in the same realm.
I would probably drop the paladin splash on most toons if /2paladin only gave +8 to saves. since I would lose more than I gain with that particular splash.

however..... the bar for saves needs to be lowered things like What goes up in Stormhorns requires saves of 70+ which is well out of the range for most current non-paladin splashes builds

[Nadion]

It's good to see the devs are still open to making non trivial (codewise) changes to the game to try and improve struggling classes.

However I think just tacking on a little extra light damage and temp HP isn't really going to it. I also just feels a bit like a messy band aid solution.

The problem with Paladins is that they are melee fighters that give up the bonus feats in exchange for divine abilities that aren't as useful in DDO as in PnP.

I suggest giving Paladins bonus feats at levels 4/8/12/16/20 would be the best way to bring Paladins back up to par.

Paladin bonus feat list would be: Tower Shield, Bastard Sword, Toughness, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Deflection, Empower Heal, Force of Personality, Extra Turning, Improved Turning, Magical Training, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical.

Other tweaks that might help would be:

1. Give +[W] and/or faster regen to Smite Evil
2. Add a combination Smite/Cleave to T5 of KoTC
3. Make Cure Moderate/Serious available one spell level earlier, and add Cure Critical to the Paladins L4 spell list.
4. Have Lay on Hands grant 10 x Paladin Level Temp HP.

[Thumbed_Servant]

Greetings,

...

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

Seems good.

Thought about the Divine Grace change. At maximum paladin level of 20, 2 + (3 x paldin levels) = + 62 total Charisma bonus possible to add to saving throws. To GET a 62 Charisma modifier to add to saves a toon would need a Charisma score of 134. Um, as that is not possible it would seem to me that a better equation would be 2 + (2 x paladin levels). At that, a level 2 paladin first acquiring Divine Grace would benefit from a Charisma score of 22 which would allow a modifier of +6 to be applied to saving throws; at level 20 my formula would give paladins a total possible Charisma modifier of +42 which would need a Charisma score of 94 to be achieved. From a Charisma of 22 at level 2 to a Charisma of 94 at level 20 (and above) I cannot see my formula of 2 + (2 x paladin levels) to be restrictive of almost any paladin. The arithmetic additive at the front of the equation could be adjusted to allow for those few who might acquire very high Charisma scores early on...say 3 or 4 + (2 x paladin levels).

[Qhualor]

Changes paladins absolutely Need:

Bonus Feats
Charisma Spellcasting
The ability to participate in ranged combat
Good spells, such as Glory of the Martyr
At least one Tank, One Physical DPS, and One Spellcasting PrE tree, with each tree being effective on its own.

As far as these changes are concerned:
Divine Grace: Should be 2+2xPaladin, Also sorcerer gets +1x Sorc
Aura of Light: As has been said, needs to scale off of possitive spell power
Armor of Light: Needs to be just stacking temp HP

How does positive spell power benefit BF Paladins?

[Toro12]

O.k.
So paladins now get a couple D6 light damage and some temp HP when they get hit

Vs
Sorc & artis got which is the ability to nuke down whole rooms of mobs with a 6sp maximized , quickened , heightened , empowered 3rd level nuke spell.
Quite literally just about a 1shot kill on normal or hard heroics for 6sp for an entire room of mobs with a minor cool down.
6 spell points so after throwing buffs at the start of the quest at let's say a fair level to have the full 3 ranks of the tier 4 SLAs say vetII start of level 7 leaves a good what 1000sp

And you think some temp hit points and a little head jiggle is supposed to make paladins happy?

How's about you take the smites per rest and throw them out the window? Or not and just leave them there for a good starting batch and give them a 5-12second cool down and a 45-60 second recharge?

How's about changing divine might back to a straight plus to damage and giving paladins the option of going all PDK with Cha to hit and damage with any weapon you can make a holy sword out of? Sure everyone will say but you can get str sooo much higher but then your smites and LoH are even stronger.

How's Bout making holy sword the holy terror it should be with something like that AoE bursting critical like the weapon of light one.

So many things you can do to just improve what paladins have rather than adding new stuff to them. Heck keep smite evil but make it an on hit so it won't get wasted and have it not really require evil only. Make it abborations like monks and or make it any non good. If you aren't with us then your against us so you must be Eeeeeeevvvvviillllll.

--------
Tldr;
Light damage is for pansy sun elfs to twiddle their fingers for in Divine disciple
Paladins are supposed to bust heads for law and order and their gods holy word!

I'm talk'n great vengeance and furious anger , my wallet is the one that says bad mofo on it kinda stuff.

[PsychoBlonde]

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

The Divine Grace change is only really going to hurt sorcerers with paladin levels a LOT (and this is VERY popular). It's not going to affect my 2-paladin splash characters one bit because they only have around a 24-26 cha. The funny thing is that Divine Grace ALONE does not give ACTUAL paladins "good" saves! You have to invest heavily in Cha for that which is EXTREMELY sub-optimal on most paladin builds!

As for the weapons of light . . . eh. An extra 3d6 unscaling not-modified-by-crits-or-spellpower light damage. You could accomplish the same thing by making Holy Sword into a weapon enchant instead of something that creates a crappy weapon. And you'd be rescuing a useless spell from the dustbin at the same time.

How about something like when a paladin smites an enemy that enemy gets a short-lived debuff that makes the paladin's hits all act as threats (must be confirmed)?

The temp HP sounds kind of meh to me, too.

One possibility would be to add more Turn types to paladin. Turn Undead, that's a start. Turn Evil Outsider, that's better. Ending with Turn Evil Creature? Best. It doesn't have to destroy them, just making them cower for a bit would be quite nice.

[Vorthian]

My monkcher might be ok with nerfing Divine Grace to +8 for my splash of two paladin levels, though I would withhold final judgment until I see how effectively I make saves in ee content, which I've built for. I've already decreased my playtime on that toon based on potential nerfs, and have stopped spending cash to improve the character until I know if the investment is worth while or not. That said, Turbine should probably provide +X Lesser Hearts of Wood at a minimum to any multiclass with two or more levels of paladin, but more fairly a +5 heart of wood that allows for changing a players race as well. I'd be curious to learn which builds this will impact the most to least.