In Developement: New Spells and Enhancements for 4.2

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Upon further thought: POWER ATTACK???? Why that particular feat? Why not Martial Weapons or something, or Improved Critical? At lease open it up for those Bards who took a level in Fighter or Ranger and not just Barbarian. That would make more sense to me... Not all Battle Bards are 2-handed weapon weilding Bardbarians, some of us actually like to go sword and board...

My Battle Bard took a level of Fighter, uses Dwarven axes and sheild, has weapon focus slashing so he could get Improved Critical slashing (why is that anyway? it doesn't indicate there is a pre-req for Improved Crit, yet there is???). I have no desire to pick up Power Attack at all! Sillyness...

[Mad_Bombardier]

I would like some real feed back from a dev on these I will find out as soon as I get home.

1)does angelskin stack with adamantine armor?
2)is there any extras on holy sword ie x crit 15-20 crit string

1) Probably not, DR does not stack. (But will replace. ie., DR5 vs evil. DR3 vs. physical)
2) The extras are +5, Holy, Protection from Evil. Weapon should use normal crit range and multiplier of weapon type, with ImpCrit feats applying normally.

[EinarMal]

Upon further thought: POWER CRITICAL???? Why that particular feat? Why not Martial Weapons or something, or Improved Critical? At lease open it up for those Bards who took a level in Fighter or Ranger and not just Barbarian. That would make more sense to me... Not all Battle Bards are 2-handed weapon weilding Bardbarians, some of us actually like to go sword and board...

My Battle Bard took a level of Fighter, uses Dwarven axes and sheild, has weapon focus slashing so he could get Improved Critical slashing (why is that anyway? it doesn't indicate there is a pre-req for Improved Crit, yet there is???). I have no desire to pick up Power Attack at all! Sillyness...

I agree the requirements are way to narrow I have a TWF battle Bard and there is no way I can fit in two extra feats.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Upon further thought: POWER CRITICAL???? Why that particular feat?

Reread, its Power Attack, which is available to all classes; BAB+0, STR 13. I agree that its an over-the-top feat requirement. Weapon Focus and *something* is reasonable because of the lower AP pre-reqs. But, Warchanter as stated clearly favors melee. Maybe it could be WF: AND Power Attack OR Weapon Finesse OR TWF.

But, I would like to see WF: Ranged and Thrown as options with the OR being something ranged related (eg., OR Precise Shot). There needs to be options for DEX based characters in the game. STR and melee, over and over is getting tiresome.

[Kraldor]

Chaos Hammer
Evocation [Chaotic]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash chaotic power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to lawful creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to lawful outsiders) and slows them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the slow effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not slowed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to chaotic creatures, and can only be cast by chaotic or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a lawful caster.

Were the orbs in xorian cipher casting this? I seem to remember a graphic of a large warhammer slamming down with the new chaotic effect

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Reread, its Power Attack, which is available to all classes; BAB+0, STR 13. I agree that its an over-the-top feat requirement. Weapon Focus and *something* is reasonable because of the lower AP pre-reqs. But, Warchanter as stated clearly favors melee.

Fixed.

[MeCrazy]

The Bard enhancements look pretty hard to meet in my opinion. I was looking forward to them but I need to take 3 feats do this do that blah blah. Probably can't take any with my battle bard I don't have the feats to spare.

Spellsinger looks great for CC caster Bards the others seem kind of not worth it.

how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the party

[Dragonhyde]

I love the new enhancement lines but still wish that some decent bard only spells for cc and (oh my) offensive spells would get added.

[EspyLacopa]

*giggles like a school girl, knowing several Sorcs that seem to use that spell exclusively* I needed the laugh.

But seriously, besides low level arcanes, yeah, I'm in agreement. It is good for guarantied hits. Assuming the data lag doesn't cause a miss cast.

Get with the times. Force Missiles is better than Magic Missile in nearly every way.

FM: 48 damage, 25 sp, 2.75 cooldown (1.92 DPSp, 17.45 DPS)
MM: 22.5 damage, 10 sp, 2 cooldown (2.25 DPSp, 11.25 DPS)

Toss in the new cooldowns:

FM: 48 damage, 25 sp, 2.25 cooldown (1.92 DPSp, 21.33 DPS)
MM: 22.5 damage, 10 sp, 1.5 cooldown (2.25 DPSp, 15 DPS)

[EinarMal]

how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the party

I simply don't have the spare feats not saying I wouldn't like it. Two feats are a lot and I had neither in my build.

[MeCrazy]

Most of these look good. However, I don't agree with requiring the Song Magic or Lyric enhancements. These only benefit a small number of bard spells, and many bards don't have any of them, even if they are focused on spellcasting. Total cost to unlock: 10 Action points + 1 feat.

For Virtuoso, one of the primary benefits was the ability to unlock Music of the Dead at an earlier level. However, you made the prerequisites for Virtuoso either two feats that are virtually never used(SF: Perform or Negotiator), or Extra Song IV, which you can't take until much later. Essentially, anyone who wants to take this at level 6 will likely have to take a feat to qualify, then swap it out once the get Extra Song IV. Total cost to unlock: Either 9 AP + 1 Feat, or 14 Action Points.

The Warchanter looks better, but the prerequisites for it are a bit steep also. All of the other new enhancements only require one feat, while Warchanter requires two. Total cost to unlock: 6 Action Points + 2 Feats.

I'll likely be taking the Spellsinger enhancement, but I'm going to have to add in several enhancements that do nothing for me in order to get access to it, simply because I don't have Cure spells and my only sonic spell does a d8 damage.

however a lot of bards do have cure spells, my current bard has all these pre-reqs already....i would argue most bards can heal

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the party

Forcing a Bard to take Power Attack as a feat if we aren't already designed that way is what makes it not worth it. The BAB already suffers for a Battle Bard, the songs make up for that loss by a couple of points (and a DP clickie helps for about 40 seconds). But having Power Attack on just turns a buffed Battle Bard into a non-buffed fighter, ya-frickin-hoo. So turn it off you say? Sure, I'll turn it off and keep it off so I can kill stuff. All that does is turn it into a wasted feat so I can get another +1 to attack and +2 to damage and DR for the party? Nope, not worth a wasted feat, imho. Too bad too, I was looking forward to it

[Freeman]

how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the party

Provided you have the two feats that it requires, which most pure bards don't. Some bard/barbs will definitely like this one though, but I think have two feats as pre-reqs is a bit much. If anything, bump up the Inspired Attack and Damage requirements. Still, all three of the enhancement lines seem determined to force bards to take things they wouldn't normally take. The rogue lines were the same, but in those cases, it usually only required spending a few action points. The problem I have with these is that they all require a large investment, either in action points or feats, that aren't directly related to the benefits of the new enhancement. Adding a requirement to take Bard: Perform II to Virtuoso is just a complete waste of action points, while the Feat choices are either useless or ridiculous.(Negotiator or Skill Focus: Perform? Two great choices for feats there...)

[Mad_Bombardier]

how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the party

I think too many people got caught up with spending 3 dinky APs on Inspired Bravery II. (It's the feat requirements that concerns me). The costs are steep and too geared to melee only, but I would love to have a Warchanter in the party.

[Freeman]

however a lot of bards do have cure spells, my current bard has all these pre-reqs already....i would argue most bards can heal

The problem I have is that this enhancement will determine what spells I carry. Instead of picking your enhancements based on your spell list, bards will be forced to either take spells that the enhancements will work with or carry useless enhancements. If they wanted to add something that benefits bards who are focused on spellcasting, why set it so narrowly that only bards with certain spells will be able to take full advantage of it?

[Zenako]

Have you ever looked closely at many of the prereqs for a lot of Prestige Classes. They are riffe with unrelated or suboptimal demands. Not saying that the choices of D&D justify DDO but that there is a relationship and precedent in the paper game.

Frankly I think most bards who are drawn heavily to one of those lines will generally have most if not all of the requirements already in place (and any requirements based on enhancements are trivial to achieve with more or less at will revisions available for a $$$ cost IIRC).

I think that some of the powers granted by those lines might actually get toned down before release. Spellsinger for one. The Bard and his entire Party get huge benefits from this enhancement, on the order of multiple free feats for everyone. Youzaaa...

[LordDamax]

Ok too many posts in 6 pages to reply to.

First, for the OMG Nightsield stops force missiles??? Overpowered!!

Shield does that. Shield has ALWAYS done that. It's also available on a wand in the tent that anyone with a UMD of 1 or better can use (ok, not well, but they can use it).

Next, warchanters and ranged... Um... Warchanters seem to be based off the norse war chaters/skalds/battle-poets... I believe its a ripoff of a prestige class of the same name.

Just because something is put in the game doesnt mean everyone should benefit from it equally. Norse Skalds were barbarians that chanted, sung battle hymns, and composed epic battle poetry. They didnt throw daggers and fight with a bow.

I think the prereqs, while steep, fit perfectly with the class. It grants an extra rage per day, of COURSE it's meant for bard/barbarian multiclasses. And what barbarian in their right mind doesnt wield a 2 handed weapon, let alone DOES use a bow?

Speaking of which, to the person who knows the sorc who casts MM exclusively... um... educate him. The damage output for time, and for damage per mana spent is ABYSSMAL. Its only benefit is it's almost universally unstoppable.


As for all the 'useless' prereqs... go check out prestige classes. They have them all the time. One of the prereqs for Blackguard, the Anti-paladin, the class that rewards fallen paladins for converting to evil is 5 ranks in Tumble. Sure, a rogue could be a blackguard, but there are massive rewards for fallen paladins. And it REQUIRES 5 ranks in Tumble. What paladin in their right mind puts points in tumble?

Of course enhancements THIS powerful have stupid prereqs.... Spellsinger gibving the entire PARTY -10% on mana use AND +1 to all save DCs? Thats insane. +1 to hit and +2 to damage AND DR 5 to EVERYONE in your group? Of course warchanter prereqs are sick.

Virtuoso isnt as bad, but it's still extremely powerful. A fascinate that debuffs everything with NO SAVE? Thats powerful as well.

I dunno I see a lot of whining and not a lot of yay. I started rolling a bardbarian a few weeks ago he just hit 14. i'm respecing out a feat and am SALIVATING over warchanter.

[Freeman]

Have you ever looked closely at many of the prereqs for a lot of Prestige Classes. They are riffe with unrelated or suboptimal demands. Not saying that the choices of D&D justify DDO but that there is a relationship and precedent in the paper game.

Frankly I think most bards who are drawn heavily to one of those lines will generally have most if not all of the requirements already in place (and any requirements based on enhancements are trivial to achieve with more or less at will revisions available for a $$$ cost IIRC).

I think that some of the powers granted by those lines might actually get toned down before release. Spellsinger for one. The Bard and his entire Party get huge benefits from this enhancement, on the order of multiple free feats for everyone. Youzaaa...

Sub-Optimal I can deal with. Completely useless is the biggest issue I have.(Perform requirements for Virtuoso) I also dislike that the Spellsinger enhancement will force me to alter my spell list if I don't want to be carrying useless enhancements.

The enhancement changes might be trivial to achieve, but the cost is not trivial at all. For every enhancement I have to take to gain access to one of these, I have to give up something else. On Freeman, I will have to give up at least nine action points that I currently spend elsewhere.(That includes the cost to actually purchase the new enhancement) For the benefits, I will most likely do that, but don't think it is simply a money issue.

Spellsinger is extremely powerful. However, I don't think it should be toned down. Fighters already received a huge bonus from having a bard in the party. All of the bard enhancements were geared towards making physical combat more powerful. Mages drew little to no direct benefit from a bard. This will help balance the scales for them for a change.

[Gimpster]

Reread, its Power Attack, which is available to all classes; BAB+0, STR 13. I agree that its an over-the-top feat requirement. Weapon Focus and *something* is reasonable because of the lower AP pre-reqs.

Here's a condensed chart of the requirements for the new bard options:

Spellsinger
Enh: Energy 2, Concen 2, Magic 2, Lyric 1
Feat: One of Mag Training, MT, SF Enchant, Empower, Heighten, Max, Extend
Total to qualify: 4 enhancements + 1 feat

Virtuoso
Enh: Song 2, Perform 2, Lingering 1, Charisma 1
Feat: SF Perform OR Negotiator OR Enhance Song 4
Total to qualify: 4 enhancements + 1 feat, or 5 enhancements

Warchanter
Enh: Attack 1, Damage 1, Bravery 2
Feat: PA AND (WF Slash or WF Pierce or WF Bludgeon)
Total to qualify: 3 enhancement + 2 feats

Summarizing, two of the three are 4 enh + 1 feat, while warchanter is 3 enh + 2 feats. DDO characters have much more freedom in their AP enhancements than with feats, so Warchanter is a much more expensive option than the other two. However, it also gives probably the biggest benefit, so maybe that is OK. My instinctive suggestion, though, is that Warchanter be changed to require only one feat, which can be PA or WF, and to have the enhancement requirements increased slightly.

However, let's look closer at the costs for these things, because a requirement that a bard is already likely to have trained is hardly really a cost at all.

Spellsinger
Nearly all bards have Extend Spell and Energy 2, and many bards have Song Magic 1 or 2. They probably do not have Skill Concentration 2 or Lyric 1. So effectively you have to "waste" 2 enhancements to qualify. I will reiterate: Spellsinger is a powerful effect, but since virtually every bard already has Extend spell, it essentially has no cost in feats.

Virtuoso
Nearly all bards have Extra 2, Lingering 1, and Charisma 1. They do not have Perform 2, SF Perform, or Negotiator. And they may or may not have Extra 4. Effectively you must waste one feat on Negotiator (which gives you Haggle, so it's not totally useless) and increase Extra Song up to 4, which is not useless either. So the cost is 1 wasted feat or 1 partially wasted enhancement, and another totally wasted enhancement. Realistically, bards will be more willing to blow APs on more songs than a feat on +2 haggle. Furthermore, the benefit from Virtuoso is quite low compared to the other two options.

Warchanter
All bards have Attack 1 and Damage 1. But fairly few have Bravery 2, Power Attack, or Weapon Focus. You'd have to spend two feats on things which moderately improve your combat power (not useless), and 3 APs for enhancements to fear saves (which is useless, because a bard generally gives everyone fear immunity via Greater Heroism). However, for the 2 feats and 3 extra APs you can give allies an extra +1 attack and +2 damage, which is very nice.

Summary
Virtuoso: real cost 2 enhancement + 0 feats
Spellsinger: real cost 2 enhancements + 0 feats
Warchanter: real cost 1 enhancement + 2 feats

[Freeman]

As for all the 'useless' prereqs... go check out prestige classes. They have them all the time. One of the prereqs for Blackguard, the Anti-paladin, the class that rewards fallen paladins for converting to evil is 5 ranks in Tumble. Sure, a rogue could be a blackguard, but there are massive rewards for fallen paladins. And it REQUIRES 5 ranks in Tumble. What paladin in their right mind puts points in tumble?

Perhaps you don't quite understand what I mean by useless. A blackguard with 5 ranks in Tumble can tumble better. A bard with Bard: Perform I and II can... do absolutely nothing any differently than a bard without them. There is absolutely no benefit from taking this enhancement. None. Zero. The action points are completely wasted. If they want to make them have a purpose, then make Fascinate work the way it should. Until then, don't force people to take things simply to give them a purpose.