In Developement: New Spells and Enhancements for 4.2

[EinarMal]

Is there any way to broaden the feat requirements for the Warchanter?

Since it seems to be catering to the Bardbarian, why not make the feat requirements: Power Atack AND (WF OR THF)

How about any two combat feats from the fighter bonus list to open it up for more builds?

[Freeman]

Now when taken by itself, yes it is worthless

This is the whole point. The only reason for the existence of the enhancement line is to gain access to another. No other feat, enhancement, or ability offers zero benefit to the character, regardless of build, class, or level. I don't think it should be worthless. Either make it count for something(Like Fascinate), or don't require it. There is no equivalent requirement anywhere else in the game.

[wiglin]

This is the whole point. The only reason for the existence of the enhancement line is to gain access to another. No other feat, enhancement, or ability offers zero benefit to the character, regardless of build, class, or level. I don't think it should be worthless. Either make it count for something(Like Fascinate), or don't require it. There is no equivalent requirement anywhere else in the game.

Although I see your point, I do not agree. I have no problem having a pre-req that gives you nothing in return other then the option to take something else.

Perform is a pre-reg for our songs. By taking skill focus: perform you can free up skill points when you level and put them somewhere else. Thus SF: Perform would not be worthless, it not only opens up some new enhancements, but it frees up skill points to be used in other places.

This may not be useful to you, but to say it is worthless is opinion.

[EspyLacopa]

Ooooh. Spoiler for the Black Abbot. Combine that with the Stormreaver trophy room effect, and you could have quite the swarm of player-spawned wraiths to deal with.

Wait. . .you mean a raid where Dying might mean more than just a bit of XP Debt and inconvenience?

[Conejo]

Perform is a pre-reg for our songs. By taking skill focus: perform you can free up skill points when you level and put them somewhere else. Thus SF: Perform would not be worthless, it not only opens up some new enhancements, but it frees up skill points to be used in other places.

This may not be useful to you, but to say it is worthless is opinion.

incorrect. Bardsong abilities require RANKS in perform, not a modifier of it.

[Gimpster]

Either make it count for something(Like Fascinate), or don't require it. There is no equivalent requirement anywhere else in the game.

Actually there is. It's already been mentioned:
Perform ranks have no purpose but to qualify you for specific bardsongs.
Skill- Perform 2 has no purpose but to qualify you for Virtuoso.

Regardless, you are arguing about something that is, at best, semantics. If they removed the Perform 2 requirement and just added the equivalent cost in APs to Virtuoso, there would be no practical effect at all.

[Freeman]

Although I see your point, I do not agree. I have no problem having a pre-req that gives you nothing in return other then the option to take something else.

Perform is a pre-reg for our songs. By taking skill focus: perform you can free up skill points when you level and put them somewhere else. Thus SF: Perform would not be worthless, it not only opens up some new enhancements, but it frees up skill points to be used in other places.

This may not be useful to you, but to say it is worthless is opinion.

No, you are incorrect. Skill Focus perform will NOT meet the prerequisites for your songs. You need the minimum RANKS in the skill, which means to gain the bard songs, you must spend the required number of skill points to reach that level. Skill Focus: Perform does NOTHING to help you in the game whatsoever. You may not mind taking a pre-req that does nothing, but considering that no other class or race has to do that, I don't see why bards alone should have to. If it had some benefit, even if it was something I didn't need, I wouldn't mind it. But as long as it has zero benefit, they shouldn't make it a requirement for something.

[Gimpster]

Wait. . .you mean a raid where Dying might mean more than just a bit of XP Debt and inconvenience?

Considering the significant obstacles to casting Raise Dead during the Reaver's Fate, there already is such a raid.

[Gimpster]

And Hide 5 is MORE useful for a blackguard in fullplate? It's STILL a useless requirement.

Blackguards get Sneak Attack as a class feature, so requiring them to qualify by training Hide is not silly, even if it's not something truly useful to a warrior. It's a cost of taking the PrC, but it's not flat-out funny like if they had to learn Tumble.

[EspyLacopa]

I'd argue a paladin in full plate with 5 ranks in tumble still has a Tumble of -1.

A paladin with 1 rank of tumble can then attempt Tumble checks in PnP, even if the resulting skill check is a negative.

Same basic thing holds true here, only you can't actually successfully tumble unless you both have at least 1 rank in tumble and a positive skill.

1 rank + 5item +1 dex - 5 Full Plate - 1 Heavy Shield: +1 Tumble. Hey, he can tumble around! He gets benefit!

[Raelg14]

Well make that 2... since I don't even have one.

OK maybe I am missing something here but why the hate for this Holy Sword? OK so you have to buy a weapon to take into a dungeon, and perhaps I am wrong but the cost of the weapon would be less than repairing a weapon of the type, plus according to http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm , Turbine is giving us a better version of the spell, the Cold Iron part. Now if the weapon can be passed that would be awesome, I doubt that is the case but it would be cool.

[Freeman]

Actually there is. It's already been mentioned:
Perform ranks have no purpose but to qualify you for specific bardsongs.
Skill- Perform 2 has no purpose but to qualify you for Virtuoso.

Regardless, you are arguing about something that is, at best, semantics. If they removed the Perform 2 requirement and just added the equivalent cost in APs to Virtuoso, there would be no practical effect at all.

The perform skill requirement for bard songs is part of the core rules, so I expected that to be there. The perform enhancement requirements are arbitrary and have no ruleset to back them up. I don't think the Perform enhancements and skill focus feat should even be available in the game until they serve some purpose. Instead of giving them a purpose, they are trying to give people a reason to take them. Regardless of whether or not you have a reason to take them, the enhancements have no purpose in and of themselves. You can say that they aren't worthless because they allow you to get something better later, but that doesn't give them any intrinsic value of their own.

[Gimpster]

The perform skill requirement for bard songs is part of the core rules, so I expected that to be there. The perform enhancement requirements are arbitrary and have no ruleset to back them up.

No, there is a ruleset to back them up. It's at the top of this thread.

All game rules are arbitrary at their base: they are what the game designer chooses, nothing more. There is no such thing as a "Virtuoso enhancement" in the PnP rules, so of course the PnP rules are silent as to whether or not a "Perform enhancement" should be required to qualify for it.

[Conejo]

OK maybe I am missing something here but why the hate for this Holy Sword?

Turbine is giving us a better version of the spell.

you're missing something: Turbine is giving us a bastardized version of the spell.

it would be incorrect to call it "lazy coding" but that's what it comes off as. instead of giving us Holy Sword, the d20 SRD spell.
we get holy sword, the Paladin equivalent to Flame Arrow, which poo-poos on our hopes and dreams of spells that actually enhance items (not to mention all Artificer infusions) like Keen Edge, or Magic Weapon.

[wiglin]

No, you are incorrect. Skill Focus perform will NOT meet the prerequisites for your songs. You need the minimum RANKS in the skill, which means to gain the bard songs, you must spend the required number of skill points to reach that level. Skill Focus: Perform does NOTHING to help you in the game whatsoever. You may not mind taking a pre-req that does nothing, but considering that no other class or race has to do that, I don't see why bards alone should have to. If it had some benefit, even if it was something I didn't need, I wouldn't mind it. But as long as it has zero benefit, they shouldn't make it a requirement for something.

I stand corrected.

Although I still don't have a problem with SF:Perform having no value other than opening up more enhancements. I would much rather have a feat that is a pre-req that offers no other value than it being a pre-req than for the devs to come along and say let's make perform be the main ingredient to the DC of a bard song. Then we would have to lug around more equipment and have more things to swap out...bla, but hey at least you would get your wish and SF: Perform would be valuable.

I would much rather have perform stay the way it is, and SF:Perform's only benefit is that it opens up new enhancements.

[Conejo]

I stand corrected.

Although I still don't have a problem with SF:Perform having no value other than opening up more enhancements.

your Perform Modifier is the DC the monsters have to make Vs Fascinate. so that +3 can help, yes.

[Gimpster]

your Perform Modifier is the DC the monsters have to make Vs Fascinate. so that +3 can help, yes.

Incorrect. Fascinate in DDO has no DC at all. There's nothing to modify: you sing, they get mezzed. No save, no SR, no nothing.

[dormetheus]

How about any two combat feats from the fighter bonus list to open it up for more builds?

That sounds fair. It still requires two feats, but opens it up for twf and sns. I just think the weapon focus requirement is lame, considering that bards and barbarians are feat starved to begin with, and weapon focus is one of the lamest feats for a (feat starved) combat build.

[Freeman]

No, there is a ruleset to back them up. It's at the top of this thread.

All game rules are arbitrary at their base: they are what the game designer chooses, nothing more. There is no such thing as a "Virtuoso enhancement" in the PnP rules, so of course the PnP rules are silent as to whether or not a "Perform enhancement" should be required to qualify for it.

None of this would be an issue if Perform worked correctly with a bard's Fascinate. Unfortunately, it doesn't. So using the earlier example of the Perform ranks being a prereq for the songs is basically using one mistake to justify making another similar mistake. I'm sure it is a coding issue that made them implement Fascinate the way it currently is. I don't expect them to fix it anytime soon. I honestly don't even expect these new bard enhancements to work correctly out of the gate, given the track record bards have had. And yes, they can make arbitrary decisions like making useless enhancements and feats requirements for better ones. However, that does not mean I have to agree with those arbitrary decisions. No other enhancement does not benefit the character in some way, no matter how tiny. Only bards are stuck with an enhancement line that has no purpose in the game. Now they decided, instead of making that enhancement line actually do anything, they'll just make it a prerequisite to a cool enhancement, to try to force people to take it. That only punishes the players who want the cool enhancement by forcing them to spend action points for something that does absolutely nothing.

For the record, I have no plans on taking the Virtuoso enhancement because I plan on taking the Spellsinger one. I am not arguing for this change on my behalf. I also am not advocating removing the requirement entirely. If they were to say that they placed it there because they plan on making Fascinate work correctly in this update or the next module, I would be very happy. However, if they don't plan on making this change anytime soon, then I don't see how they can justify making the perform enhancement a prerequisite.(And because they can is not a justification) If they aren't planning on changing Fascinate, then replace the perform requirement with the Bard Diplomacy enhancement instead. At least that would give some benefit. Otherwise, any bard that takes Virtuoso will basically be using three less action points than any other character in the game.(An action point that gives no benefit is the same as an action point you don't have)

[Gimpster]

None of this would be an issue if Perform worked correctly with a bard's Fascinate.

It's not an issue at all. You are polluting a thread that could potentially touch on important issues relating to the requirements for Warchanter and Spellsinger with a huge amount of text on an absolutely trivial aspect of the Virtuoso enhancement, which itself is barely more than trivial.

Yes, the fact that DDO has no use for Perform skill is a problem. But it's not a new problem, it isn't caused by these new changes, and there's no reason to talk about it here.