In Developement: New Spells and Enhancements for 4.2

[Gimpster]

One of the prereqs for Blackguard, the Anti-paladin, the class that rewards fallen paladins for converting to evil is 5 ranks in Tumble. Sure, a rogue could be a blackguard, but there are massive rewards for fallen paladins. And it REQUIRES 5 ranks in Tumble. What paladin in their right mind puts points in tumble?

Haha. That would be hilarious if it were true.

But it's not. The requirements for Blackguard are Hide 5, Religion 2, Cleave, Improved Sunder, and the obligatory peaceful contact with an evil outsider.

[Gimpster]

Perhaps you don't quite understand what I mean by useless. A blackguard with 5 ranks in Tumble can tumble better. A bard with Bard: Perform I and II can... do absolutely nothing any differently than a bard without them. There is absolutely no benefit from taking this enhancement. None. Zero.

Does it increase the power of your Song of Freedom to dispel Symbol of Pain? It might- I haven't really tested.

Until then, don't force people to take things simply to give them a purpose.

That is not necessarily bad. A valid game design can have feats or enhancements whose only purpose is to serve as prereqs for other enhancements, indirectly increasing their cost.

[CSFurious]

welcome, to DDO where the game is in a constant state of evolution

i completely agree that your present bard might not be able to be a good "warchanter"

however, i believe that if you create a build, e.g., 10bard/2barbarian/2fighter 32-point human or dwarf, you will see that there is now a good alternative to the drow cc-specialist or the 2-weapon drow-finesse bard builds

you will basically have a "bardbarian" who makes his whole party even better at "war" than the regular bard & can keep himself raged, hasted & blurred/displaced, deal damage as an off-tank, & can also heal himself all at the same time

actually, if you have a "warchanter" & a "spellsinger" in the same party, that party IMO will be unstoppable

it sounds pretty awesome to me & i cannot wait until July when i can roll one up

Forcing a Bard to take Power Attack as a feat if we aren't already designed that way is what makes it not worth it. The BAB already suffers for a Battle Bard, the songs make up for that loss by a couple of points (and a DP clickie helps for about 40 seconds). But having Power Attack on just turns a buffed Battle Bard into a non-buffed fighter, ya-frickin-hoo. So turn it off you say? Sure, I'll turn it off and keep it off so I can kill stuff. All that does is turn it into a wasted feat so I can get another +1 to attack and +2 to damage and DR for the party? Nope, not worth a wasted feat, imho. Too bad too, I was looking forward to it

[Freeman]

Virtuoso
Nearly all bards have Extra 2, Lingering 1, and Charisma 1. They do not have Perform 2, SF Perform, or Negotiator. And they may or may not have Extra 4. Effectively you must waste one feat on Negotiator (which gives you Haggle, so it's not totally useless) and increase Extra Song up to 4, which is not useless either. So the cost is 1 wasted feat and 1 partially wasted enhancement. Furthermore, the benefit from Virtuoso is quite low compared to the other two options.

The feat will only be wasted until the bard can access Extra Song IV. At that point, it can be swapped out for something more useful, at least. And for a bard that already has Extra Song IV, there wouldn't be any feat cost. However, as you said, the benefits aren't nearly as great for this line.

[Freeman]

Does it increase the power of your Song of Freedom to dispel Symbol of Pain? It might- I haven't really tested.


That is not necessarily bad. A valid game design can have feats or enhancements whose only purpose is to serve as prereqs for other enhancements, indirectly increasing their cost.

No. Currently, the only purpose of perform is to gain access to new bard songs. For that purpose, the only thing that counts is the number of ranks in the skill. Enhancements, feats, or items that boost your perform have absolutely no use in the game currently. Yes, that is bad. I could understand a minor benefit leading to a much greater one. If Fascinate worked correctly, I wouldn't have an issue with this. However, currently it doesn't. Until it does, anything that adds to perform is useless. Making it a requirement for something else means you are forcing people to waste action points or feats for something that has no purpose. Either remove the requirement or give it a purpose.

[Coldin]

Perform does increase the DC of a Suggestion song, I'm pretty sure.

Perform should be changed to affect the save DC on fascinate as well, and also allow you to play music for money.Type /perform, and start playing a continous loop of music, and earn 1 cp * Perform per 5 minutes or something.

[Freeman]

Perform does increase the DC of a Suggestion song, I'm pretty sure.

Perform should be changed to affect the save DC on fascinate as well, and also allow you to play music for money.Type /perform, and start playing a continous loop of music, and earn 1 cp * Perform per 5 minutes or something.

Suggestion DC is 10 + 1/2 Bard level + Charisma modifier.

How many times do I have to say it, people? Perform is ONLY used to unlock bard songs. Enhancements, feats, and items that add to it have absolutely no use in the game currently.

[Maldini]

Seems a little underwhelming, but the Nightshield will be useful for Battle Clerics I guess. Beats out a lot of the other level 1 spells anyway.

And the rest of us still have to run around with a million shield clickies

[Gimpster]

Enhancements, feats, and items that add to it have absolutely no use in the game currently.

Technically, according to this announcement, the Skill Perform 2 enhancement will have at least one use in the game: it qualifies you for Virtuoso.

You might not agree that it's appropriate for an enhancement to do nothing but be a prereq, however it's not 100% useless.

After all, Fighter level 3 is worse than Barb level 1 in every way. But Fighter 3 isn't useless, because it qualifies you to take Fighter 4 and get bonus feats. Or look at the Mobility feat in DDO: it virtually has no use except to qualify you for Spring Attack.

[Coldin]

Suggestion DC is 10 + 1/2 Bard level + Charisma modifier.

How many times do I have to say it, people? Perform is ONLY used to unlock bard songs. Enhancements, feats, and items that add to it have absolutely no use in the game currently.

It is? Guess I can just put that perform +10 ring in the bank then.

In that case then, please, please, please, give perform some use.

For example

Countersong (Su)

A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to counter magical effects that depend on sound (but not spells that simply have verbal components). Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard’s Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the bard’s Perform check result for the save. Countersong has no effect against effects that don’t allow saves. The bard may keep up the countersong for 10 rounds.

Fascinate (Sp)

A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability.
To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result.
Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.

[Drider]

Judging from many of the complaints, I must be the only player in the game that doesn't have a dozen or so +5 Holy Cold Iron weapons sitting in the bank on each of my characters.

Well make that 2... since I don't even have one.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

One other thing I’d like to point out, with each of these lines the comment reads:

…ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to :

1. Spellsinger: grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC’s and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.
2. Virtuoso: to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a –2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken (in other words, a super-duper fascinate clickie!)
3. Warchanter: grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-.

So, it appears to me that say you have 18 Bard songs, for two of the above lines (spellsinger and Warchanter) you would have to sing 3 bard songs at the initial buffing stage rather than 2. You’d sing IC, IG and the super buff as indicated above. Therefore, you’ll be going through a lot more of your bard songs in a quest than you do right now. If your songs last 6 minutes, currently you have 56 minutes until you need a shrine (assuming you aren’t fascinating anything). With these lines, you’ll have 36 minutes before you need to get those songs back.

Not really a bad thing, I find both of my Bards have plenty of songs except in certain quests. It also makes sense that the Virtuoso gets extra songs as part of their line because they will be using their super-duper song to fascinate with as opposed to using the regular fascinate clickie…

Make sense?

[Gimpster]

If your songs last 6 minutes, currently you have 56 minutes until you need a shrine (assuming you aren’t fascinating anything). With these lines, you’ll have 36 minutes before you need to get those songs back.

We can't really assume that these new songs have the same 6 minute durations as existing bard songs.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

We can't really assume that these new songs have the same 6 minute durations as existing bard songs.

I'm going to assume that is the case. The Lingering Song line applies to all Bard songs, so I would bet a vorpal it would apply to these as well...

[wiglin]

I like the new enhancements. I will take warchanter on my mellee bard, and I will take spellsinger on my soon to be 32-point caster bard.

Good Job Turbine.

I do not mind the steep requirements. If you don't think they're worth the requirements then don't get them. It is a trade off. Everything in this game doesn't have to be about being uber.

Its funny how you have people complaining about the +1 weekends and everyone having uber loot making the game too easy and bla bla bla.

Then you have others complaining about enhancements, that taking feats or other enhancements are worthless, and they don't want to gimp their characters just to get a new enhancement.

Coming from NWN 1 I was let down big time when I played this game in beta. I had high hopes like everyone else. I learned to just enjoy the game for what it is. If at any point it isn't fun, just move on to a new game.

[Freeman]

Technically, according to this announcement, the Skill Perform 2 enhancement will have at least one use in the game: it qualifies you for Virtuoso.

You might not agree that it's appropriate for an enhancement to do nothing but be a prereq, however it's not 100% useless.

After all, Fighter level 3 is worse than Barb level 1 in every way. But Fighter 3 isn't useless, because it qualifies you to take Fighter 4 and get bonus feats. Or look at the Mobility feat in DDO: it virtually has no use except to qualify you for Spring Attack.

Mobility gives you an AC bonus while tumbling. Fighter level 3 gives you +1 BAB, 10 hp, and +1 to Reflex and Will saves. Perform enhancements and feats give you absolutely nothing. Zero. I said earlier I wouldn't mind sub-optimal requirements. But requirements that exist solely to be requirements are another thing entirely.

[wiglin]

Perform enhancements and feats open up the opportunity to expand your bard into new realms with the new enhancements, so I would hardly say they are worthless.

[JayDubya]

Spawn Screen
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: One Ally/level
Duration: 1 minute/level

Protects you and your allies from rising as spawns of common undead after death. Certain very rare, exceptionally powerful creatures (with purple names) may be able to bypass this ward.

Ooooh. Spoiler for the Black Abbot. Combine that with the Stormreaver trophy room effect, and you could have quite the swarm of player-spawned wraiths to deal with.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Next, warchanters and ranged... Um... Warchanters seem to be based off the norse war chaters/skalds/battle-poets... I believe its a ripoff of a prestige class of the same name.

Just because something is put in the game doesnt mean everyone should benefit from it equally. Norse Skalds were barbarians that chanted, sung battle hymns, and composed epic battle poetry. They didnt throw daggers and fight with a bow.

I think the prereqs, while steep, fit perfectly with the class. It grants an extra rage per day, of COURSE it's meant for bard/barbarian multiclasses. And what barbarian in their right mind doesnt wield a 2 handed weapon, let alone DOES use a bow?

My point was that this is yet another melee enhancement. Maybe my Dwarven Skald heaves axes to cleave his enemies's skulls. Is it conventional? No. But it's heroic and mighty, too. Ranged and thrown has been overlooked and I don't agree with taking that direction with the game. There's more to D&D combat than STR and melee.

[EinarMal]

My point was that this is yet another melee enhancement. Maybe my Dwarven Skald heaves axes to cleave his enemies's skulls. Is it conventional? No. But it's heroic and mighty, too. Ranged and thrown has been overlooked and I don't agree with taking that direction with the game. There's more to D&D combat than STR and melee.

I agree 100%, what about TWF battle Bards I can't spare the feats for warchanter why aren't they on the list of possible prereqs? If they don't want me to be a warchanter how about a dervishchanter or some other options for the rest of us.