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  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookydodger View Post
    Granted. But really, this weapon only replaces at most, what, 2 bane weapons? Lawful evil outsider and Chaotic evil outsider (or evil outsider?)?
    The vast majority of creatures in the game are evil, and thus are affected by holy. The only ones that aren't (that I can think of off the top of my head) are Animals, Vermin, Elementals, Oozes, Constructs and some Aurum members.

    Pretty much all Orcs, Goblinoids, Reptilians, Giants, Undead, Elves (Drow), Dwarves (Duergar, and with the exception the aforementioned Aurum Members), Aberrations, Dragons, Monstrous Humanoids, and Magical Beasts (though a few of these might be neutral too) are evil.

    So, in essence, Holy affects half, if not more, of the things in the game, whereas a Bane weapon will only affect a small portion of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookydodger View Post
    I personally like this MUCH better.

    • First, you can change these. I doubt we'll have any real way to respec our level choices, including prestige class choices

    • Second, now you can mix-and-match more. You won't be locked into one set of benefits, as much.

    • Third, easier development. It's much easier to implement these little nuggets of Prestige Classes than it is to develop a whole class, put in all the game changes (new icons, new trainers, new web entries, etc etc), and balance it with existing classes as a whole.
    I dislike them, partly for the very reasons you give and partly because I disagree with your reasons.

    1. "Prestige Classes" should be choices as important as taking a level in anything else. You shouldn't be able to just switch from one to another on a whim. The enhancement version of the system essentially lets you be an assassin one day and a thief-acrobat the next. This is out of keeping with the way the prestige class system is designed to work.

    2. You can mix-and-match less. In the real prestige class system you can take however many levels of however many prestige classes you want. If you want to be half one thing and half another you can do that with all the same benefits and penalties that come with regular multiclassing. The enhancement system prevents you from doing this by limiting you to one "prestige class" at a time.

    3. Regardless, prestige classes are a large part of D&D 3.5 and ought to be given the development time they deserve. Enhancements, on the other hand, are something Turbine made up out of whole cloth with more than their fair share of development time (including an entire update devoted to fixing them) and have actually done much of what you worry the prestige system would do (create drastic imbalances between various races and classes).
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  2. #302
    Community Member gpk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticTheurge View Post
    The vast majority of creatures in the game are evil, and thus are affected by holy. The only ones that aren't (that I can think of off the top of my head) are Animals, Vermin, Elementals, Oozes, Constructs and some Aurum members.

    Pretty much all Orcs, Goblinoids, Reptilians, Giants, Undead, Elves (Drow), Dwarves (Duergar, and with the exception the aforementioned Aurum Members), Aberrations, Dragons, Monstrous Humanoids, and Magical Beasts (though a few of these might be neutral too) are evil.
    So +5 holy (+3 holy of righteousness) easily available in AH or pawn shops, but I'm gonna cast a spell to save on repair costs? A level 6 +1 greater bane is +5+3d6, not +5 +2d6. When ppl "hunt" for greater banes they hunt for +3s/ alignment/elemental greater banes which puts em at least 2d6 more than a +5 holy.



    Ah you got me. I typo'd. Mea culpa and all that. So now fix the sentence to read "2nd level spell" and "8th level paladin" and pretty much everything else stays the same.
    Really how many paladins are going to waste their 1st level 2 slot on DR5 for 6 seconds/lev? Do paladins get 2 level 2 slots at level 8? Nothing changes huh, are the mobs the same you fight at level 4? Is the equipment available to you the same? Context loses out again huh.


    For the record much stuff has deviated from pnp, heck just recently power critical is no longer weapon type specific but gives +4 to crit confirmation to ALL weapon types. Ask yourself why? My hunch is that it was too weak by DDO standards and not worth a feat. That's a clear deviation from pnp isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Because the value of the spell depends on the loot level of the gameworld. Some D&D spells and class abilities essentially function as equipment replacements. In a game world with a level of loot above or below what is recommended in the DMG, you would need to raise or lower the power of those abilities to keep things balanced.

    This is most obvious if you consider monks. In a world with no magic items, monks are the best melee class. But with the over-abundant items in DDO, monks would be inferior (unless Tubine buffs them in other ways, which they surely will). Similarly, the Holy Sword spell substitutes for a magic item of a certain level. In the boosted loot of DDO it is less useful than it was in PnP.
    It seems to be such a difficult concept to grasp and I'm not exactly sure why.

  3. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpk View Post
    Really how many paladins are going to waste their 1st level 2 slot on DR5 for 6 seconds/lev?
    Given that your alternate suggestion is Resist Energy, which is available from anyone else whereas Angel Skin is not, I'd say it's probably a toss up.

    Quote Originally Posted by gpk View Post
    It seems to be such a difficult concept to grasp and I'm not exactly sure why.
    Spells haven't, for the most part, deviated at all.
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  4. #304
    Community Member gpk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticTheurge View Post
    Given that your alternate suggestion is Resist Energy, which is available from anyone else whereas Angel Skin is not, I'd say it's probably a toss up.
    Hmm what level do wizards get stoneskin? Alternate source you say? The next time I should turn down stone skin and say "no thanks please keep your DR10/adamantine for 1 min level at 10 points of dmg absorbed/level, give me an energy resist instead, i'm packing Angelskin.".

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticTheurge View Post
    Spells haven't, for the most part, deviated at all.
    Last i heard there were many enhancements and a deluge of items giving damage boosts and raising the DC of spells, does that not count as "spells deviating" ?

  5. #305
    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpk View Post
    Hmm what level do wizards get stoneskin? Alternate source you say? The next time I should turn down stone skin and say "no thanks please keep your DR10/adamantine for 1 min level at 10 points of dmg absorbed/level, give me an energy resist instead, i'm packing Angelskin.".
    How many times do you get Resist Energy vs. Stoneskin? I PUG almost exclusively and have for more than a year and I'd be generous saying the ratio is 50:1.

    People just don't give out Stoneskin that often.

    Not to mention the fact that Stoneskin is ablative while Angelskin isn't. In the old days when Stoneskin was non-ablative, it was DR 5/Adamantine, almost identical to what Angelskin is now.
    Last edited by GeneralDiomedes; 06-27-2007 at 10:07 PM.
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  6. #306
    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpk View Post
    So +5 holy (+3 holy of righteousness) easily available in AH or pawn shops, but I'm gonna cast a spell to save on repair costs?
    Checking the Thelanis auction house for +5 holy as I type this.

    Greatsword - 0
    Bastard Sword - 0
    Longsword - 0
    Shortsword - 0
    Scimitar - 0
    Warhammer - 0
    Rapier - 0
    Dwarven Axe - 0
    Khopesh - 0
    Maul - 0
    Heavy Pick - 0

    Quote Originally Posted by gpk View Post
    A level 6 +1 greater bane is +5+3d6, not +5 +2d6. When ppl "hunt" for greater banes they hunt for +3s/ alignment/elemental greater banes which puts em at least 2d6 more than a +5 holy.
    xx of Greater xx Bane are nice, to be sure.

    But how many people do you know have 1 for EVERY enemy type? I have pulled two in my time and both were Bastard Swords which unfortunately I couldn't use.
    Last edited by GeneralDiomedes; 06-27-2007 at 10:05 PM.
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  7. #307
    Community Member gpk's Avatar
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    Try checkin the shop and AH more often, often ppl jsut sell em straight to the pawn shops and more often they put a low buyout in the Auction house. It's amazing what you can find in the brokers sometimes even when you're just going to sell some junk weapons (a good reason not to sell to barkeep) or quickly skimming through the AH once in a while.

    Heck just in the last hour I glanced at a couple of categoires as i logged in and casually bid on a +2 holy burst dwarven waraxe of righteousness (Dwarf only). I won it for 46k gp.
    Last edited by gpk; 06-27-2007 at 10:17 PM.

  8. #308
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordDamax View Post
    So, a level 14 bard, casts a heightened spell:
    10 Base + 5 for the heightened spell + 1 for Spellsinger bonus = 16 base DC

    A mage or sorcerer, out of range of the bard's song, or in another group:
    10 Base + 7 for the heightened spell = 17 base DC
    It's like talking to a brick wall.

    I have been trying to keep some things the same throughout this conversation so that things can be compared easily. When a bard heightens a spell to level 6 (which they eventually will be able to do if they have heighten), then it becomes a level 6 spell and will cost accordingly. It could conceivably have the same DC as an unheightened wiz/sorc level 7 spell, but it will cost less for the bard to cast. Once again, so people may actually get it this time, the spell and the DC are the same - but the bard version costs less to cast.

    If the wiz/sorc were to heighten it to level 9 it would cost even more now wouldn't it?
    Last edited by Raithe; 06-27-2007 at 11:14 PM.

  9. #309
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticTheurge View Post
    Now if your big complaint is that some people might consider a X wizards + 1 Bard group more powerful than an X+1 wizards group, I just can't see how that's something anyone really needs to be that worried about.
    You don't? You really don't?

    Having a class *cough* *cough* CLERIC *cough* *cough* be a virtual necessity in any group has been the bane of my entire DDO experience.

  10. #310
    Community Member Nataichal's Avatar
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    I admit that I only read a few pages of this thread, but I was wondering if anyone else noticed this little fact.


    The raid boss for Module 5, Litany of the Dead 3/4 (which I assume is a Lich of some sort) is going to turn all your party members into undead when they die. WEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
    Guinglain 20 Barb Tynnian 20 Cleric Citrinitas 23 Rogue Nataichal 20 Sorcerer Dy Trying 20 Bard/Ranger Altar Boy 8 Paladin Wynds of Change 20 Pal/Fight/Rogue Near Miss 20 Ranger/Rogue Beeten Senseless 24 Monk/Fighter Systematic Elimination 16 Wizard

  11. #311
    Community Member wiglin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    It's like talking to a brick wall.

    I have been trying to keep some things the same throughout this conversation so that things can be compared easily. When a bard heightens a spell to level 6 (which they eventually will be able to do if they have heighten), then it becomes a level 6 spell and will cost accordingly. It could conceivably have the same DC as an unheightened wiz/sorc level 7 spell, but it will cost less for the bard to cast. Once again, so people may actually get it this time, the spell and the DC are the same - but the bard version costs less to cast.

    If the wiz/sorc were to heighten it to level 9 it would cost even more now wouldn't it?

    If the bard will be able to land the spell reliably with it heighten to level 6 then sure. More than likely heightening a spell to level 9 may be what it takes to land CC reliably enough to make it worthwhile. If a bard has to cast that same spell that is cheaper more than once to land it (because it is 3 dc lower), then it is no longer cheaper.

    Giving Bards an ability to raise the dc of the PARTIES spells is a benefit for all.
    Last edited by wiglin; 06-27-2007 at 11:52 PM.
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  12. #312
    Community Member KristovK's Avatar
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    My paladin will use both the Angelskin spell and the Holy Weapon spell, and yes, he's a pure paladin. 14 months and I've yet to pull some of the top 5 weapon types, no vorpal or banisher or disrupters, certainly no +5 holy cold iron weapons, so that one spell will be nice. Also haven't gotten a planar gird or anything else that gives Stoneskin, except my Wiz...but it costs 200+gp per casting, and that adds up, so Angelskin will also be useful, especially since I'd rather wear my mithril armor instead of addy armor.

    Oh..and my Paly will be able to make holy weapons for anyone in the party that needs one, that's pretty nice right there ain't it?

    On Argo, I've spent the last 3 months looking for cold iron holy weapons in the AH and pawn shop, and to date, outside of the 2 +3 holy cold iron I saw in the AH starting in the millions, no luck. Pulled ONE +2 Holy Cold Iron BS and I've hung onto that with my fighter, seems to be a very hard weapon type to find for anything approaching a reasonable price. Of course, there's a lot of people on Argo and a lot of plat sellers are obviously hard at work trying to make plat, so it does make it a bit harder to get reasonable prices on anything...seriously...when I'm seeing +2 Str items, level 5, with a starting price of 150k gold and buyouts of 1 mil gold...please, don't tell me it's easy to buy something like a +5 Holy Cold Iron weapon or a +3 Greater Bane Weapon with align/eley damage on it.

  13. #313
    Community Member KristovK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    It's like talking to a brick wall.

    I have been trying to keep some things the same throughout this conversation so that things can be compared easily. When a bard heightens a spell to level 6 (which they eventually will be able to do if they have heighten), then it becomes a level 6 spell and will cost accordingly. It could conceivably have the same DC as an unheightened wiz/sorc level 7 spell, but it will cost less for the bard to cast. Once again, so people may actually get it this time, the spell and the DC are the same - but the bard version costs less to cast.

    If the wiz/sorc were to heighten it to level 9 it would cost even more now wouldn't it?
    It'll cost the Wiz/Sorc 15 more sp to Heighten the spell to 9th level then the Bard spends to do the same to 6th level..and the DC is 3 higher as well. Add in whatever feats to enhance the DC you want for a Bard, Wiz/Sorc will be doing the same, so the DC will still be 3 higher in the end regardless, for all of 15 more sp then the Bard spends. Now, taking into consideration that the Wiz and Sorc will have quite a bit more sp to use and that their spell will land on the FIRST try instead of..well..probably very rarely for the Bard to get it to land when facing the same mobs at 20th level and lets see who's the more cost effective caster here.....

  14. #314
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KristovK View Post
    It'll cost the Wiz/Sorc 15 more sp to Heighten the spell to 9th level then the Bard spends to do the same to 6th level..and the DC is 3 higher as well. Add in whatever feats to enhance the DC you want for a Bard, Wiz/Sorc will be doing the same, so the DC will still be 3 higher in the end regardless, for all of 15 more sp then the Bard spends. Now, taking into consideration that the Wiz and Sorc will have quite a bit more sp to use and that their spell will land on the FIRST try instead of..well..probably very rarely for the Bard to get it to land when facing the same mobs at 20th level and lets see who's the more cost effective caster here.....
    ** rolls eyes endlessly **

    Instead of making a bunch of absurd statements about how if this then that and "more effective" this and "have to cast again" that, we can actually compare spells on a direct basis. A heightened Otto's Sphere cast by a 20th level bard with a charisma of 36 versus an unheightened Otto's Sphere cast by a 20th level sorceror with a charisma of 36. Both have dual enchantment spell focus feats and the same greater spell focus enchantment items. The bard used his spellsinger song to increase the DC of his spell by 1, the sorceror had no such song in his casting.

    The DC for the bard is 10 + 6(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) + 1(song) = 34.
    The DC for the sorc is 10 + 7(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) = 34.

    The cost for the bard spell is 35 - 10% = 32.
    The cost for the sorc spell is 40 = 40.

    We're done. Thanks for all the memories.
    Last edited by Raithe; 06-28-2007 at 12:49 AM.

  15. #315
    Community Member gpk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KristovK View Post
    please, don't tell me it's easy to buy something like a +5 Holy Cold Iron weapon or a +3 Greater Bane Weapon with align/eley damage on it.
    Clearly you misread, im saying regular +5 holy (or equivalent) or +1 greater bane weapons are not hard to come by, 99% of the time the cold iron is not a factor.
    And yes, a +3 OR elemental OR alignment greater bane weapon is not easy to buy.

    Honestly Invaders has been dropping named cold iron+good weapons for a while now. There have been many many garzuuls' tyrzas, prysuuls and (sickle) in the AH and shops left unclaimled and this was before +4/5 holies became more and more common. Ppl still preffered to wound the renders and co. on hard/elite back then and most ppl still do.
    Last edited by gpk; 06-28-2007 at 12:38 AM.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    ** rolls eyes endlessly **
    Why do we bother straightening you out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Instead of making a bunch of absurd statements about how if this then that and "more effective" this and "have to cast again" that, we can actually compare spells on a direct basis. A heightened Otto's Sphere cast by a 20th level bard with a charisma of 36 versus an unheightened Otto's Sphere cast by a 20th level sorceror with a charisma of 36.
    Yeah, comparing spells on a direct basis might be a good idea. But that means you can't declare that the sorc decide NOT to heighten, while the bard is allowed to heighten.

    Sorcs have way more mana overall, so they can afford to heighten a lot more than a bard can. Plus they can get an enhancement to further reduce the cost of a Heightened spell. Bards don't get that. If you want to do it fairly, have them both heighten, or neither.

  17. #317
    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpk View Post
    Clearly you misread, im saying regular +5 holy (or equivalent) or +1 greater bane weapons are not hard to come by, 99% of the time the cold iron is not a factor.
    And yes, a +3 OR elemental OR alignment greater bane weapon is not easy to buy.

    Honestly Invaders has been dropping named cold iron+good weapons for a while now. There have been many many garzuuls' tyrzas, prysuuls and (sickle) in the AH and shops left unclaimled and this was before +4/5 holies became more and more common.
    For someone with top of the line equipment including a greater bane for every enemy type, there isn't a spell in the book that would trump it so I'm not sure why you are even commenting. Should they invent a new spell just for the guy who has everything?

    As for availability of +5 holy, I personally check the Rapier section in the AH probably twice a week, and I know that a +5 holy or equivalent is pretty hard to come by.

    And for the record, do you actually have a +5 cold iron holy weapon? I don't mean a +4 cold iron of pure good, I mean a +5 cold iron holy.

    Quote Originally Posted by gpk View Post
    Ppl still preffered to wound the renders and co. on hard/elite back then and most ppl still do.
    Wounding is not faster for a DPS character even with DR, so I'm not sure where that comment comes from.
    Last edited by GeneralDiomedes; 06-28-2007 at 01:21 AM.
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  18. #318
    Community Member Torosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quarion View Post
    Warchanter:
    Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning
    I really like the fact these bard specialisations have been implemented as it really allows bards to pursue a path and gain benefits from their particular play style.. whether its crowd control, melee, healing etc.

    However, i think warchanter has an issue. Is it just me or does requiring both Power Attack AND a weapon focus seem like kind of a stretch? I play a dex based battle bard as do many other people out there im sure, and this seems kind of harsh to need both. I'd be willing to swap a feat if i had to take one of these two pre-requisites.. but i can't drop 2.. that kind of takes me to a point where costs outweigh the benefits.

    Would it not make more sense to do one of the 2 following ideas:
    1) Change weapon focus to improved crit. I mean, this specialisation is obviously meant for battle bard types.. and i would bet just about all of them would have an improved crit feat, crowd control or healer types are less likely to have this (although they may).. so if you are trying to distinguish between those who are melee and those who are not... i just figure this makes more sense.

    2) Why not change it so you only need ONE out of Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing or Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning. Again, i think this is more logical given fighting types likely to take this specialisation are more likely to have one of these 4 feats than those who are less battle intensive.

    Bard's dont generally have a huge attack bonus (well in comparison to the main melee classes) and it just seems harsh that both power attack AND a weapon focus are needed to obtain something that could be so helpful to so many bards.

    Maybe someone has a better idea, i dont know.. these just seem slightly more logical and player friendly to me.

    Regards,

    Toro

  19. #319
    Community Member EspyLacopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    It's like talking to a brick wall.

    I have been trying to keep some things the same throughout this conversation so that things can be compared easily. When a bard heightens a spell to level 6 (which they eventually will be able to do if they have heighten), then it becomes a level 6 spell and will cost accordingly. It could conceivably have the same DC as an unheightened wiz/sorc level 7 spell, but it will cost less for the bard to cast. Once again, so people may actually get it this time, the spell and the DC are the same - but the bard version costs less to cast.

    If the wiz/sorc were to heighten it to level 9 it would cost even more now wouldn't it?
    And why is it not affecting the mage as well? And why wouldn't the mage *also* have heighten?
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  20. #320
    Community Member gpk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes View Post
    For someone with top of the line equipment including a greater bane for every enemy type, there isn't a spell in the book that would trump it so I'm not sure why you are even commenting. Should they invent a new spell just for the guy who has everything?

    As for availability of +5 holy, I personally check the Rapier section in the AH probably twice a week, and I know that a +5 holy or equivalent is pretty hard to come by.

    And for the record, do you actually have a +5 cold iron holy weapon? I don't mean a +4 cold iron of pure good, I mean a +5 cold iron holy.

    Wounding is not faster for a DPS character even with DR, so I'm not sure where that comment comes from.
    I've given aways, sold and auctioned many +5 equivalents of many types of weapons and even more +4s than i can rememeber and Ive gotten a ton from the AH and shop as well with minimal effort.

    I don't have a +5 holy cold iron (got a bunch of +4 equivalents and a banishing rapier) but why does the cold iron keep sticking your head? Last quest I rememeber holy+cold iron being useful on normal is Invasion (WW). Really is Queen Lailat the real reason one would want a +5 holy cold iron melee weapon? The cold iron is a non issue but you seem to be stuck on it.

    For the sake of argument let's say +5 holy weapon equivalent are rare and that +4 holy is not, is a +1 more worth a spell slot, sp and components still? Imo it is not.

    It is precisely for the ppl who DON'T have many greater banes that i bring the issue up, why just last week i went to to sell some junk weapons to the broker and a level 14 +3 axiomatic burst khopesh of righteousness was just sitting there. Lucky me; i guess the rest of the paladin with their +4 holies are going to ooh and ahh over a +5 holy weapons ?. Paladins have had stuff taken away all in the name of rebalancing on numerous occasions now and haven't gotten anything nice in return like the other classes have. I don't need the help weapon wise, others do. To not even be the near equivalent of a plain vanilla +1 greater bane seems like insult to injury if you'll pardon the exxageration.
    Wheres the real incentive to stay pure paladin past level 11/12? Might as well boost your dex and take 2 levels of rogue for UMD and evasion and wear light armor.

    LOL you're checking AH rapier section probably twice a week and complaining about not finding anything? Really thats the basis of your argument? That's an absurdly low amount of times to check the AH unless you can only play twice a week, I'd ask my guildies or buddies to glance at the AH for me when they're on or post in the marketplace forums (ha).

    Honestly if anything you should WANT Holy Sword to be boosted if you play a paladin in DDO if that's how little you play or glance at shops/AH.

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