In Developement: New Spells and Enhancements for 4.2

[Gimpster]

My point was that this is yet another melee enhancement. Maybe my Dwarven Skald heaves axes to cleave his enemies's skulls. Is it conventional?

This is a really minor point, and there are more serious issues regarding these enhancements.

As you seem to know, ranged attacks in DDO are weak, unless prehaps you are an actual ranger. Allowing someone to qualify for Warchanter with Weapon Focus Thrown would be largely irrelevant. Turbine may as well allow it, because it's an underpowered choice and it would be almost a self-nerf for a bard to take that feat.

The important issues are the number of feats required to qualify for these things. Mainly, the problem is that since all bards take Extend Spell for longer Haste, Spellsinger has no real cost in feats. But since few bards have both Power Attack and Weapon Focus (and most have neither), Warchanter practically has a cost of 2 feats.

It looks very unfair for one option to cost 2 feats while the others cost zero.

Warchanter should be changed to allow you entry as long as you have spent one feat to demonstrate your dedication to aggressive weapon combat. Anyone with ONE of Power Attack, Weapon Focus (any), TWF, or Point Blank Shot should be allowed to qualify.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

welcome, to DDO where the game is in a constant state of evolution

i completely agree that your present bard might not be able to be a good "warchanter"

however, i believe that if you create a build, e.g., 10bard/2barbarian/2fighter 32-point human or dwarf, you will see that there is now a good alternative to the drow cc-specialist or the 2-weapon drow-finesse bard builds

you will basically have a "bardbarian" who makes his whole party even better at "war" than the regular bard & can keep himself raged, hasted & blurred/displaced, deal damage as an off-tank, & can also heal himself all at the same time

actually, if you have a "warchanter" & a "spellsinger" in the same party, that party IMO will be unstoppable

it sounds pretty awesome to me & i cannot wait until July when i can roll one up

oooo that does sound like fun

[DrAwkward]

Who in there right mind would ever spec for force in this game - I cant think any time force would be able to deal anywhere near the damage of cold or fire depending on the mob immunity

We can debate the "right mind" part, but here's my reason:

I play a Warforged Wizard, and my regular bodyguard is an Improved Fort Warforged Fighter. Its my job to keep him vertical, its his job to keep me from making concentration checks to keep him vertical.

I'm specced out in repair, because he is very good at holding aggro. Speccing out in repair by the rules of the game mean I'm mostly specced out in force anyway, so I dump the few extra AP in to get force crits.

My force missiles and magic missiles do respectable damage. Not nearly as much as it would versus a vulnerability, but what I pay in lower damage output, I gain by not having to worry about what I'm hitting.

This spell, depending on how crazy-go-nuts the Devs go, can pretty much eliminate what little use my enhancements may have when not running with WF tanks.

[wiglin]

I agree 100%, what about TWF battle Bards I can't spare the feats for warchanter why aren't they on the list of possible prereqs? If they don't want me to be a warchanter how about a dervishchanter or some other options for the rest of us.

The vast number of options in a game like DDO makes it impossible for devs to create enhancements to cater to every single type of build out there. In this game we are not pigeon holed into any single build. There are tons of build concepts. Some better than others, and I do agree Einar that your twf bard is a very effective mellee bard, but to expect the devs to come up with a line of enhancements for every build is a little far fetched.

What I do agree with you on, is make the pre-req a little more wide spread so any mellee bard can gain access to warchanter, not just the 2hf bardbarian that has been widely discussed on the forums as of late.

[EinarMal]

The vast number of options in a game like DDO makes it impossible for devs to create enhancements to cater to every single type of build out there. In this game we are not pigeon holed into any single build. There are tons of build concepts. Some better than others, and I do agree Einar that your twf bard is a very effective mellee bard, but to expect the devs to come up with a line of enhancements for every build is a little far fetched.

What I do agree with you on, is make the pre-req a little more wide spread so any mellee bard can gain access to warchanter, not just the 2hf bardbarian that has been widely discussed on the forums as of late.

Well the dervishchanter was kind of a joke The main point was that they should make this a little more general so that more people could take them if they wanted to sacrifice something else. I am sorry but two feats is asking a lot and they are really narrow feats. Would it kill them to throw TWF in there as one of them? Maybe power attack still and TWF or even an improved critical? That is all I am saying.

[Gimpster]

This spell, depending on how crazy-go-nuts the Devs go, can pretty much eliminate what little use my enhancements may have when not running with WF tanks.

How often do you meet a monster who casts Shield? That happens, but is very rare.

Shield is on the sorc/wiz list, and Nightshield is on the sorc, wiz, and cleric lists.

1. Many many DDO monsters are apparently the Mystic Theurge class, and cast a mix of arcane and divine spells (think of all those kobold shamans with magic missile). If the devs wanted those monsters to have FM immunity, they'd already have them casting Shield.

2. Those spellcaster monsters who do not have Shield on their class lists are Clerics. Since Clerics already have Cure and Heal spells, plinking away on their health with single-target damage spells is already a waste of time. Really, how often do you fight a Wyrm-cult Bone-knitter with damage? If you want to kill him, you use FOD.

[joenic2]

I have a quick question about the spellsinger enhancement for bards. Will the +1 DC and 10% discount on SP also be applied to the bard itself? Also, is it only one song per rest or is it as many times that you can play between rests. And finally, does anyone know how long its effects will last?

[Gimpster]

I have a quick question about the spellsinger enhancement for bards. Will the +1 DC and 10% discount on SP also be applied to the bard itself?

Since it applies to "all nearby allies", it most certainly will work the same way Inspire Courage does, and apply to the bard too.

[Freeman]

I have a quick question about the spellsinger enhancement for bards. Will the +1 DC and 10% discount on SP also be applied to the bard itself? Also, is it only one song per rest or is it as many times that you can play between rests. And finally, does anyone know how long its effects will last?

Yes, it should work on the bard also. You should be able to use it as many times as you have bard songs. The duration will most likely match current bard buff songs, so about 7 minutes with all the Lingering Song enhancements.

[Freeman]

Perform enhancements and feats open up the opportunity to expand your bard into new realms with the new enhancements, so I would hardly say they are worthless.

Yes, they are still worthless. You gain absolutely no benefit from taking the perform enhancement line or feat. You do get a benefit from taking a later enhancement that it opens up, but that is still not a benefit. That is the equivalent of Energy of Music I giving 0 spell points, but Energy of Music II giving 30. In that case, Energy of Music I would be worthless, even if it did open up Energy of Music II.

[Zenako]

I have a quick question about the spellsinger enhancement for bards. Will the +1 DC and 10% discount on SP also be applied to the bard itself? Also, is it only one song per rest or is it as many times that you can play between rests. And finally, does anyone know how long its effects will last?

It darn well better...

Seriously, this will make shrine pits stops even less urgent or give those mana junkies a 10% FREE boost in their blue bar. It may not sound like much, but it WILL add up...

[joker965]

Oh and nice ninja post that guy!!!

I'm not really sure how I did that actually.

[Zenako]

Yes, they are still worthless. You gain absolutely no benefit from taking the perform enhancement line or feat. You do get a benefit from taking a later enhancement that it opens up, but that is still not a benefit. That is the equivalent of Energy of Music I giving 0 spell points, but Energy of Music II giving 30. In that case, Energy of Music I would be worthless, even if it did open up Energy of Music II.

Ok then, since taking those enhancements are Worthless, then don't. Clearly the fact that they act as prereqs for something else does not matter in this case, regardless of what that next step is or what worth you might see in it. If the first step to get there is worthless, then the goal after it must also be worthless. I understand that as the game is currently constituted that you get little to no direct benefit from Perform skill, so perform itself is worthless, yet because it is a prereq for various Bard songs, bard tend to take that worthless skill, but why take something that is in of itself worthless. Prereqs have a place and value in the game.

[LordDamax]

Perhaps you don't quite understand what I mean by useless. A blackguard with 5 ranks in Tumble can tumble better.

I'd argue a paladin in full plate with 5 ranks in tumble still has a Tumble of -1.

[LordDamax]

Haha. That would be hilarious if it were true.

But it's not. The requirements for Blackguard are Hide 5, Religion 2, Cleave, Improved Sunder, and the obligatory peaceful contact with an evil outsider.

And Hide 5 is MORE useful for a blackguard in fullplate? It's STILL a useless requirement.

[joker965]

Ok too many posts in 6 pages to reply to.

First, for the OMG Nightsield stops force missiles??? Overpowered!!

Shield does that. Shield has ALWAYS done that. It's also available on a wand in the tent that anyone with a UMD of 1 or better can use (ok, not well, but they can use it).

Next, warchanters and ranged... Um... Warchanters seem to be based off the norse war chaters/skalds/battle-poets... I believe its a ripoff of a prestige class of the same name.

Just because something is put in the game doesnt mean everyone should benefit from it equally. Norse Skalds were barbarians that chanted, sung battle hymns, and composed epic battle poetry. They didnt throw daggers and fight with a bow.

I think the prereqs, while steep, fit perfectly with the class. It grants an extra rage per day, of COURSE it's meant for bard/barbarian multiclasses. And what barbarian in their right mind doesnt wield a 2 handed weapon, let alone DOES use a bow?

Speaking of which, to the person who knows the sorc who casts MM exclusively... um... educate him. The damage output for time, and for damage per mana spent is ABYSSMAL. Its only benefit is it's almost universally unstoppable.


As for all the 'useless' prereqs... go check out prestige classes. They have them all the time. One of the prereqs for Blackguard, the Anti-paladin, the class that rewards fallen paladins for converting to evil is 5 ranks in Tumble. Sure, a rogue could be a blackguard, but there are massive rewards for fallen paladins. And it REQUIRES 5 ranks in Tumble. What paladin in their right mind puts points in tumble?

Of course enhancements THIS powerful have stupid prereqs.... Spellsinger gibving the entire PARTY -10% on mana use AND +1 to all save DCs? Thats insane. +1 to hit and +2 to damage AND DR 5 to EVERYONE in your group? Of course warchanter prereqs are sick.

Virtuoso isnt as bad, but it's still extremely powerful. A fascinate that debuffs everything with NO SAVE? Thats powerful as well.

I dunno I see a lot of whining and not a lot of yay. I started rolling a bardbarian a few weeks ago he just hit 14. i'm respecing out a feat and am SALIVATING over warchanter.

Sorry about quoting this whole thing but... too much QFT here. I had to relist it all.

[wiglin]

Yes, they are still worthless. You gain absolutely no benefit from taking the perform enhancement line or feat. You do get a benefit from taking a later enhancement that it opens up, but that is still not a benefit. That is the equivalent of Energy of Music I giving 0 spell points, but Energy of Music II giving 30. In that case, Energy of Music I would be worthless, even if it did open up Energy of Music II.

I disagree, if the only thing taking energy of music I did was open up the ability to take energy of music II, then it is not worthless. Now when taken by itself, yes it is worthless, but you you wouldn't take EOM I by itself if you did not get anything out of it, you would be taking it so that you can gain access to get something that is not worthless...in this case 30sp

For instance. Lets look at the diet drug craze of the 90's. Most of the pills people used were for for the most part useless by themselves, but when they exercised and took the pills the pills gave them an edge on their weight loss.

This is not so different then taking skill focus perform. By itself it has little effect to what you can do as a bard, but by taking it you have the option to expand your abilities.

A pre-req in itself does not have to give anything extra to the player. It is what it is. A pre-req you take it so you can gain something else.

[Freeman]

Ok then, since taking those enhancements are Worthless, then don't. Clearly the fact that they act as prereqs for something else does not matter in this case, regardless of what that next step is or what worth you might see in it. If the first step to get there is worthless, then the goal after it must also be worthless. I understand that as the game is currently constituted that you get little to no direct benefit from Perform skill, so perform itself is worthless, yet because it is a prereq for various Bard songs, bard tend to take that worthless skill, but why take something that is in of itself worthless. Prereqs have a place and value in the game.

The skill is not worthless. The enhancements and feat are. No other prerequisite for enhancements or feats has absolutely zero benefit to the character. My whole argument(Look up about two feet and you'll see it flying by) is that they are forcing us to take things with no benefit at all. On my rogue, I had to take things to qualify for Way of the Mechanic that I didn't originally have in my enhancements. Because of that, I gained +1 saves vs traps and a small amount of fire resistance. To qualify for Spellsinger(I said in one of my first posts that I would be taking it), I have to take enhancements for the Cure spells and Lyric of Deadly Song enhancements. To get any benefit from those, I have to change my spell lineup. I wish those requirements weren't necessary, but I won't be terribly upset if they are left in. However, for Virtuoso(I don't want to take it, regardless of the prereqs), you are required to spend action points for enhancements that absolutely CANNOT benefit you in any way whatsoever. If they have announced at the same time that your Perform skill was properly used in the DC for Fascinate, I would have no problem with it. But no other prerequisite in the game gives the character absolutely no benefit. Why do they feel it necessary to force bards to completely waste action points? No matter how you look at it, that is three action points that you gain no benefit from.

[Solik]

Warchanter builds may be well-served by taking a level or two of fighter along with their barbarian and bard levels. That will help significantly with the feat prereqs. Depends whether you can give up the two levels of class features and enhancements.

[dormetheus]

Is there any way to broaden the feat requirements for the Warchanter?

Since it seems to be catering to the Bardbarian, why not make the feat requirements: Power Atack AND (WF OR THF)