Changes Focused on Boosting Game Performance

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Before this change: Simulations of a raid group proccing on-hit effects use approx 99.965% processing per-instance and produce an effects queue, which causes combat processing lag for all players on the same server while the queue is processed.
After this change: Simulations of a raid group proccing on-hit effects use approx 50% available processing per-instance (still well within the green zone of server frames per second) and rarely if ever hit an effects queue.

An important thing to note when going into this is that when an effects queue happens, it does not only affect your instance, but every other instance on the server that your instance is being processed by. Server in this case does not refer to world, such as Ghallanda or Sarlona or Wayfinder, but the actual machines that process DDO and share the load of each instance between them.

Translation : The raid crowd / end game crowd is causing its own lag over which it whines heavily.

This is roughly what i have expected. Those who are the loudest ones about lag are also the source of it.

[SpartanKiller13]

What about dmg to stats, mark of death, mrr debuffs, vampirism, quelling strikes, neg lvls from night revel augments and occasionally blood is life? Because, you know, these are all procs i use on my build in one single attack from only my main weapon that now will not proc with the same frequency while i solo. Would you like to tell me how i'm wrong to get mad that i'm getting nerfed? Would you like to shield the "devs" a little more? Or could we just leave it saying that you like it and should stop telling people how they should think? Go on, play your game, let other people do the same.

Damage to stats and Vampirism are explicitly called out as doubling when you Doublestrike, so there's functionally no change to those. MRR debuff is in a similar spot to Dust. Negative levels I don't know if it will double. IDK about the rest, but that's at least a good chunk of your concerns alleviated.

I'm happy to take some minor nerfs if it actually reduces lag - because I'll be able to solo better with less lag even on a weaker toon. If there's no performance improvement we'll all be sad though lol. Have you never died to lag? Does lag not affect your solo gameplay experience? If so I'll stop arguing, but personally it's a relevant factor.

[Zoveride]

Why does everyone assume they'll gut Tempest capstone (and nerf PTWF etc) without adding something to make up for that?

.[/B]

Because this is not the first time they remove something without replacing it.
Recent Example: "Bow Pass"

As you may or may not know, several bows are getting nerfed with this "bow pass". Specifically their crit range is being nerfed. What is being done to make up for that? Nothing.

You might think, wait...Point Blank Shot will give + 1 crit threat range - while this may be true, this is NOT to put it back on the nerfed bows, it is part of a BUFF TO ALL BOWS, while several specific RAID BOWS get nerfed.

So, yes, everyone should assume that the Tempest Capstone will be gutted with nothing to be added to make up for it.

[Ulfo]

Damage to stats and Vampirism are explicitly called out as doubling when you Doublestrike, so there's functionally no change to those.

But it's clearly called in when you Doubleshot... so?

[GroundhogDay]

Damage to stats and Vampirism are explicitly called out as doubling when you Doublestrike, so there's functionally no change to those. MRR debuff is in a similar spot to Dust. Negative levels I don't know if it will double. IDK about the rest, but that's at least a good chunk of your concerns alleviated.

I'm happy to take some minor nerfs if it actually reduces lag - because I'll be able to solo better with less lag even on a weaker toon. If there's no performance improvement we'll all be sad though lol. Have you never died to lag? Does lag not affect your solo gameplay experience? If so I'll stop arguing, but personally it's a relevant factor.

Nope, that's 2 out of 6 on only one of my two weapons. If you call that a good chunk, well, the joke writes itself.

For me lag isn't a problem, hardly ever had a death due to lag issues and it doesn't impact my gameplay so much to call for what is a nerf on my gameplay. Also i don't care about HC nor reaper.

This is a major nerf (the latest in a never ending series) for something that doesn't affect me, and, while you'll gladly take it, to me is unacceptable. Simply put, what other players experience is not something that concerns me so much to be ok with seeing my toon get nerfed yet again, not when the "dev" team could simply get better, or get better hardware.

[Valerianus]

i have questions please. maybe this will be just a stupid rant i guess.

since "queue" is the new cool word i want to use it, forget the halo. also queue is a funny word, i mean, it's a q followed by 4 mute letters, i mean really why are you doing this, what a word is that?

anyway

about queue, the question is, there were other solution that weren't involving changing builds, crippling the way some players are playing?

just brainstorming now, i want to build some queue

you cast a spell, inventory is checked, you have mats, mats are removed, weight is adjusted

your face collide with a fireball, whole inventory is cheched, chances to destroy\damage something are rolled, items are removed, weight is adjusted

you fire an arrow, inventory is checked, you have arrows, arrows are removed, weight is adjusted

now mash all of this together in a raid while healers are healing, casters are casting, tanks are tankin, everyone is getting damage and ranged are manyshotting, fusillading, not holding barrels, stuff.

how many times per seconds the inventories of the raid party is checked, modified, and weight adjusted?

this was just an example, and asking, please, i'm not a tech guy, this kind of stuff is easy for the system, such operation can be processed godzillion of times per second without breaking a sweat or are they potentially resource heavy? is this healty for our old inventory system, was it really built for all of this?

i mean, the question is, were other things taken into consideration to alleviate the system and don't build queue BEFORE deciding to change the way some players play? if yes, which ones? even if only with brainstorming, i bet i can safely say that all we players will be happy to contribute with ideas\suggestions.

[Valerianus]

also, how is the mob aggro\detection sharing things going? are we sure its performance are not degraded and causing some kind of bloat? again, i'm not a tech guy, but sometimes while playing you have the clear impression that yes, it's a thing, when something spawns something happens. just saying. or maybe it's just because the game badly lags but not because of this?

[therobb]

I did some more testing today on a throwing dagger build. ~200 doubleshot, ~250 ranged power (without archer's focus stacks).

I was soloing and there were 21 people on the Lamania server. Key observations:

1. I could trigger lag sometimes when activating Multitude of Missiles

2. Throwing dagger combat feels much worse and has a lot lower damage output than on Live due to several issues:
a) Dry throws where the animation goes off but no dagger appears to be thrown.
b) Rolling a 1 results in no hits on doubleshots so you really feel the lack of anything happening, especially when that rolled 1 is on a special attack with a long cooldown
c) Normally on a ranged build I use Aimed Shot from the Deepwood Stalker tree to keep up stacks of Archer's Focus. While soloing a simple R3 run I could never keep more than 3 stacks of Archer's Focus up, while on Live servers I regularly keep 25 stacks up at almost all times. Effectively losing 100+ ranged power is a deal breaker for all ranged builds in my opinion.
d) Nerve Venom used to be useful crowd control and now simply doesn't proc often enough to be worthwhile.

3. Hunt's End damage numbers are huge - which in the current config is the only redeeming factor for ranged combat that otherwise feels bad. Ranged will not be worth playing in my opinion, to one-shot a mob every 24 seconds (assuming you don't roll a 1) and then be frustrated the rest of the time.


Overall, this type of build feels fun to play on Live but now it is frustrating to play in the current Lamannia setup. If the current setup on Lamannia goes to Live, I will retire my ranged characters and question the value of admitting ranged characters to groups I join.

[SpartanKiller13]

Because this is not the first time they remove something without replacing it.
Recent Example: "Bow Pass"

As you may or may not know, several bows are getting nerfed with this "bow pass". Specifically their crit range is being nerfed. What is being done to make up for that? Nothing.

You might think, wait...Point Blank Shot will give + 1 crit threat range - while this may be true, this is NOT to put it back on the nerfed bows, it is part of a BUFF TO ALL BOWS, while several specific RAID BOWS get nerfed.

So, yes, everyone should assume that the Tempest Capstone will be gutted with nothing to be added to make up for it.

I don't think your logic follows? In your example they literally just reduced some outliers, and those are still better than other bows - instead of +2 it's +1 - which is not a removal, it's a reduction.

Gear that is significantly overperforming (by being BiS) is being nerfed to no longer be the clear BiS always (like RL belts). The bows aren't being deleted. They'll still have better than standard crit profiles. ALL BOWS ARE BEING BUFFED, just those less than others.

Dervish is losing like 80% of the enhancement, currently. It's not overperforming. If nothing is done, it will be a significant nerf to it.

Bows will end up better after this pass compared to before, and the named bows which are significantly overperforming their counterparts will deal more damage post-pass than before it, even if they are nerfed relative to their previous dominance.

These two things are not equivalent.

[Snormal]

Dervish is losing like 80% of the enhancement, currently. It's not overperforming. If nothing is done, it will be a significant nerf to it.

Agree with entire post except the bolded. Ranger 20 crowds out other TWF options because of capstone - most just can't compete with the dps. With the offhand doublestrike removed there's almost no reason to go 20 ranger over 18/x, so I hope they add something back in to make the capstone worth taking, but I think it should be tuned down from the power differential that it currently provides on live.

[GroundhogDay]

Gear that is significantly overperforming (by being BiS) is being nerfed to no longer be the clear BiS always (like RL belts)

This is something i'll never understand, reducing options instead of adding them. By that logic let's say Steelstar is right handed, should he then cut two fingers in his right hand to balance it with the left? Never made sense to me.

[Epicsoul]

Translation : The raid crowd / end game crowd is causing its own lag over which it whines heavily.

This is roughly what i have expected. Those who are the loudest ones about lag are also the source of it.

I'm constantly ashamed for actually playing the game. Please, don't add to the guilt I already experience.

As you may or may not know, several bows are getting nerfed with this "bow pass". Specifically their crit range is being nerfed. What is being done to make up for that? Nothing.

No matter how many times you post this, you're still wrong.

[SpartanKiller13]

Agree with entire post except the bolded. Ranger 20 crowds out other TWF options because of capstone - most just can't compete with the dps. With the offhand doublestrike removed there's almost no reason to go 20 ranger over 18/x, so I hope they add something back in to make the capstone worth taking, but I think it should be tuned down from the power differential that it currently provides on live.

Alright that's fair, but without the offhand DS it would be underperforming, hence why I expect it to be reworked. Same with PTWF etc.

FWIW the TWF toons I see are all VKF Assassins, but YMMV. I would definitely appreciate more diversity, and having offhand DS untied from Tempest is a great step on that route.

This is something i'll never understand, reducing options instead of adding them. By that logic let's say Steelstar is right handed, should he then cut two fingers in his right hand to balance it with the left? Never made sense to me.

It's more like how steroids aren't allowed in the Olympics, because allowing them would force everyone to use steroids to be competitive. Like Enhancement spellpower items, or +2 range Bows - if you're not using those on a relevant build, you're objectively worse than someone who is.

Does that make more sense?

To use your example it would be more like if Steelstar had 7 fingers on his right hand, and got surgery to balance his hands out each with 6 fingers. Since, ya know, other bows are getting boosted. And since more fingers is obviously better in this example?

[IBCrabin]

I'm constantly ashamed for actually playing the game. Please, don't add to the guilt I already experience.



No matter how many times you post this, you're still wrong.

Does the expand threat from PBS get modified by IC: Range?

Another thing that was done frequently to prop up Longbows and Shortbows in the past was to give them abnormally large Critical Threat bonuses. This is no longer needed after this pass, so we've taken Bows that have exceptionally large Critical Threat Ranges (18-20) and reduced them by 1 (19-20). All of these still have a larger Critical Threat Range than average Bows, just not as large as before.

The problem with their explanation and approach is there are other weapons with special threat range they should adjust / nerf at the same time as this coming update. i.e. Drow weapons, Sword of Shadow, Rat catcher, etc etc.

If the expand threat is a reason to prop up the playstyle, then why are there other types of weapon with special threat range?

Doing a weapon change on special case weapons shouldn't take a lot of time out of their schedule to be somewhat consistent with their explanation for this coming update.

[Zoveride]

I don't think your logic follows? In your example they literally just reduced some outliers, and those are still better than other bows - instead of +2 it's +1 - which is not a removal, it's a reduction.


Logic checks out. Removal/reduction is still a loss that is not being compensated for. Nothing has been added back to the capstone for Tempest as of yet just like nothing is being added on the actual bows being nerfed.

Gear that is significantly overperforming (by being BiS) is being nerfed to no longer be the clear BiS always (like RL belts). The bows aren't being deleted. They'll still have better than standard crit profiles. ALL BOWS ARE BEING BUFFED, just those less than others.


The raid bows with enhanced crit profiles are not getting buffed but nerfed. You are talking about the BOW itself when you say ALL BOWS ARE BEING BUFFED. While there are buffs to bow gameplay, the bows themselves are not getting buffed.

Dervish is losing like 80% of the enhancement, currently. It's not overperforming. If nothing is done, it will be a significant nerf to it.

Bows will end up better after this pass compared to before, and the named bows which are significantly overperforming their counterparts will deal more damage post-pass than before it, even if they are nerfed relative to their previous dominance.

We can't really use "over-performing" when talking about bows, let's be real, that's why there is a bow pass.
Also, there is some info somewhere in this thread. Someone has pics and math showing these "crit bows" will actually be inferior than others if this goes live.


These two things are not equivalent.

Comments directly in quote.

TLR - No reason to have faith that Tempest Capstone will see anything added to it to make up for the proposed nerf.

[rabidfox]

The problem with their explanation and approach is there are other weapons with special threat range they should adjust / nerf at the same time as this coming update. i.e. Drow weapons, Sword of Shadow, Rat catcher, etc etc.

If the expand threat is a reason to prop up the playstyle, then why are there other types of weapon with special threat range?

I'd totally love it if they removed 1 from the crit range on all those weapons and put +1 crit range to every weapon of those base types in via a low hanging feat. WIN!

[Zoveride]

I'm constantly ashamed for actually playing the game. Please, don't add to the guilt I already experience.



No matter how many times you post this, you're still wrong.

Sorry you don't understand. If you have any of these bows, you will notice that they are 18-20x3

If you take your character with the bow over to lammania, the bow itself is 19-20x3

This is called a nerf. Taking a feat to get it back does not change the fact that the bow itself has been nerfed.

[nateusmaximus]

The change to reduce "procs" seems to have broken other effects that rely on something proc'ing - I tried Dire Charge (DC 125, so that wasn't the issue) in a variety of contexts and reaper skull levels in two different quests, and I was only able to get it to function properly in one of dozens of attempts.

With some more testing, it isn't just Dire Charge that isn't working properly, it's basically every activated attack. Each has some reasonably high chance of not working properly or just plain not going off - far higher than I've ever experienced before on live except with explicitly bugged abilities. Is this because of how they are queued and how they now work in the new system? Have other people seen this?

Also, it wasn't just attacks, there were spells that seemed to have similar problems - like not even affecting mobs well within their range, while affecting mobs on the other side of them further away. This wasn't mobs saving, this was them not even experiencing the spell. This was especially prevalent with CC spells. Again, is this because of how those spell effects queue? Are they basically registering as procs of some kind and being ignored?

I think if these changes go live as-is, I'll need to step away from the game for a month or two (both to let the inevitable s&!t storm subside, and to let fixes be implemented so as to minimize my frustration). Maybe that'll be a good opportunity to evaluate the role DDO plays in my life. I'm glad my VIP is up in May.


Edit: These tests were done with a Deep Gnome Female at cap.

[Tuxedoman96]

This is called a nerf. Taking a feat to get it back does not change the fact that the bow itself has been nerfed.

They could always make the raid bows easier to acquire and change the S/S/S drop rates (or the mechanic altogether). That would resolve the difficulty of acquisition issue, which seems to be the biggest complaint levied at changing these bows.

[Discpsycho]

Does the expand threat from PBS get modified by IC: Range?

No, but per the Wiki page, both long- and shortbows get a +1 from Improved Critical. The "Improved Critical doubles your base range" ship sailed a while ago, so it's moot.

Also, most endgame weapons have Keen/Impact/etc. these days. Not that endgame is the only game in town, but that's where folks argue damage matters most, and inferior damage is noticed more.

The problem with their explanation and approach is there are other weapons with special threat range they should adjust / nerf at the same time as this coming update. i.e. Drow weapons, Sword of Shadow, Rat catcher, etc etc.

If the expand threat is a reason to prop up the playstyle, then why are there other types of weapon with special threat range?

Doing a weapon change on special case weapons shouldn't take a lot of time out of their schedule to be somewhat consistent with their explanation for this coming update.

...Have you been paying attention to the other balance changes? During the Inquisitive balance pass, Ratcatcher lost 1 critical threat range. It's still the best heroic crossbow, it's just no longer the best one from 20-29 as well. Same with the Nightforge weapons when Alchemist came out

THF got a bit of a pass, but that was the fighting style as a whole. Arguably Inquisitive was too, but dual-crossbow is focused on a single tree and weapon type that was previously overperforming. THF's nerf was because it was overperforming for many builds / weapons. Nerfing SoS / Drow Maul / etc. would shore up some outliers, but it wouldn't have solved the issue of THF dominating endgame content as well, since few endgame weapons these days have expanded critical profiles.

In this case, the net result is no change for the bows with expanded crit profiles. The gap between them and other bows is narrowing, but that's because other bows are getting better profiles and the expanded-profile bows are remaining where they were. Not to mention it's happening simultaneously, unlike Alch + Nightforge or Inq + Ratcatcher, where that FotM spec was OP for a while before they brought it back into line.

And finally, all of this is happening in anticipation of Horizon Walker. They know what it will contain (or at least the broad strokes, relative power, etc) and we don't. At least wait until Horizon Walker previews before tooting the DoomHorn