Dear warlocks that are heroic racial TRing on reaper over and over

[Satyriasys]

Anyone can keep up with a Warlock, it takes 10x more skill, gear and grind but it's possible.

[Morroiel]

Anyone can keep up with a Warlock, it takes 10x more skill, gear and grind but it's possible.

Disagree on gear: we are mostly talking about heroics therefore cannith crafting, slavers set, etc. are norm for any spellcaster.

Definitely takes more skill and I'm inclined to agree that accumulated pls are worth more on other builds than on warlocks.

[Jasparion]

If you build the sorc and warlock correctly: defenses should be about the same (barring mrr - which should be ~10-20 mrr on average, note this is late-level shifted too). HP is in favor of warlock by 2*(level of comparison) - so ~20ish hp. Neither of these make a big dent in survivability - surely not enough to change hits-to-death number.

The only things warlocks have going for them over sorcs is temp hp and evards. Sorcs have much higher dps and casting speed (cooldown reduction) for key cc spells. I'd give the advantage to sorc if you make use of everything. This is even further true when in adding a second, third, etc. party member to a static group, where evards becomes a non factor if someone else is playing warlock.

The truth is that sorcs have always been the single best zerg class in heroics if played optimally. That being said: I think arti is better due to the trap bonus to xp they generate, as well as, the expected power boost they are about to receive in <1 month.

"The only thing".... temp HP. That is huge.

What Sorc are you playing that gets within 20 HP and 10 MRR of a Warlock? You are making a lot of claims, but how about we see some examples.

And how do you keep up with the sheer number of spells Warlocks can cast? Spam chugging SP pots?

Disagree on gear: we are mostly talking about heroics therefore cannith crafting, slavers set, etc. are norm for any spellcaster.

Definitely takes more skill and I'm inclined to agree that accumulated pls are worth more on other builds than on warlocks.

Disagrees on needing gear then lists the most OP heroic gear available.

[mr420247]

Guess you've never seen a sorc splash 3 pally with a skyvault

[Jasparion]

Guess you've never seen a sorc splash 3 pally with a skyvault

1. Warlock couldnt find a way to use that shield?

2. Its level 14 if you wait for the good one.

3. Losing 3 Sorc levels means your Spellpoint pool is even smaller - meaning you are even more likely to be chugging pots.

4. Losing 3 Sorc levels means you are losing a fair bit of Spell Pen - meaning the sneaky non-DPS trick for Sorcs being Enchantments is less powerful.

5. Couldnt a Warlock go 3 Paladin? Sure, you are restricted on your options, but you still get everything the Sorc gets.

6. Warlocks can go down to level 8 and still be super powerful. A Sorc cant do that.

Im sure there are others, but 6 is enough.

[mr420247]

No doubt

You can build for defenses or dcs up to you

Sorcs can def use a pass too after artis

[Morroiel]

"The only thing".... temp HP. That is huge.

What Sorc are you playing that gets within 20 HP and 10 MRR of a Warlock? You are making a lot of claims, but how about we see some examples.

And how do you keep up with the sheer number of spells Warlocks can cast? Spam chugging SP pots?



Disagrees on needing gear then lists the most OP heroic gear available.

Temp hp is huge but so is being able to throw out cc spells rapid fire like candy, which a sorc can do and a lock can't. If a sorc gets in a really bad situation: he can immediately blow a chunk of his sp bar to get out of it; a warlock can sometimes do the same but its a lot less effective / efficient and usually results in all of the sp on the lock being used.

Fact: if you are playing an ES lock (especially in heroics) you are doing it wrong. Nearly every "good" player will tell you that souleater/tainted scholar is the way to go in heroics (and for that matter in epics too).

This means that the only mechanical difference w.r.t. hp is the hit die number - d6 vs d4. Rough averaging for levels in heroics gives you an average effective hp increase of 20 hp instead of a sorc. Similar analysis does the same for MRR, since nothing in SE or TS gives access to actual hp - so its entirely due to the mrr in the warlock levels and the goo special ability. Both sorcs and warlocks should be in light armor - as sorcs in heroics should be making use of the EK tree to access wand/scroll mastery for self healing.

This is purely looking at the differences in locks vs sorcs - all other things being constant. I'm not going to do full breakdowns because lets face it

Additionally, the gear I listed is the most OP heroic gear but if you plan on doing 30 racial pls, etc. and plan to do them on reaper -> you bet your ass your going to want that gear on the lock or sorc doesn't matter. In total I spent maybe 8 hours grinding out all the cha caster gear I need: roughly 4.5 hours on cannith collectibles, 3.5 hours on heroic slavers multiboxing. While the gear is strong, its hardly a barrier to get -> I'd say its easier now to twink out your character in heroics than it EVER has been before.

Lastly, I've said this before and I'll say it again: I'm REALLY good at sp management -> I know when its better to cast the full metad delayed blast fireball vs using slas vs using cc / instakills / charms. I hardly ever run out of sp on either sorc or lock or for that matter any build during heroics. Lastly on both lock and sorc lives if I've overextended myself (due to player err) and had to blow my sp bar, I use shard of mnemonic enhancement -> I just farmed for collectibles today and managed to pull 6 trinkets worth of ebb dragonshards in under 2 hours - that's 120 major pots effectively. SP isn't an issue for anyone - even for the people like myself who didn't stockpile duped pots.

I am consistently amazed with people like you: just because I couldn't get a class to work it must be the class that is an issue not my playstyle, skill, etc. NO the real answer is that something you are doing isn't cutting it - its not the class' or build's fault.

Also for the record: sp is a bigger issue on locks than sorcs if you play both correctly - dc casting dominates for levels 12/13+ by a significant margin in anything r3+; if you are consistently running r5, dc casting is the bread and butter of any caster. During heroics, locks don't really have that much of an advantage with regards to sp over the sorcs (TS slas but its marginal) -> finger sla is nice but considering the fact that you don't get circle of death and double finger till 17th, you are pretty **** out of luck. Additionally, sorcs get mass suggestion at level 12. Not to mention they are rocking double prismatics at 15.

[LT218]

You get those numbers in Heroics? Really?

Please post your build and gear.

Or are you having a discussion with yourself, while everyone else is discussing something completely different?

I guess I am having a discussion with myself since you missed the points.

I thought it was pretty obvious that the 2nd sentence referred to endgame and was just used to illustrate the point that proper sorcerer builds do not have problems with spell points. I also thought it was pretty obvious that my third sentence tied it back into heroics and what other people were discussing. Guess I should have spelled it out more for you. My bad.

It's been a while since I ran a sorcerer TR zerg template but, if memory serves correctly, even back then a good sorcerer could have 1k spell points by lvl 6 and can break 4k spell points by level 20. I would guess that more is possible these days with the power creep, reaper points, etc. Hell, the 200 spell point Ioun Stone gives a sorcerer 400 extra spell points at level 5. If you can't make it from shrine to shrine in heroics with a sorcerer's spell point pool, you're doing it very, very wrong. I skipped half the shrines in heroics on the sorcerer because I didn't need them.

[Jasparion]

I guess I am having a discussion with myself since you missed the points.

I thought it was pretty obvious that the 2nd sentence referred to endgame and was just used to illustrate the point that proper sorcerer builds do not have problems with spell points. I also thought it was pretty obvious that my third sentence tied it back into heroics and what other people were discussing. Guess I should have spelled it out more for you. My bad.

It's been a while since I ran a sorcerer TR zerg template but, if memory serves correctly, even back then a good sorcerer could have 1k spell points by lvl 6 and can break 4k spell points by level 20. I would guess that more is possible these days with the power creep, reaper points, etc. Hell, the 200 spell point Ioun Stone gives a sorcerer 400 extra spell points at level 5. If you can't make it from shrine to shrine in heroics with a sorcerer's spell point pool, you're doing it very, very wrong. I skipped half the shrines in heroics on the sorcerer because I didn't need them.

400 SP from an Ioun Stone at level 5. Where are the other 600 coming from?

Further to this, if you get Mass Suggestion at level 12 then you arent taking Paladin levels. So how do you get the HP, PRR and MRR to match a Warlock?

[Odysseus2011]

400 SP from an Ioun Stone at level 5. Where are the other 600 coming from?

A sorcerer gets 435 base Spell Points at level 6, not including their Cha modifier. All told you could be looking at over 1,000SP by level 6.

Ioun Stone: 400
Base Mana: 435
Modifier: ~150 (level 6 Sorcerer with a 30-31 Cha, guesstimating the Cha here)
Enhancements: 100
Past Lives: 120

Total: 1,070 (very rough estimate, and probably missing a lot of other bonuses, Ship Buffs?)

[Morroiel]

400 SP from an Ioun Stone at level 5. Where are the other 600 coming from?

Further to this, if you get Mass Suggestion at level 12 then you arent taking Paladin levels. So how do you get the HP, PRR and MRR to match a Warlock?

I never said anything about taking paladin levels... Point to me where warlocks are getting HP, PRR, MRR not accounted for in my average estimate (i.e. not in ES as that tree is garbage)?

[LT218]

400 SP from an Ioun Stone at level 5. Where are the other 600 coming from?

Further to this, if you get Mass Suggestion at level 12 then you arent taking Paladin levels. So how do you get the HP, PRR and MRR to match a Warlock?

Odysseus already answered the question of spell points. Wasn't that hard to figureout the numbers. Maybe going forward, when people tell you that they've done things in game, you could exert a little effort into figuring it out instead of just posting the forum equivalent of flailing your hands in the air and acting helpless? The fact that you couldn't(wouldn't?) answer it yourself says a lot about the validity and accuracy of the rest of your points about Warlocks and Sorcerers I think.

I never said anything about Paladin levels. Someone else may have, but I didn't. I wouldn't gimp my sorcerer like that. I sort of get doing it back in the days when the bonus to saves from Cha + Paladin was uncapped, but definitely not now.

HP, PRR and MRR to match a warlock? Why would you gimp your sorcerer by building it like a tank or even a Warlock? Planning on running face-first into a group of mobs before casting the long-range damage spells? Planning on meleeing the mobs in between the .5s cast times? If you're getting hit that often, you're doing it wrong. Warlocks are a close-range class and tend to take more hits as a result. Sorcerers are not and should not be.

Your posts make it pretty clear you don't know how to build nor run a Sorcerer properly. You seem to think they should be played like Warlocks. Sorcerers are not Warlocks. They should not be built nor played like one.

The one point I will concede is that Warlocks are exceedingly simple to get to a moderate level of proficiency. Other classes take more skill, knowledge and effort to play to the same moderate level of proficiency. However, in the upper levels of efficiency and skill, many classes beat Warlocks. Sadly, most people lack either the skill or motivation to move beyond the moderate level. With that in mind, Warlocks are an easy button for moderate power which is why they are so popular. Other builds and classes are better if one is willing to put in the extra effort though.

[Jasparion]

HP, PRR and MRR to match a warlock? Why would you gimp your sorcerer by building it like a tank or even a Warlock? Planning on running face-first into a group of mobs before casting the long-range damage spells? Planning on meleeing the mobs in between the .5s cast times? If you're getting hit that often, you're doing it wrong. Warlocks are a close-range class and tend to take more hits as a result. Sorcerers are not and should not be.

Your posts make it pretty clear you don't know how to build nor run a Sorcerer properly. You seem to think they should be played like Warlocks. Sorcerers are not Warlocks. They should not be built nor played like one.

Im glad you agree. Because I am not the one who said that its easy for Sorcs to get within 20 HP and 10 PRR / MRR of Warlocks.

[Morroiel]

Im glad you agree. Because I am not the one who said that its easy for Sorcs to get within 20 HP and 10 PRR / MRR of Warlocks.

Analysis of differences between warlock and sorcerer with regards to hp, prr, and mrr

Class Features:
Warlock: d6 hp, paragons aegis (5 mrr at 12,14,16,18,20) - averages over time spent per level to ~4-5 mrr increase, Entropic Ward (5 mrr increase at level 6 if goo) - averages to ~4 mrr, ~3 BAB advantage over sorcerers - see items and misc effects for resultant change to prr, no other features modulate hp, prr, mrr

Sorcerer: d4 hp, no other factors modulate hp, prr, mrr

Net Result: 2*(Level) = ~18-22 hp gain by being warlock depending on how average is taken, ~8-9 mrr increase by being warlock.

Feats:
Sorcerer(optimal): 1: maximize, 3: empower, 6: completionist, 9: wiz pl, 12: heighten, 15: enlarge, 18: spell focus (evo, conj, enchant, or necro)
Warlock(optimal): 1: quicken, 3: completionist, 6: wiz pl, 9: enlarge, 12: maximize, 15: heighten, 18: spell focus necro
*order of feats taken may very but for the most part this is what I have found to be optimal for the heroic reaper grind

Net Difference from Feats - sorcerer takes empower vs warlock taking quicken; zero difference in hp, prr, mrr

Enhancements:
Only thing that modulates hp in the "good" warlock trees (tainted scholar and souleater) are: blood component lvl 18 core in tainted scholar which is -25 hp, which may or not be taken depending on how many racial AP you have.
There are no options to modulate prr or mrr in tainted scholar or souleater.

Only thing that modulates hp in main sorcerer trees (acid/fire) is the capstone, which is negated for heroic comparisons as you immediately tr.
Most sorcerers will be forced to take eldritch knight with a 10 dip for light armor proficiency and wand and scroll mastery, this may or not result in prr and hp (toughness T1 and/or shield T2): optimally it will result in neither though.

Net Result: Optimally neither build takes anything that modulates their hp except warlock taking blood component at level 18, which may or may not be the case. So either they break even or warlock is down 25 hp at level 18.

Items and Misc Effects:

Since both toons are charisma casters who will use light armor (warlock gets this ~4-5 levels sooner but during this time the BAB conferring prr is minimal and mrr isn't possible to cap: therefore on average warlock has a slight advantage due to having access to LA sooner, but this results in an avg of <1 prr advantage if you average over total time spent at each level.

As mentioned in the class features part: sorcerers are at an avg of 2-3 BAB off warlock, meaning that warlock does indeed have a 2-3 prr advantage from wearing light armor due to this BAB. If both parties use divine power clickies or other sources of full BAB (besides tensors as its not viable in reaper due to the cd increase).

Net Result: Warlocks are at ~3 prr advantage due to BAB, they however are not at any advantage from items, gear, etc. over sorcerer with respect to hp or mrr.

Conclusion:
Warlocks are up from sorcerer by ~18-22 hp, ~8-9 mrr, and ~3 prr, making my statement incorrect - I conferred an even higher advantage to prr than I should have. You are free to point out if I missed something - otherwise stop arguing about things you clearly don't know anything about.

PS: If your only complaint stems from the fact that I didn't include enlightened spirit, you have no business discussing warlock - this is BY FAR the weakest of the 3 trees. Additionally a sorcerer could theoretically gimp himself too to obtain extra hp, prr, mrr from utilizing racial, harper, and eldritch knight.

[LT218]

Im glad you agree. Because I am not the one who said that its easy for Sorcs to get within 20 HP and 10 PRR / MRR of Warlocks.

Your reading comprehension is as lacking as your knowledge of sorcerers.

[zehnvhex]

I think my favorite part of this discussion is that for any of it to matter you have to get hit. And if you're getting hit in DDO as a ranged class, "You're doing it wrong."™ Rangers have even more HP then either class and access to evasion. How is that relevant? It isn't. Step 1, don't get hit.

Anyways...

I'd say a much more meaningful discussion is how there's no real synergy between sorcerer trees. One of the nice things about warlock that keeps them competitive with sorcerers (at least until epic levels where sorc's start to obliterate warlocks) is that SE/TS do compliment each other quite nicely. On top of that you're never really wrong in taking more warlock levels. The best warlock builds are going to be pure ones.

By contrast to really get the most out of sorcerer you have to do something that isn't exactly intuitive and....not go too ham on sorcerer enhancements/levels. You're going to want those 2 levels of FvS at the very least, and 6 levels of wizard is a very attractive option as well since you can pick up a ton of temp sp, spell crit, palemaster immunities, AS, etc...etc...

When it comes right down to it, a Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi sorcerer. You give up some of the damage and self sustain from being a sorc for the advantage of being able to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory. Considering just how bad a lot of people are at this game (see the aforementioned discussion about warlock vs. sorc defenses like they even ~matter~) it does make Warlock the more attractive option.

I mean I'm guilty of it as well. If someone asks me for a caster build it's much easier to just say "Warlock, go TS/SE and pick anything that looks like it'll make you you do more gooder" then it is to explain the nuances behind a tri-spec sorcerer build.

[Wipey]

Man, aren't you sorcerer experts.
Yet you all play tardlocks.

[phillymiket]

I can't speak to ideal sorc play vs warlocks.
But I'm pretty sure for most of the warlocks you'd see bopping around in the marketplace, this is the reason.

left click and yolo blast your way to victory.

Edit - **segue to an unrelated post**

Yet you all play tardlocks.

The only way to dismantle a tardlock is with a sonic screwdriver.

[SpartanKiller13]

Feats:
...Warlock(optimal): 1: quicken...

PS: If your only complaint stems from the fact that I didn't include enlightened spirit, you have no business discussing warlock - this is BY FAR the weakest of the 3 trees. Additionally a sorcerer could theoretically gimp himself too to obtain extra hp, prr, mrr from utilizing racial, harper, and eldritch knight.

Why do you take Quicken at 1? I'm not exactly an expert, but there are a lot of easily available SLAs that benefit a lot from Maximize early on?

Also, ES is my favorite tree because it almost plays like a melee and I love melee (also I find the eldritch pew-pew to be exceptionally clunky). When I'm playing Sorc I tend towards the close-range (Fire Savant SLA's are fantastic). ES might be the worst, but it's strong enough that it's fine. This isn't Cleric, where there's 2 good things in the Warpriest tree, the ES tree has a lot of nice stuff even if you don't think it's good. Also it's a lot more survivable if you're new or (like me) enjoy holding the W button the entire quest.

When it comes right down to it, a Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi sorcerer. You give up some of the damage and self sustain from being a sorc for the advantage of being able to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.

This is like my favorite quote. Although if you go ES you have better self-sustain but generally speaking even worse damage. Even better you don't even have to hold down left click! Just blast every few seconds (and bind those to mouse 3/4 lol).

[zehnvhex]

Yes, I play warlock. I also play fighter, monk, rogue, artificer, cleric, druid, sorcerer, favored soul, ranger, barbarian, paladin, bard and wizard (and various multi-class versions of these). My first real interaction with multiplayer gaming was TF quake mod and I quickly found that I was a better player overall if I didn't limit myself to 'maining' a single class in these sorts of games. It also taught me the value of learning how to circle strafe which is something I find a lot of people simply don't do in DDO which I find baffling considering how powerful it is.