How can we overcome resistance to making the game harder?

[Axeyu]

It is a risk vs rewards thing. People mash elite because they can steamroll it with their builds and gear, then when they hit epics, they know they cannot validate the risk for the reward, so they do epic hard instead and only roll epic elite when they know they can steamroll it.

Yeah that was exactly my point. People are not playing only elite because they are "too entrenched", it's just because of the good reward for low risk. Otherwise people would play only elite in epics aswell, or atleast vent all that "anger and annoyance" of not being able to do so. But that is not what we see.

[Vargouille]

Works for me, though the loot should be designed for the progression of the new difficulty, not a concern of the lower level difficulties.

This is not likely to be the case. A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power. The power was inside you all along!

If new loot is balanced for defeating (Elite+++), just as much as current loot is balanced for defeating Elite, then we haven't really gained actual difficulty, just split players across more difficulties and added more tiers of loot. The goal for a new difficulty is to actually be harder for the players, not just the current characters. Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

Collectively, the best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge, so we'll have to leave some room for that!

[Axeyu]

But progression towards WHAT? That's the real question here. If you can beat quests on the hardest difficulty, what are you progressing to? What is getting special, uber-powerful items going to do aside from making the quests even easier?

What is the actual point of the "progression"? This is the elephant in the room.

Progression is the point.

[Chai]

But progression towards WHAT? That's the real question here. If you can beat quests on the hardest difficulty, what are you progressing to? What is getting special, uber-powerful items going to do aside from making the quests even easier?

What is the actual point of the "progression"? This is the elephant in the room.

Avoiding power creep, which is what caused the current state of the game where the expectation is anyone can beat the toughest difficulty.

character power increase + content difficulty increase = progression.

character power increase + content difficulty stagnation = power creep.

This is not the elephant in the room, as it is a well understood concept in the MMO industry. Best way to handle it is sometimes debated, but the concept itself isn't really questioned and hasn't been for a long time.

A good example of when DDO experienced progression. MOTU. Loot got better, but the content got more difficult. Those quests were tough on EE when that was first released.

A good example of when DDO experienced power creep. TR system. We keep getting better and better gear/enhancement lines etc, but run the same 5-9 year old content.

[Xenich]

What we really need is a difficulty like the old epic that was only one difficulty and the loot or reward to be worth the time and effort.

Put an 18 hour timer on it with no bypass for completion make it only available to capped chars and have zero favor attached to it but you could make the xp high to encourage people to run these to max out ed's for people who don't enjoy the tr/etr train mythic augments that bring loot up to level cap would be a reason to farm

Yep, I keep saying this, but with LONGER fights. Make the encounters last longer. Make trash fights where the group is having to really stay on their toes and there is constant worry that other NPCs will hear the fighting and come running. Do random encounter rolls that spawn pathing bosses, groups, etc.... Even have conditions where there is a delayed reaction to a parties failure, a runner from a distance sees and runs to inform someone who then puts together an ambush in a specific area when the party comes in. I mean, really make this an involved dungeon with lots of chances for failure conditions that change the dungeon, change the options and even the main objective. Make it to where people are seriously using the skills (bluff, diplo, intimidate, etc...) because they must to survive. Make spells outside of DPS focus useful. Make silencing that caster paramount or things or going to hell in a hand basket. When a fight ends, people should be going "wow... that was amazing!!! We almost lost it there several times, unbelievable!" Make it where if people don't "Dungeon Crawl" (you know the old thing we used to do in D&D, then it means instant death. You remember how being stupid (rushing in without planning, Rogue running off to loot, etc...) in a dungeon in PnP could turn the whole adventure on its head? That would be cool, but then I doubt that would ever happen. /shrug

[Qaliya]

This is not likely to be the case. A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power. The power was inside you all along!

Exactly, and thank you.

Progression is the point.

But again, to what? If you can beat everything on the most difficult setting, what is the point of grinding on a lower setting to "progress"?

[Steve_Howe]

This is not likely to be the case. A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power. The power was inside you all along!

If new loot is balanced for defeating (Elite+++), just as much as current loot is balanced for defeating Elite, then we haven't really gained actual difficulty, just split players across more difficulties and added more tiers of loot. The goal for a new difficulty is to actually be harder for the players, not just the current characters. Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

Collectively, the best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge, so we'll have to leave some room for that!

But there must be some kind of incentive/reason to run the new difficulty. It doesn't have to be more EXP or better loot. It can be a title or some other official recognition. Maybe it's a glow surrounding a toon that's completed more than half the quests on Reaper difficulty or maybe it's a halo for divines. It could also be a place on some sort of "leaderboard" where points are given for completing a Reaper level quest. Completion times and lack of deaths could be factored in to how many points are awarded.

[Xenich]

Funny, when I peruse this board I rarely ever see "mainstreamers throwing tantrums". I do see a lot of power-gamers complaining and making demands, though.

Yeah, like...

Powergamer: "The game is a bit too easy, can we get a more difficult setting with appropriate risk/reward"

Mainstreamer: "You can have a difficulty, but no rewards because we then feel obligated to run those more difficult dungeons because we want the loot they have and we don't want more difficulty because we think that isn't fun"

Yeah, I see a lot of that.

[rcmcneil]

The party XP event last weekend & the Bravery Bonus pause ability are good first steps. Many I've been talking to on Orien have the opinion that a party-sized XP bonus should be permanent to encourage grouping. However, putting resources into coming up with yet another difficulty is not what is needed right now.

A game is supposed to be both a challenge & fun, & worth investing time & money into. Adding in yet another top-end difficulty concentrates development resources on pleasing such a proportionately small, but vocal minority, does not help those who are just here for fun. Those at the top end will complete any new content within days of its release. This is to be expected, but not to cater to exclusively if long-term viability is the goal.

I would much prefer to see game improvement through character development (classes/trees/destinies) & content, rather than trying to disrupt current development with yet another thing that stratifies the player base further.

[Axeyu]

This is not likely to be the case. A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power. The power was inside you all along!

If new loot is balanced for defeating (Elite+++), just as much as current loot is balanced for defeating Elite, then we haven't really gained actual difficulty, just split players across more difficulties and added more tiers of loot. The goal for a new difficulty is to actually be harder for the players, not just the current characters. Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

Collectively, the best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge, so we'll have to leave some room for that!

A new difficulty without proper reward would be largely ignored just as much as elite has been ignored when that didn't have proper reward (the best example is Shroud before the extra chests were added).
You would still have gained actual difficulty simply from the fact that the new setting would be balanced around Armor Up and and all the other character buffs. Slightly better loot is insignificant compared to that.
Just look at the newest quests. They are not too easy on EE. People in pugs die like flies in EE ToEE, Amrath and even necro.

The difficulty crisis in DDO is exagerated. The notion that the game has become too easy is mainly based on misconceptions:

1. People are playing "update X" quests with "post update X" characters and finding it too easy. Yeah, there have been some significant increases in character power lately and that will obviously make old content easier. But that does not mean that there is a systematic problem with the difficulty level. The quests that are tuned to your character are not too easy.

2. People are comparing soloing now to soloing before dungeon scaling. Ofcourse it's gonna be easier to solo if the quest scales down. Again, that does not mean there's a systematic problem with the difficulty level. If you don't like scaling that's a different issue. The content used to be balanced for and played with groups. You can't ignore that if you compare the metagame back in the day with the metagame now. It's too simple to just conclude that the game is easier now because soloing is easier. As long as we have dungeon scaling that correlation really means nothing.

3. The playerbase consist of veterans instead of new players. Do not underestimate this. Way back on the EU servers we also had this veteran playerbase. When we merged to the US servers and there was a huge influx of new players the difficulty of pugging raids and end game quests dramatically increased.
Player skill and experience matters so much in DDO. When you have learned a hundred small details that each makes the game slightly easier by just having played the game for a large amount of time then and when you go out of your way to learn the content and maximize your characters ofcourse it's gonna be easier.
That is just the nature of the game. The only reasonable way to change this without completely shutting out newer players is to make the gameplay predictable and formulaic, which is the complete opposite of why I think DDO is great in the first place.


If one was to make the endgame harder though, the best way would be to nerf destinies. They add lots of power creep for very little benefit, they could easily be smaller bonuses and still be just as interesting. It's better to have the majority of the character power come from the class as that creates diversity. As it is now every class can deal good damage in LD, tank well in DC etc. They are too build defining.?

If the difficulty pre-endgame needs to be increased then just buff elite to be balanced around all the new character power we have gotten. A whole new difficulty setting is not needed. People are willing to play below elite setting, that is made clear by the fact that they are playing normal/hard as soon as they reach 20 (epics) and the elite difficulty greatly increases.

[Qaliya]

It could also be a place on some sort of "leaderboard" where points are given for completing a Reaper level quest. Completion times and lack of deaths could be factored in to how many points are awarded.

This is an excellent idea.

One thing that is really missing in this game is any sort of real inter-player competition, which is usually what MMOs do to keep people involved and interested once they have basically "beaten" PvE. It would be relatively easy to implement and would be a nice way to show who's the best. Many other games use this type of system.

Mainstreamer: "You can have a difficulty, but no rewards because we then feel obligated to run those more difficult dungeons because we want the loot they have and we don't want more difficulty because we think that isn't fun"

Sorry, strawmen don't count.

I'd happily play a harder setting, especially at the lower levels where I currently find elite too easy, just to make the game more interesting and fun. But I guess I'm strange that way, I actually play the game because I enjoy it and not to "get stuff".

[axel15810]

This is not likely to be the case. A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power. The power was inside you all along!

If new loot is balanced for defeating (Elite+++), just as much as current loot is balanced for defeating Elite, then we haven't really gained actual difficulty, just split players across more difficulties and added more tiers of loot. The goal for a new difficulty is to actually be harder for the players, not just the current characters. Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

Collectively, the best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge, so we'll have to leave some room for that!

That's fine if you don't want to do new loot but you have to incentivize it somehow. There has to be something useful players actually want. If you can't do that through new loot you need to atleast for example throw in some stuff like increased remnant drops, increased named loot chance and chances for some store items (can be a very low drop rate so it doesn't significantly impact sales). And I really want to see a super low drop rate on something amazing like a heart of wood.

There has to be something special to incentivize this difficulty. If there's nothing exclusive to this content players won't run it. The key is to make the unique rewards from this content not feel required so everyone isn't compelled to run it. But you definitely have to put something there ot incentivize it. Gotta find that middle ground.

If you create this difficulty with the plan of incentivizing it only through bragging rights I am extremely confident in saying it will not create much player interest. Challenge with no reward just won't work. The rewards don't have to be power creep, but they need to be something players actually want.

[BigErkyKid]

Well, some pathing changes can help down the road with more complex AI implementations .

Why bother if we are happy farming a cheaper and easier game? I keep saying it is not for us to be understanding of Warner Bross in the quality they can deliver. We are paying for it, we are not their parents...

[Vargouille]

To be clear, we're not saying a higher difficulty shouldn't have incentives. But it should not necessarily be power, especially power you otherwise cannot get. Even additional XP might be OK, because that's not additional power, it's just time saving (potentially). (extra-beyond-normal-disclaimer: This isn't designed yet and things I'm saying are wild crazy thoughts and not things like promises in fact forget you read this please go self-mind-wipe thanks.)

[Gauthaag]

This is not likely to be the case. A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power. The power was inside you all along!

If new loot is balanced for defeating (Elite+++), just as much as current loot is balanced for defeating Elite, then we haven't really gained actual difficulty, just split players across more difficulties and added more tiers of loot. The goal for a new difficulty is to actually be harder for the players, not just the current characters. Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

Collectively, the best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge, so we'll have to leave some room for that!

thanks, that's kind of answer I was looking for

[Steve_Howe]

To be clear, we're not saying a higher difficulty shouldn't have incentives. But it should not necessarily be power, especially power you otherwise cannot get. Even additional XP might be OK, because that's not additional power, it's just time saving (potentially). (extra-beyond-normal-disclaimer: This isn't designed yet and things I'm saying are wild crazy thoughts and not things like promises in fact forget you read this please go self-mind-wipe thanks.)

Agreed.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5675785

[Axeyu]

But again, to what? If you can beat everything on the most difficult setting, what is the point of grinding on a lower setting to "progress"?

Progression is the point. The whole genre is based on progression.

You seem to be denying reality. Do people not run normal raids instead of even trying hard or elite when there is no incentive to run anything but normal?

[Chai]

Sorry, strawmen don't count.

I'd happily play a harder setting, especially at the lower levels where I currently find elite too easy, just to make the game more interesting and fun. But I guess I'm strange that way, I actually play the game because I enjoy it and not to "get stuff".

The premise that people aren't really asking for more difficulty but only care about better rewards is also a strawman. If they don't count, then its time for those who repeat this argument to refrain. Time to start addressing the actual premise of higher difficulty. When people say the want more challenge that's the position to address, more challenge.

[Qhualor]

For this reason if we added further difficulty to the game we would do so in a manner that players could opt in to that new difficulty rather than trying to re-educate players that Elite was harder. The playstyle is probably too entrenched at this point that adding more difficulty to Elite and trying to get players to downshift difficulties would likely not provide enough benefit to the game to warrant the anger and annoyance from players that enjoy their current playing habits.

Sev~

as much as I want the highest difficulty to be more challenging now, I would rather wait until cap goes to 30, got the "end game" scene more established and the classes finished with their pass. in the meantime, I just want to see ideas and off the top of the head thoughts on increasing challenge knowing they wont be set in stone just yet. doing anything before any of those 3 things are put in place will result in more changes which could result in having to rebalance this higher difficulty more times than it would need to find the sweet spot and probably pushing off other projects to finish something else.

im not convinced still its a good idea to create a brand new difficulty setting, but I am willing to listen.

[Qhualor]

Agreed.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5675785

we already have this for that

https://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisp...4-Achievements