Changes Focused on Boosting Game Performance

[CeltEireson]

I think you do not understand the issue here. People are not worried about damage procs, but things like balanced attacks, nerve venom, fetters, legendary dust, legendary ice, twining hemlock, and probably others I forgot. Abilites that has a chance to proc on hit, that are not damage, but central to some builds and playstyles. Throwers are very popular, they are going to be nuked from orbit by these changes as they rely on so many of these abilities.

Also not sure how a lot of the special strikes/shots currently work (the ones with effects other than pure damage like headshot blinding) but pretty sure many of them get a second chance of either proccing or the mob failing a save if you get a doublestrike. So for all those they can be half as effective as now if you have 100% doubleshot, even less effective if you have more doubleshot - but it varies a lot.

I'm more worried about the increases to archers focus counter - theyre definitely substantially down compared to live and there's a lot of ranged power in improved archers focus IF you can keep the stacks going which is going to be a lot harder unless they make changes to it.

[kpak01]

An important thing to note when going into this is that when an effects queue happens, it does not only affect your instance, but every other instance on the server that your instance is being processed by. Server in this case does not refer to world, such as Ghallanda or Sarlona or Wayfinder, but the actual machines that process DDO and share the load of each instance between them.

So that means people using lots of weapons effects in some raid are what's causing the entire public Marketplace instance to lag out? And combining weapon multi-hits & nerfing their procs will actually improve that?

If so, sign me up. We've always had lag in certain quests at certain specific events. But the random lag spikes, including in public instances and unrelated to what's going on where my character actually is, for the last year and a half has been ridiculous.

[Aelonwy]

I really dont care how this change will affect build A or build B because today all builds are getting reaped by lag so if you think it will eradicate the enormous lag we have today put it up in a patch tomorrow and we will adapt our builds

The thing is they've removed lots of unique, fun things in the past claiming it would reduce lag and over the years despite those changes lag has only gotten worse and worse and worse. The only time I can remember lag being worse then it is right now, was immediately after the server move. That was beyond awful.

So yeah my confidence in the game is at an all-time low and my trust that they will fix/improve whatever builds and playstyles this change will trash isn't much above it. I want to be hopeful, I want to believe that the characters I have that depend on procs for defense and CC will eventually still be reasonably fun to play but experience has taught me... not to be optimistic.

So what happens if/when they "think it will eradicate the enormous lag" but it doesn't? I mean seriously? What if this doesn't have any noticeable affect on lag? But a bunch of builds are negatively affected? Do you think they'd undo it? Because I don't.

I played around Lammania for awhile yesterday, I'm going to transfer my most proc dependent character and do some quests later if there is still time but my experiences yesterday say Lammania is just as laggy as the regular server if not more so. Is this change only going to affect raid lag? Because not all of us raid much.

I'm not trying to be mean, I just feel dispirited about these changes.

[FengXian]

The thing is they've removed lots of unique, fun things in the past claiming it would reduce lag and over the years despite those changes lag has only gotten worse and worse and worse. The only time I can remember lag being worse then it is right now, was immediately after the server move. That was beyond awful.

So yeah my confidence in the game is at an all-time low and my trust that they will fix/improve whatever builds and playstyles this change will trash isn't much above it. I want to be hopeful, I want to believe that the characters I have that depend on procs for defense and CC will eventually still be reasonably fun to play but experience has taught me... not to be optimistic.

So what happens if/when they "think it will eradicate the enormous lag" but it doesn't? I mean seriously? What if this doesn't have any noticeable affect on lag? But a bunch of builds are negatively affected? Do you think they'd undo it? Because I don't.

I played around Lammania for awhile yesterday, I'm going to transfer my most proc dependent character and do some quests later if there is still time but my experiences yesterday say Lammania is just as laggy as the regular server if not more so. Is this change only going to affect raid lag? Because not all of us raid much.

I'm not trying to be mean, I just feel dispirited about these changes.

This seems to be an insanely ambitious undertaking. Even if it goes right there will be many negative consequences, the changes are huge. Vorpal, Adrenaline recharge, CC, ki generation, aggro management (maybe some of these have been answered, haven't read it all).

Best of luck devs, I'll be very cautious with my DDO money for about half a year

[Zoveride]

I really dont understand how you think this is a nerf to melee/ranged. Like, it's a slight nerf to CC/InstantKill on trash mob, which die in 2 hits anyway so... does it really matter?
Like, most endgame weapons dont even have those kind of effects, and some other still had an internal cooldown which made them not work on doublestrike anyway.

The only ones getting the short hand of the stick that I see are paralizing arrow's AA, and maybe some thrower build but.. Like, among endgame shruiken, the only affected one in Salazar twinning hemlock. All the other only have damage procs, which all get multiplied, so..

PS for all those complaining about small chance procs: it will proc less often? Yes. But it will do multiplied damage. More spiky, sure, but same damage overtime

Let me help you understand. It is not about getting 2 procs of a non-damaging effect on a doublestrike, but having 2 chances that the effect will actually proc at all. Since the 2nd attack in the double strike (or 2nd AND 3rd in a doubleshot) aren't counted, players are losing 50%/77% chance to have their effects activated. (50% is not a SLIGHT NERF)
Also, there is no multiplied damage on NON-DAMAGE effects because...well there is no damage to begin with...
Hopefully that clears up why people aren't happy about this nerf and why it isn't a SLIGHT nerf as you claim.

[ironmaiden-br]

6421858[/URL]]The thing is they've removed lots of unique, fun things in the past claiming it would reduce lag and over the years despite those changes lag has only gotten worse and worse and worse. The only time I can remember lag being worse then it is right now, was immediately after the server move. That was beyond awful.

So yeah my confidence in the game is at an all-time low and my trust that they will fix/improve whatever builds and playstyles this change will trash isn't much above it. I want to be hopeful, I want to believe that the characters I have that depend on procs for defense and CC will eventually still be reasonably fun to play but experience has taught me... not to be optimistic.

So what happens if/when they "think it will eradicate the enormous lag" but it doesn't? I mean seriously? What if this doesn't have any noticeable affect on lag? But a bunch of builds are negatively affected? Do you think they'd undo it? Because I don't.

I played around Lammania for awhile yesterday, I'm going to transfer my most proc dependent character and do some quests later if there is still time but my experiences yesterday say Lammania is just as laggy as the regular server if not more so. Is this change only going to affect raid lag? Because not all of us raid much.

I'm not trying to be mean, I just feel dispirited about these changes.

100% agree with your points years ago Was EIN that was generating lag ssg nerfed and lag still there .

My point is the game is Simply unplayable as it is today .. attacks dont land... heals and spells are not cast due lag. Almost all quest you do you Get at least one full freeze .. yesterday 2 died on hc due lag jumping the electric water in black & blue on a lag spike
Something effective has to be done fast, even if screw some or most builds cause today no build is playable

this is imo the worst time ever in DDO game performance

[dkyle]

OK, so proc rates can't increase with doublestrike/shot. Is there any reason we can't have:

1. Multiple stacks on stackable procs/abilities
2. Multiple saves required on procs/abilities with saves

This is still a nerf to weapon-based CC, but at least it would be something.

[Kerria]

I would gladly loose some of the procs to end the terrible lag atm. I do hope down the road you can make up for nerve venom and any other procs impacted in other ways. But stopping the game killing lag has to be first on the list. New players and old will not keep coming back when you keep dying to lag spikes. Good start IMHO.

[Dragavon]

The thing is they've removed lots of unique, fun things in the past claiming it would reduce lag and over the years despite those changes lag has only gotten worse and worse and worse. The only time I can remember lag being worse then it is right now, was immediately after the server move. That was beyond awful.

Unfortunately this is spot on.

[Malex]

[/U][/B]
Let me help you understand. It is not about getting 2 procs of a non-damaging effect on a doublestrike, but having 2 chances that the effect will actually proc at all. Since the 2nd attack in the double strike (or 2nd AND 3rd in a doubleshot) aren't counted, players are losing 50%/77% chance to have their effects activated. (50% is not a SLIGHT NERF)
Also, there is no multiplied damage on NON-DAMAGE effects because...well there is no damage to begin with...
Hopefully that clears up why people aren't happy about this nerf and why it isn't a SLIGHT nerf as you claim.

There are not many of those effect, if you read what I've written at all.
Name one non-damaging proc which is:
1- Relevant (instant kills are not, CCs slightly relevant since are not reliable, and in both cases mobs die faster than it takes for them to proc)
2- Actually on endgame weapons
3- Actually used (if you come up with a kama having relevant effect...)
4- Dont have very high proc-chance, duration, etc (like... all Legendary Greensteel bonus effects). These literally stack up in 3 seconds even without doublestrike, if you gave it a try.
5- Make/break the build

[neain2008]

Hopped over to lamania with my main who is a 20 ranger dagger thrower at level 20. Here is my feedback.
I went to 'a small problem' as that's become the defacto quest that I use to test my builds once I hit 20 and so I know my benchmarks there. TLDR: less nerve venom, any lag/physics fails became instantly noticeable, but other than that felt about the same.

having larger numbers instead of a million tiny ones made it far easier to see how much damage I was actually doing.
It was easier to see the effect of swapping out my weapons between a barovian dagger and a borderlands ethereal dagger. (mostly just a 1-1.5 W change)

The negative is that I could now feel each and every tiny lag spike/physics fail as instead of a column of numbers where a few missed attacks (due to lag or not pointing in exactly the right direction) get absorbed into the column without me seeing it. Now when everything is working correctly my column of numbers is spaced out and assuming nothing drastic changes should all be about the same distance from each other. It is now easy to tell when things are having issues because they wont be the same space from each other.

I am hopeful that this change will also make a few more niche things useful, such as the vampirisms that have an internal cooldown now get multiplied by the hits that they woulda gotten without the cooldown.

Hope the change helps with lag as advertised.

[Malex]

I think you do not understand the issue here. People are not worried about damage procs, but things like balanced attacks, nerve venom, fetters, legendary dust, legendary ice, twining hemlock, and probably others I forgot. Abilites that has a chance to proc on hit, that are not damage, but central to some builds and playstyles. Throwers are very popular, they are going to be nuked from orbit by these changes as they rely on so many of these abilities.

An example of faulty reasoning though:
Legendary Dust
Attacks and offensive spells have a 50% chance to reduce enemy PRR and Positive Healing Amplification. This penalty stacks. [-7 PRR and -20 hamp per stack, maximum stack 5, hence -35 PRR and -100 hamp at full stack. 11 seconds duration each stack]

Which means, considering attack speed (and a probable internal cooldown), you stack it up at about the same rate, maybe you lose 1 second. It's a 50% chance with a maximum of 5 stacks...


I agree that nerve venom, balanced attack and twining hemlock (and some others) take the short end of the stick, but they are fewer than you'd think, because you really should count most of legendary greensteel debuffs. Even Fetters which AFAIK is the same as legendary vacuum so a 30% for 2-4 stacks, considering attack speed, you lose around 2-3 more seconds to get to full stacks.
All assuming you are solo, if in a group you reach max stack immediatly anyway.

It's a nerf? yep, but not so big if you actually play it and not only go by math

[jetster11]

I assume this impact would cause something like Archers focus to proc much more slowly also. Seems like a whole class of builds which rely on speed of the hit are getting a possible 50% nerf. Seems like the developers need to really step back and consider such an impact on entire categories of player characters that are in no way exploiting things but are making use of their hard earned gear acquired over years of play. They seem to be mostly concerned about keeping DPS roughly the same while not addressing (or at least conveying to the playing population) what impact this will have to proc type effects and how they will compensate across the board for such these changes may have.

Or perhaps I have missed this developer discussion thread.

[salmag]

Are Cleave and Great Cleave affected by this?

One would think so.

[Discpsycho]

There are not many of those effect, if you read what I've written at all.
Name one non-damaging proc which is:
1- Relevant (instant kills are not, CCs slightly relevant since are not reliable, and in both cases mobs die faster than it takes for them to proc)
2- Actually on endgame weapons
3- Actually used (if you come up with a kama having relevant effect...)
4- Dont have very high proc-chance, duration, etc (like... all Legendary Greensteel bonus effects). These literally stack up in 3 seconds even without doublestrike, if you gave it a try.
5- Make/break the build

Executioner's Shot/Strike from Shadowdancer. A 35% chance on-hit is large, but it's got a cooldown, and I disagree that as an instakill it's not relevant. There's a huge difference between 1 proc (35%) and 4 procs (1-0.65^4, or 82%). That's an enormous difference for Assassins, Artificers (repeaters), some flavors of Thrower (eg, Monk). That ability alone is enough rationale to choose Shadowdancer as one of those builds

[Carpone]

Tempest has been continuously edged out since August 2019 changes. With gutting the capstone, RIP. Not that I personally care. Assassin is where it's at for TWF. It's just a shame to have one less viable option for TWF, especially when Tempest used to be a powerhouse.

[thunir]

FWIW your Adrenaline damage roughly doubles in SWF/THF (since you now get Adrenaline on both). Also Unbridled Fury gets a huge buff here (at least AFAICT), as it doesn't care about recharging but gives you double the current damage for bosses etc.

Yea OK

It in the current model on 20 strikes I have 4 average vorpal. On the proposed model we now have only 2. Hence our opportunity to generate Adrenalin is diminished 50% or in other words perfect single weapon fighting and blood bath were just cut in half so far as opportunity is concerned. This is assuming you have 100% double strike. Which almost everyone does.

I would like to know how the Dev’s plan on handling this.

[GroundhogDay]

An example of faulty reasoning though:
Legendary Dust
Attacks and offensive spells have a 50% chance to reduce enemy PRR and Positive Healing Amplification. This penalty stacks. [-7 PRR and -20 hamp per stack, maximum stack 5, hence -35 PRR and -100 hamp at full stack. 11 seconds duration each stack]

Which means, considering attack speed (and a probable internal cooldown), you stack it up at about the same rate, maybe you lose 1 second. It's a 50% chance with a maximum of 5 stacks...


I agree that nerve venom, balanced attack and twining hemlock (and some others) take the short end of the stick, but they are fewer than you'd think, because you really should count most of legendary greensteel debuffs. Even Fetters which AFAIK is the same as legendary vacuum so a 30% for 2-4 stacks, considering attack speed, you lose around 2-3 more seconds to get to full stacks.
All assuming you are solo, if in a group you reach max stack immediatly anyway.

It's a nerf? yep, but not so big if you actually play it and not only go by math

What about dmg to stats, mark of death, mrr debuffs, vampirism, quelling strikes, neg lvls from night revel augments and occasionally blood is life? Because, you know, these are all procs i use on my build in one single attack from only my main weapon that now will not proc with the same frequency while i solo. Would you like to tell me how i'm wrong to get mad that i'm getting nerfed? Would you like to shield the "devs" a little more? Or could we just leave it saying that you like it and should stop telling people how they should think? Go on, play your game, let other people do the same.

[SpartanKiller13]

Tempest has been continuously edged out since August 2019 changes. With gutting the capstone, RIP. Not that I personally care. Assassin is where it's at for TWF. It's just a shame to have one less viable option for TWF, especially when Tempest used to be a powerhouse.

Why does everyone assume they'll gut Tempest capstone (and nerf PTWF etc) without adding something to make up for that?

Literally everyone worried about existing offhand DS boosts in this thread is assuming they've forgotten about those. There's like 1/4 of the posts on this thread on that subject, I guarantee the devs have read at least one of those even if they forgot about offhand DS enhancements as they replaced it.

By all means, if it hits live and there's no buff for Dervish etc, raise your pitchforks (and I'll join you). But Lama is about testing, and literally never includes all the stuff that goes live.

Yea OK

It in the current model on 20 strikes I have 4 opportunities to vorpal. On the proposed model we now have only 2. Hence our opportunity to generate Adrenalin is diminished 50% or in other words perfect single weapon fighting and blood bath were just cut in half so far as opportunity is concerned. This is assuming you have 100% double strike. Which almost everyone does.

I would like to know how the Dev’s plan on handling this.

If you have half as many uses of Adrenaline that each deal twice the damage, it averages to similar DPS. Better up-front DPS (recharge rate doesn't matter when you have 7 charges), better for nuking priority targets (double damage), better epic moment (since you get the same amount of uses but each deals twice the damage), worse general CC (half the recharge), worse overkill (if you're already oneshotting more damage is pointless).

If it takes 4 Adrenalines to kill a redname currently, when this hits live you can kill them with 2 Adrenalines. That's a huge buff, even if it takes twice as long to get those charges back.

Yes, if you use Adrenaline on cooldown for the CC it's a nerf. But if you do anything else it's easy to reserve charges for important enemies (like champs, reapers, rednames) and if you have 2 charges available a slower recharge rate is functionally a non-issue for a given fight (it takes 10 seconds before you could even use a hypothetical 3rd charge, and you can easily get 1 vorpal hit in 10 seconds with a 19-20 Vorpal given SWF/THF in FotW - let alone factoring Strikethrough and SWF's AS bonus).

If you're just standing against a raid boss mashing the Adrenaline button, compare:

Givens: 86 attacks/minute (1.43/second), 19-20 Vorpal (PSWF or FotW THF), 100% Doublestrike, 5s cooldown for Adrenaline - SWF numbers are even further out, but I'll use THF today.

Live:
1.43x5x2 = 14.3 viable hits/5s
14.3/10 = 1.43 Vorpals = Adrenalines recharged/5s

Lama:
1.43x5 = 7.15 viable hits/5s
7.15/10 = 0.715 Vorpals = Double-Damage Adrenalines recharged/5s

Now here's the fun part: since you can't use >1 Adrenaline every 5 seconds, on Live you're currently wasting 0.43 Adrenalines every 5 seconds. On Lama, you won't be recharging as fast as you use them - but they deal double damage.

So here's the actual end result:
Live: 1 Adrenaline recharged/5s (0.43 Adrenalines wasted)
Lama: 0.715 Adrenaline recharged/5s, x2 for Doublestrike = 1.43 Live-Adrenalines worth

So it's actually a ~40% buff whenever you're attacking & using Adrenaline on cooldown. Whenever you hit more than once/second it's a DPS buff.

Also Unbridled Fury gets a ~90% buff (given you'd normally Doublestrike at base damage and now that Doublestrike hit gets Adrenaline multiplier).

[IBCrabin]

when going into this is that when an effects queue happens, it does not only affect your instance, but every other instance on the server that your instance is being processed by. Server in this case does not refer to world, such as Ghallanda or Sarlona or Wayfinder, but the actual machines that process DDO and share the load of each instance between them.

I am curious, have the Dev tried disabling reaper tree completely as a test?