Changes Focused on Boosting Game Performance

[Epicsoul]

As you may or may not know, several bows are getting nerfed with this "bow pass". Specifically their crit range is being nerfed. What is being done to make up for that? Nothing.

Does the expand threat from PBS get modified by IC: Range?

IBCrabin, you missed my point. Zoveride said "nothing" is being done to make up for that, a opinion he has stated many times in various ways. It's not true. Bow users do more DPS, period. I couldn't care less if a few bows are nerfed to be where they need to.

[Kaboom2112]

Why does everyone assume they'll gut Tempest capstone (and nerf PTWF etc) without adding something to make up for that?

Past experience has left me with zero faith, that and Steelstar hates tempests.

[neain2008]

As archers focus was one of the things that were recently changed to stack with all the doubleshot, could it be possible that's one of the things on the shortlist of procs that might get multipliers to stacking with the new system? please. it feels really bad at the moment. don't want to sit in IPS because -20% is seriously harsh, but cant stack archers' focus easily anymore either.

[Tilomere]

1) If you give the raid bosses a gaurd ward or aura when it is hit, that ward can suppress certain player procs that said boss is immune to for a period of time. This can include all passive on-hit CC. When you attack, the procs for that attack are either indivicually either active or inactive, and if inactive it never goes to the proc server. Disjuncted gear does this already, so you already have some of the code for it.

Alternatively, you give all procs a dynamic % chance, the fully active chance whatever it may be say 50% for LGS Dust, and the fully inactive chance of 0%, or in between, and have the boss debuff ward swap between those proc chances on the player's gear. The server or instance itself may activate a proc reduction effect across the server under heavy load. The server or instance may reduce Fiery 10d6 from 100% to 80% by example.

2) You can also adjust the boss debuff ward dynamically, to ward against debuffs that are already stacked, by allowing said debuffs to overstack beyond their effective limit. For example, you could allow vulnerability to stack 30 times, but only have the effect of the first 20, but have stacking to 30 trigger the raid boss ward to prevent further vulnerability stacks for 30 seconds while the extra 10 stacks decays. Over 30 seconds the vulnerability stacks will drop from 30 to 20, and the ward will dynamically adjust to allow stacking vulnerability again.

You can dynamically do this with:

Vulnerability
Armor Destruction
Dust
Ooze
Vacuum
Ash
Shattered
Sunder
Imp. Sunder
Every other non-damaging effect debuff
Every passive and spell on-hit damage over time debuff (ninja poison, glass shards, burning, immolation, bleed, etc)


Allow each of these and other similiar debuffs to stack higher, but not increase the limit on effectiveness, and then suppress these procs entirely from even happening for 30+ seconds while the increased stacks decay. Change the decay on these to be 1 stack per unit of time, and not all at once.

Basically, the items and abilities that do this would be flagged by the ward or aura to produce or not produce these procs in the first place based on current boss debuff stacks.

This would have a small impact on raid boss > trash mob transition dps, but players also get slightly improved boss performance, since procs will more likely be at maxed stacks.

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You could also just store the result of minor procs on character data, and reuse it for 6 seconds at a time, so 9d6 flaming would be a definite single # like 34 for 6 seconds at a time, and server-wide preprocess it, so that every single proc of 9d6 across the server is 34 for 6 seconds.

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You could also allow property swaps on raid weapons from procs to DR breaking or seasonal set bonuses or even crit. An axe of fire and lightning and ice then becomes a metalline aligned axe of Winter.

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You can also just have stacking procs give twice as many stacks, half as often. This combined with a ward suppressing certain procs half the time would reduce those procs to 1/4th as many processes.

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You can also just raid ward suppress all the most pointless low damage weapon procs like "10d6 Fiery."

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To limit the initial surge of procs you could set the proc ward to cut all proc chances by at least in half for first 10 seconds, and then fully if the overstack is filled. Fiery 10d6 becomes 50% Fiery 10d6 (both of which are pointless) and Dust 50% becomes Dust 25% until overstacked, then becomes Dust 0%. This could also be set by the server or instance as a global override should it ever become overloaded. Then go to fully dynamic proc ward, at which point a lot of debuff procs have been turned off due to overstacking as above.

[Zoveride]

They could always make the raid bows easier to acquire and change the S/S/S drop rates (or the mechanic altogether). That would resolve the difficulty of acquisition issue, which seems to be the biggest complaint levied at changing these bows.

They could also just leave them alone. They could also put something back on the bow - take away the 1 crit range and add an augment slot, enhancement, etc...
What is the purpose of this hypothetical?

IBCrabin, you missed my point. Zoveride said "nothing" is being done to make up for that, a opinion he has stated many times in various ways. It's not true. Bow users do more DPS, period. I couldn't care less if a few bows are nerfed to be where they need to.

That's merely your opinion. While YOU may not care if the bows are nerfed, there are others who do care. Your opinion is no more valid than mine.
And my point is still true - the bows themselves are getting a nerf - regardless if feats and enhancements are getting buffed - the bow itself is getting a nerf. There is no lie about that, sorry but facts over feelings.

[WarDestroyer]

What's the impact this will have on stacking abilities, such as LD's Blitz, Occult Slayer's Weapon Bond and Ravager's Fury? It seems it will be harder to keep them up.

[Tuxedoman96]

They could also just leave them alone. They could also put something back on the bow - take away the 1 crit range and add an augment slot, enhancement, etc...
What is the purpose of this hypothetical?

Alright. Let's put it like this then. Why should we leave them alone (which we really aren't because if the range isn't reduced then they get the benefit, which means they are getting affected)? Because they are difficult to acquire maybe? Because some of those items are from raids of a bygone era? Because those bows in particular don't do enough damage? I want to understand your reasoning for being so adamant against this change. You say they could put an augment slot onto them, but is that going to seem like a fair trade to you? Are you going to be placated because of the addition of an augment slot to the weapons? What to you is worth the range that the bows are losing?

And my point is still true - the bows themselves are getting a nerf - regardless if feats and enhancements are getting buffed - the bow itself is getting a nerf. There is no lie about that, sorry but facts over feelings.

You are correct. The bows themselves are getting a nerf. That being said, we probably shouldn't be looking at just the bow separated from all of the other affixes and bonuses that can be placed on it.

[IBCrabin]

No, but per the Wiki page, both long- and shortbows get a +1 from Improved Critical. The "Improved Critical doubles your base range" ship sailed a while ago, so it's moot.

Also, most endgame weapons have Keen/Impact/etc. these days. Not that endgame is the only game in town, but that's where folks argue damage matters most, and inferior damage is noticed more.



...Have you been paying attention to the other balance changes? During the Inquisitive balance pass, Ratcatcher lost 1 critical threat range. It's still the best heroic crossbow, it's just no longer the best one from 20-29 as well. Same with the Nightforge weapons when Alchemist came out

THF got a bit of a pass, but that was the fighting style as a whole. Arguably Inquisitive was too, but dual-crossbow is focused on a single tree and weapon type that was previously overperforming. THF's nerf was because it was overperforming for many builds / weapons. Nerfing SoS / Drow Maul / etc. would shore up some outliers, but it wouldn't have solved the issue of THF dominating endgame content as well, since few endgame weapons these days have expanded critical profiles.

In this case, the net result is no change for the bows with expanded crit profiles. The gap between them and other bows is narrowing, but that's because other bows are getting better profiles and the expanded-profile bows are remaining where they were. Not to mention it's happening simultaneously, unlike Alch + Nightforge or Inq + Ratcatcher, where that FotM spec was OP for a while before they brought it back into line.

And finally, all of this is happening in anticipation of Horizon Walker. They know what it will contain (or at least the broad strokes, relative power, etc) and we don't. At least wait until Horizon Walker previews before tooting the DoomHorn

The point is, if they are going to nerf weapons because they were design under the premise to "prop up" a playstyle BACK IN THE DAY, why did they even come up with drow weapons, caught in the web weapons? SoS? Were they to prop up the playstyle of melee back then?

At the end of the day, if people don't like what they are doing to the game, they leave.

[Xgya]

1) If you give the raid bosses a gaurd ward or aura when it is hit, that ward can suppress certain player procs that said boss is immune to for a period of time. This can include all passive on-hit CC.

That's not exactly how the effects queue works from what I surmised.
The effect would be sent through queue, and then, instead of rolling a save, the boss would say "immune". It wouldn't reduce the amount of times the effect attempts to proc at all.

[Zoveride]

Alright. Let's put it like this then. Why should we leave them alone (which we really aren't because if the range isn't reduced then they get the benefit, which means they are getting affected)? Because they are difficult to acquire maybe? Because some of those items are from raids of a bygone era? Because those bows in particular don't do enough damage? I want to understand your reasoning for being so adamant against this change. You say they could put an augment slot onto them, but is that going to seem like a fair trade to you? Are you going to be placated because of the addition of an augment slot to the weapons? What to you is worth the range that the bows are losing?



You are correct. The bows themselves are getting a nerf. That being said, we probably shouldn't be looking at just the bow separated from all of the other affixes and bonuses that can be placed on it.

Why should we leave them alone? Because that is how they were released. Those values were what "made the sale".
Due to legal stuff none of us really "bought" an item but we spent money on expansions, raid bypass timers, etc...
I realize that this does not mean we own the items and SSG can change them at will as is their right - it is their game.
While it is their RIGHT, it does not make it the right thing to do.
In making this change to the bows, specifically to the ones IN MY INVENTORY (which means I already spent in an effort to acquire) then this leaves a serious bad taste in my mouth as a customer and this will 100% influence me on future spending (if any to be honest if this goes through)

I'm just trying to save them at least 1 customer. I would like to continue to be a paying customer.

Today it's bows, tomorrow it's (???). With this business practice, I will lose faith and confidence and will not be able to make future purchases.

It's almost funny how when items get buffed - old items in inventory get left alone (see Lordsmarch Plaza loot revamp)
but when items get nerfed - old items in inventory get changed.



That being said, as to your other point, it doesn't matter what change will make me placated as the devs are not going to unnerf them. BUT, I will indulge you

Sure, I would be happy with an augment slot, or any of the following:

1) Augment Slot
2) xd6 (I believe for this level it's 3d6 but could be 4d6. (Could be holy, fire, acid - don't care really)
3) Good Bypass (fits theme for Ascension Chamber)
4) + 2 Enhancement bonus to weapon (It's currently +3 while other ML bows are +5)
5) Honestly open to suggestions. I don't think any of these asks are out of line or asking for too much or outweighs the loss, feel free to correct me if this makes it OP by adding an augment slot or xd6?

This symbolic gesture to show that they recognize it's a nerf and are trying to do something would be appreciated.
I can only speak for myself but I would personally be "placated" and continue to be a happy camper.

[Jinxx]

something[/I] would be appreciated.
I can only speak for myself but I would personally be "placated" and continue to be a happy camper.

I agree with you - something should be added to the list of bows that are being nerfed, and yes it is a nerf.

[Tuxedoman96]

Why should we leave them alone? Because that is how they were released. Those values were what "made the sale".
Due to legal stuff none of us really "bought" an item but we spent money on expansions, raid bypass timers, etc...
I realize that this does not mean we own the items and SSG can change them at will as is their right - it is their game.
While it is their RIGHT, it does not make it the right thing to do.
In making this change to the bows, specifically to the ones IN MY INVENTORY (which means I already spent in an effort to acquire) then this leaves a serious bad taste in my mouth as a customer and this will 100% influence me on future spending (if any to be honest if this goes through)

Well yes, they were released that way. Most of these bows were also released based on a different paradigm with different management and under different in-game circumstances. I don't support the notion that items should go unchanged even as the game itself changes.

I'm just trying to save them at least 1 customer. I would like to continue to be a paying customer.

Voting with your wallet is a viable tactic.

Today it's bows, tomorrow it's (???). With this business practice, I will lose faith and confidence and will not be able to make future purchases.

Wait, you still have faith and confidence about this? This is not the first time that item nerfs has happened. In fact, I'm sure many here are still keenly aware and reeling from the removal of enhanced spell power. I fail to see how this change in particular would get a rise out of you and cause you to suspend your payments but the other changes to items throughout the years haven't. You know, the whole "fool me twice" schtick. Also, yes, tomorrow it'll be something different, but I usually have low expectations anyways so that I'm either not bothered by said changes or pleasantly surprised.

It's almost funny how when items get buffed - old items in inventory get left alone (see Lordsmarch Plaza loot revamp)
but when items get nerfed - old items in inventory get changed.

I will say that this can be a little annoying, but they might be using the reacquisition as a catchup mechanic between those who have the item and those who don't. Not that I necessarily agree with that stance.

That being said, as to your other point, it doesn't matter what change will make me placated as the devs are not going to unnerf them. BUT, I will indulge you

Sure, I would be happy with an augment slot, or any of the following:

1) Augment Slot
2) xd6 (I believe for this level it's 3d6 but could be 4d6. (Could be holy, fire, acid - don't care really)
3) Good Bypass (fits theme for Ascension Chamber)
4) + 2 Enhancement bonus to weapon (It's currently +3 while other ML bows are +5)
5) Honestly open to suggestions. I don't think any of these asks are out of line or asking for too much or outweighs the loss, feel free to correct me if this makes it OP by adding an augment slot or xd6?

I don't think it's OP, no. If you are willing to trade +1 crit range for any one of those above then that's fine and dandy.

This symbolic gesture to show that they recognize it's a nerf and are trying to do something would be appreciated.
I can only speak for myself but I would personally be "placated" and continue to be a happy camper.

Perhaps they haven't settled on a solution (not to say they haven't thought of any ofc) and are looking at what the players come up with?

[Zoveride]

Voting with your wallet is a viable tactic.


Wait, you still have faith and confidence about this? This is not the first time that item nerfs has happened. In fact, I'm sure many here are still keenly aware and reeling from the removal of enhanced spell power. I fail to see how this change in particular would get a rise out of you and cause you to suspend your payments but the other changes to items throughout the years haven't. You know, the whole "fool me twice" schtick. Also, yes, tomorrow it'll be something different, but I usually have low expectations anyways so that I'm either not bothered by said changes or pleasantly surprised.



That's due to the fact that I am a relatively new player. I started about a year ago and have been getting into the game more and more, learning and buying. I haven't been around for years so this is my first nerf, lol. So this is why this change gets a rise out of me.
So "fool me twice" still applies here for me. SSG just fooled me once with the bow nerf, I don't intend to be fooled twice.







I don't think it's OP, no. If you are willing to trade +1 crit range for any one of those above then that's fine and dandy.





Perhaps they haven't settled on a solution (not to say they haven't thought of any ofc) and are looking at what the players come up with?

Would be pleasantly surprised if this happens.

[Tuxedoman96]

That's due to the fact that I am a relatively new player. I started about a year ago and have been getting into the game more and more, learning and buying. I haven't been around for years so this is my first nerf, lol. So this is why this change gets a rise out of me.
So "fool me twice" still applies here for me. SSG just fooled me once with the bow nerf, I don't intend to be fooled twice.

Welcome to the game then. That being said, yeah, this isn't the first or the last time that this has happened. The reasoning behind some of the changes aren't gonna make sense a lot of times, since the devs are privy to information, data, and projected changes that the average player isn't (and that they can't disclose due to NDA). Even with that understanding, I'm occasionally at odds with what changes they make and how they make them, but I find that generally it's better for my health if I give them the benefit of the doubt and have an open mind (not saying you aren't ofc). At the end of the day, changes to the bows, and changes to the archery style simply mean that I have to change how I handle my encounters or what bows I use (or what builds I make).

[Artos_Fabril]

Bows will end up better after this pass compared to before

That does not appear to be the case, even after the revision in preview 2.

[Seph1roth5]

I understand the devs saying these bows were made extra powerful when they came out to make up for the general cruminess of bows, and I understand people being mad that their crit is being nerfed without any balance.

I don't understand why devs don't try SOMEthing, even if it's just a 0.5w increase, or at the very least bringing up their numbers up to named gear of that level. There's got to be some small stuff that can be added to these bows to appease people.

[GroundhogDay]

It's more like how steroids aren't allowed in the Olympics, because allowing them would force everyone to use steroids to be competitive. Like Enhancement spellpower items, or +2 range Bows - if you're not using those on a relevant build, you're objectively worse than someone who is.

Does that make more sense?

To use your example it would be more like if Steelstar had 7 fingers on his right hand, and got surgery to balance his hands out each with 6 fingers. Since, ya know, other bows are getting boosted. And since more fingers is obviously better in this example?

Actually no. We know the mindset of Steelstar, we've all seen the discord chatlogs, and his "thought" process against, let's say dod.

He sees something gets used more than other things and his first thought is always to cut it down rather than, say, adding choices.

Don't get me wrong, i understand why he thinks like that. I cannot explain why because that would hurt his feelings and violate the rules of the forum, but still it isn't a good look and doesn't make me trust anything the "devs" do.

Again, i fall back to my hand and finger cutting example.

[draven1]

No change for strike-through for this proposal.

When THF hits multiple mobs(most of time), ST basically causes 3+ hit calculation on 1 hit, so, actually, it is worse than TWF doublestrike.

Have you reviewed THF and ST effects for lag problems?
It may be coincidence, but, when you introduced strike-though(U45), the lag got worse far more.

[salmag]

No change for strike-through for this proposal.

When THF hits multiple mobs(most of time), ST basically causes 3+ hit calculation on 1 hit, so, actually, it is worse than TWF doublestrike.

Have you reviewed THF and ST effects for lag problems?
It may be coincidence, but, when you introduced strike-though(U45), the lag got worse far more.

That's why I was wondering about Cleave and Great Cleave. Imagine cleaving with a vorpal or paralyzer.

How does that affect lag and the event queue?

I guess this boils down to introducing more and more (un-DnD like) systems without figuring out the underlying code first.

[Zoveride]

Welcome to the game then. That being said, yeah, this isn't the first or the last time that this has happened. The reasoning behind some of the changes aren't gonna make sense a lot of times, since the devs are privy to information, data, and projected changes that the average player isn't (and that they can't disclose due to NDA). Even with that understanding, I'm occasionally at odds with what changes they make and how they make them, but I find that generally it's better for my health if I give them the benefit of the doubt and have an open mind (not saying you aren't ofc). At the end of the day, changes to the bows, and changes to the archery style simply mean that I have to change how I handle my encounters or what bows I use (or what builds I make).

Thanks!
I was hopeful at first, trying to ask what is going on and what will be done to make good on the nerfs as I read and understood the intention of a bow pass to be a buff not a nerf, so I'm looking at it from this perspective.
When I started I was told archers sucked along with bows but I have always found them fascinating (more interesting than a crossbow or throwing dagger - fantasy wise, not DPS in this game)
and always liked them so I wanted to play them here. I understand that I could just switch to dual crossbow and play a much better ranged build but - I like longbows and what is dual crossbows even? lol
Hopefully something positive will come out of this "bow pass" so we can have fun.
I look forward to being able to play an arcane archer.