Warlock NERF Again

[slarden]

It's an awesome time for a pure 20 FVS, still the warlock who did it faster did it under 20 mins or 50% faster than you, and he told he was not even going for speed run, that's very telling of the class inbalance when 1 class not speedrunnig is 50% more efficient than another going for fastest time.

Tell you what. As soon as you show us a completion with your real character name on a warlock I will show you an LE completion on my 9th character randiccar. There are a few builds I want to try out anyhow and none of my first 8 characters will meet your requirements. But can accelerate my tinkering on randiccar if you show us first. I may not have time until the weekend, but I will respond by this coming weekend once you do the same. You must also disclose the name of your main characters so we are on equal footing here.

Also you can ask Cordovan to verify that the account posted belongs to this account. I am sure he wouldn't mind with your permission.

Beyond that I am mainly farming the chain on my wizard randslar if you want to see completion am happy to show that as it's my most efficient farmer for the quest. I make my in-game decisions based on what I want to do not what some random forumite with a 10/16 join date demands.

I make no claims of being uber, just persistent and transparent - not using any undisclosed exploits. All my characters are known. I don't hide behind a forum account dated 10/16.

[Wizza]

I am not going to bother responding to wizza's 10/16 acct.

I don't hide behind a forum account dated 10/16.

But he doesn't hide. I thought I was him? and I have a thread with my build and videos up.

[slarden]

But he doesn't hide. I thought I was him? and I have a thread with my build and videos up.

My builds and completions on elite are also up in the forum build threads. I play an easy-button warlock just as you play an easy button sorc.

I also have elite completions posted on builds like assassin that are much more difficult to play - and in content that people said was especially difficult for an assassin at the time. I have elite completion screenshots posted on the newest end game content on builds with minimal past lifes.

[Wizza]

My builds and completions on elite are also up in the forum build threads. I play an easy-button warlock just as you play an easy button sorc.

I also have elite completions posted on builds like assassin that are much more difficult to play - and in content that people said was especially difficult for an assassin at the time. I have elite completion screenshots posted on the newest end game content on builds with minimal past lifes.

Ok? But what is the correlation between what you quoted and what you wrote here? Oh I get it. You were responding to "my sock". Gotcha!

[slarden]

Ok? But what is the correlation between what you quoted and what you wrote here? Oh I get it. You were responding to "my sock". Gotcha!

You said you had thread with proof with proof of elite completions - I have many - but some are without all the past lifes and more challenging builds. That is the correlation.

[Wizza]

You said you had thread with proof with proof of elite completions - I have many - but some are without all the past lifes and more challenging builds. That is the correlation.

You should read better, without twisting my words to try to make a point I never claimed I had proofs "of elite completions". I only said it because you said he was my sock at first, then backed out and said he was hiding, to which I replied "if he is me, he is not hiding as you can see my toon in my thread". So which is it: is he me, thus he is not hiding, or is he not me?

[nokowi]

The same dude, with the same skill level in 2 diferent completions of the same quest in the same difficulty, on a diferent class

He didn't have his guildie Noko with him

All joking aside, High Lords of Malkier is a guild that has a mix of power, causal, and some new players. Ginger makes sure that enough players are there to succeed, and everyone else can bring their good or bad toons.

From experience, this was probably a group of players not on their best toons, having no idea Ginger was going to record, until they got into the quest and he said, "hey I'm going to make a video". High Lords of Malkier don't do speed runs or look at time of completion. It's about having a good time. THIS is what you should learn from his video.

[nokowi]

Why not in the boss fight? The damage output from bosses is much greater. From the video, it seems like it was their first run through and they didn't know how the end fight works (comes in without shrining with 400 sp left, spams spells on the bosses with the high resistances, etc). I think the comparison would be more telling if he would do it after he learned the mechanics, just like it was on his warlock.

Of course there is a difference between druid and warlock but that is the beauty of the game. It would be boring if the classes would be the same. That is pretty much what was happening in the last two years with the enhancement passes and it didn't bring any good IMO. I can say that fire druid in heroics and then ice druid in EA in epics is amazingly fun class to play. Meanwhile warlock is a good class for new players so they don't have to suffer such a power and knowledge gap between them and long time veterans. It doesn't have to be necessarily a bad thing.

His druid is the better choice for a party that doesn't know the quest, as it has more tools. It's also one he plays more.

Great Healing
Great Crowd Control
Ability to Tank
Good DPS

I know which toon I would pick for a group that wants or needs assistance.

[2pc2]

Why not in the boss fight? The damage output from bosses is much greater.

While it's true the damage it's sightly higer saying it's much greater is simply a lie. Not enough to justify the fact that the same player wasn't able to effectively tank 2 bosses and was doing almost zero damage while in the other vid he could tank all 5 easy while at the same time killing them all, using only 3 buttons while semi afk lol. You can twist it as you want there will always be that excuse but if one takes a look at the 2 end fights it just seems they are playing a different dificuty.

Of course there is a difference between druid and warlock but that is the beauty of the game. It would be boring if the classes would be the same. That is pretty much what was happening in the last two years with the enhancement passes and it didn't bring any good IMO. I can say that fire druid in heroics and then ice druid in EA in epics is amazingly fun class to play. Meanwhile warlock is a good class for new players so they don't have to suffer such a power and knowledge gap between them and long time veterans. It doesn't have to be necessarily a bad thing.

Difference in playstyle is ok and needed no one discusses it I think. A barb and a druid are very different in playstyle and in what they can or can't do, however there is not that huge gap in power like we see in between warlocks and the rest of the classes.

[Atheok]

I have got a few of questions:
Do you think you could have done that much easier on a warlock?
Do you think the average pugger on your server could have done it on your FVS ?
Do you think that same average pugger could have done it with an equaly geared/past life warlock?
Do you think you could have done it on any fleshy melee or ranged toon ?
Do you think you could have done it on a non warlock toon who does not have a full heal button?

Can I also answer those questions? I mean, am I allowed to? Well, I decided to do it anyways.

Q. Do you think you could have done that much easier on a warlock?
R. I don't care about this aspect, I like challanges, but I don't think I can do it faster with ginger's warlock build. Without Ruins that is. Spec the warlock for dps, lose the defenses.

Q. Do you think the average pugger on your server could have done it on your FVS ?
R. No. But he won't be able to do it on a warlock either. Because he's an average pugger.

Q. Do you think that same average pugger could have done it with an equaly geared/past life warlock?
R. ...

Q. Do you think you could have done it on any fleshy melee or ranged toon ?
R. How many times you need to change your criteria? First was no warlock, then no shiradi, then no bladeforged... this is getting boring... but yes!

Q. Do you think you could have done it on a non warlock toon who does not have a full heal button?
R. Again... when I told that story about the dog spinning around his tail you didn't paid attention...

Its funny you state somehow like Wipey was going for speed. Yet you see his kill count in the XP report. Are you familiar with speed runs? And I think I missed that warlock run under 20 mins, where is it? All I see is the same video over again. Show me that warlock under 20 mins completion who wasn't speedrunning pls!

Now, I know I asked some questions too, and maybe you feel uncomfortable to respond them, but I'll ask you one more. How did you missed Eth's fleshie completion? No Full Heal Botton... upss... does that answer one of your questions? oh my...

Overall. The Fvs, which has less defenses ofc than ginger's lock which was specced for defenses, not that it matter to you, will out dps the warlock in a full party. Where he doesn't need to be so tense and aware of not dying. Now well, what do you know? Will you argue this is a solo game? I will argue is not! DDO should be difficult for partys, not for soloers. "What do you know?" (the 2nd) Reaper mode is on its way!

But oh my, this is way too much information, now. Warlock really needs to be nurfed because I can't kill a mob while grouping with my 1st life not geared toon in an irrelevant quest that can be soloed by multiple builds/classes. Pathetic.

[Enoach]

I gave this two attempts over the weekend on my S&B Pure Paladin level 30 - I don't have all the new bells and whistle gear yet.

I did this for fun and just to see how far I could get solo and doing all the optional objectives.

As a Paladin my saves Umberhulks are not a problem for me so it was fun taking on 3 at a time.

Now my Saturday attempt ended at the Clay Golem. Took on a healing curse early and before I could remove it I went down to rats gnawing and Golem swings. But I made it to that point in the quest in about 40 minutes.

Sunday I employed a different strategy for the Clay Golem fight solo and this time made it to the end fight in 45 minutes. The fight was going well, I made it past the first Threshold with no problems and when I started working on the second is where trouble happened. It appears Narels got in two lucky strikes (non-better than 500) just after Slippery Debuffed me and AJ did his strikes while Consecration was on timer. All this before my healing ticked off.

I see what I did wrong strategy wise and have an idea of how to resolve it for a future attempt. I had a blast trying. Having over 200 PRR 150 MRR and lots of healing options as well as Shield Stun and Dire Charge while in DC (Primary is Defender with enough to have shield stun from Vanguard). I am a Charisma based PDK paladin currently on have 62 maxed self buff Charisma.

Now the difference I see with the video is the use of the Temporary HP and being able to refresh them. This is one of the reasons why the Warlocks of this build have very little movement in their health bar. Another point is this video is posted on Oct 11th. So they were also benefiting from 12x Constitution. It is now 8x Constitution. So is this still possible or is the potential of 200ish+ HP difference a factor (Based on 50 Constitution)

[2pc2]

yawn~

I make no claims of being uber, just persistent and transparent - not using any undisclosed exploits.

Just to clarify:

Why? The devs have already done the tests and they know warlock isn't top tier dps.

Beliveme, it does.

I agree. Warlocks need to be nerfed more. The ES nerf was rather pointless. Thanks for reminding me to chime in to counter your constant protectionism of the worst easy-button, group-negative class ever created for this game.

Then it should be no problem to provide accurate facts to prove it. Please do so. .

Feel free to provide proof rather than just ranting. .

I wish we had more facts coming from the people calling for nerfs rather than just lolz.

Last part is the most interesting....



Feel free to provide proof of a kensei or a ranged build doing that kind of aoe damage while effectively tanking 5 LE bosses from the most new content.

Yes I am rolling over slavers with my warlock.
Yes I am rolling over slavers with my wizard.
Yes I am rolling over slavers with my ranger
Yes I am rolling over slavers with my paladin
Yes I am rolling over slavears with my barbarian

So far I've solo'd slavers chain on warlock, wizard, barbarian, kensai, tempest, fvs, bard

People have already linked videos of other classes soloing that end fight - there is no need for me to repeat it.

People that run with me know what I do in game. I don't need to prove anything.

From time to time I've taken these forum challenges, but given how little credibility you have I won't waste my time.

So far I've solo'd slavers chain on warlock, wizard, barbarian, kensai, tempest, fvs, bard

none of my first 8 characters will meet your requirements.

Feel free to provide proof of a kensei or a ranged build doing that kind of aoe damage while effectively tanking 5 LE bosses from the most new content.

Stop making excuses pls, if after 30 pages you didn’t know how to give some proof by yourself after insisting on others to do so and failed to deliver anything while others did I doubt anyone will take you seriously unless you back up some of your claims first. You could have done it by youself or found a vid in the net that backed up your claims that other classes can overperform like warlocks do yet you failed on both.

If you can't do it on a non warlcok non cheesy build it's ok, most ppl here can't since so far only 1 person after 30 pages managed to post some facts about a non warlock doing it. And that's the problem with warlocks, they are so OP that it allow ppl who are incapable of doing certain quests in certain difficulty on any other class do do it easy just because they choose to play 1 single class, creating a huge inbalance. The result 1/3 of the epic toons on every server are warlocks, because everyone wants to play elite and some ppl can only do it if they are on a specific class called warlock. This create lazy players who get used to be able to run max difficulty without improving his skill at all, those same lazy players will demand an easy button for evey new difficulty they create because they got used to it, does anyone think the game can be half challenging for the rest with such class around?

Can’t wait to see the next batch of excuses, every new one is more surprising than the last.

[2pc2]

Yawn~

Not really interested in responses from someone who after 30 pages of thread only bring to the table imaginary uberness, name calling and 0 facts despite talking all the time how uber is him. We already have slarden ( without the name calling ) for that. As for Eth completion, divine wrath is a full heal button it can heal over 5k hp per click. As for warlock faster completion it was Sestra, looks like he's in your guild maybe you should ask him he posted an irrelevant screenshot somwhere in this thread.
If I want newb or dishonest responses I can go ask in the harbor or marketplace, save yourself some time next day or bring something usefull to the discussion apart from whaaaaag LE shroud this but whaaaag LE shroud that; and then maybe, just maybe, someone takes you seriously.

[BigErkyKid]

I gave this two attempts over the weekend on my S&B Pure Paladin level 30 - I don't have all the new bells and whistle gear yet.

I did this for fun and just to see how far I could get solo and doing all the optional objectives.

As a Paladin my saves Umberhulks are not a problem for me so it was fun taking on 3 at a time.

Now my Saturday attempt ended at the Clay Golem. Took on a healing curse early and before I could remove it I went down to rats gnawing and Golem swings. But I made it to that point in the quest in about 40 minutes.

Sunday I employed a different strategy for the Clay Golem fight solo and this time made it to the end fight in 45 minutes. The fight was going well, I made it past the first Threshold with no problems and when I started working on the second is where trouble happened. It appears Narels got in two lucky strikes (non-better than 500) just after Slippery Debuffed me and AJ did his strikes while Consecration was on timer. All this before my healing ticked off.

I see what I did wrong strategy wise and have an idea of how to resolve it for a future attempt. I had a blast trying. Having over 200 PRR 150 MRR and lots of healing options as well as Shield Stun and Dire Charge while in DC (Primary is Defender with enough to have shield stun from Vanguard). I am a Charisma based PDK paladin currently on have 62 maxed self buff Charisma.

Now the difference I see with the video is the use of the Temporary HP and being able to refresh them. This is one of the reasons why the Warlocks of this build have very little movement in their health bar. Another point is this video is posted on Oct 11th. So they were also benefiting from 12x Constitution. It is now 8x Constitution. So is this still possible or is the potential of 200ish+ HP difference a factor (Based on 50 Constitution)

That's IMHO the level of challenge a quest should have. And your build, while not a FOTM, looks like a legitimate option.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes you, and obviously you can judge how many attempts.

For me the real challenge was the end fight. I wanted to guarantee completion and took it with a lot of care, looking forward to people beating my time.

There was a poster a few pages ago that asked a few interesting questions. Let me find it for you.

[BigErkyKid]

Just few questions,

For the average skilled player, (most of ddo population, i think for the overperforming skilled or unskilled player this may change), what is the "best" class(es) for easiest and effective gameplay (both), (dps, survival, solo ability, group ability, weaknesses, advantages, content, race and gear dependency, play skill dependency, potential, etc), and knowing that always will be something at the top, how is that difference or margin respect other classes? Is short or big, enough to matter?

I think many variables have to be included when trying to talk about overperforming, not just dps like some players seem to do or just easy play skill, or just potential, etc. I see powergamers tend to talk more oriented to dps and builds potential while the average player values more the easy play, resources and skill required. All of that matters, and every aspect (play skill difficulty, dps, defense, etc) should be compared between classes and builds.

For example a barbarian can do great damage but the problem is they may die on the try (how much),
A tank can survive very well, at the cost of losing damage, (how much damage)
cc builds can control enemies at the cost of some damage/defense (how much)
x build is easier to play at the cost of damage/contribution (how much)
x build can contribute better at the cost of skills, resources, play difficulty ( how much)

In the end, after seeing old videos of builds capable of soloing raids designed for 12+players in 7 min, is hard to talk about balance, but at least some things can be done.

maybe if some people focused on answering things like this instead of trash talking something could come out of the conversation.

[Atheok]

Not really interested in responses from someone who after 30 pages of thread only bring to the table imaginary uberness, name calling and 0 facts despite talking all the time how uber is him. We already have slarden ( without the name calling ) for that. As for Eth completion, divine wrath is a full heal button it can heal over 5k hp per click. As for warlock faster completion it was Sestra, looks like he's in your guild maybe you should ask him he posted an irrelevant screenshot somwhere in this thread.
If I want newb or dishonest responses I can go ask in the harbor or marketplace, save yourself some time next day or bring something usefull to the discussion apart from whaaaaag LE shroud this but whaaaag LE shroud that; and then maybe, just maybe, someone takes you seriously.

You are cute as always I thought we clarified Sestra is not a warlock. I think you have some issues with it but anyways... Sestra's build will fall under "Shiradis Need to be Nerfed" thread. Not that I think it, but just because I want to please haters in this thread. Divine Wrath as heal option? C'mon.. you can't be more noob than this.. that is low, really, sorry I called you noob, but you can't just state that. And what a shocker would it be to tell you that Eth doesn't even use that spell? You won't believe me, but Eth, I guess you should make a video too.

Overall, I think you should move your entire arguments and discussions to Marketplace or Harbor and pick up random 1st lifers to /tell with. You'll have better credibility there, this thread just ins't for you.

Here's my imaginary uberness btw.

[Eth]

Divine Wrath as heal option? C'mon.. you can't be more noob than this.. that is low, really, sorry I called you noob, but you can't just state that. And what a shocker would it be to tell you that Eth doesn't even use that spell? You won't believe me, but Eth, I guess you should make a video too.

I have Divine Wrath, but I rarely use it. Damage is mediocre for my build. It's good to heal a party though and while still doing some damage.
Calling it out as an easy button for slavers part 3 end fight solo is certainly funny. Long wind up and long cooldown make it a rather poor self heal.
I do have footage of my run, if there's interest.

[BigErkyKid]

Here's my imaginary uberness btw.

Always nice to watch videos. How many SP pots have been used? On your shiradi, how many pots do you usually use? I have just skimmed through it but there seems to be a bunch of pots used in the end fight.

It seems clear to me that while this can be done on FVS, there are builds with which it can be done better / faster / more efficiently. That's been the point since around page 4 of this thread.

How many of the current achievements are done with a FVS? Or with a fleshy kensei, or with an assassin? And so on.

Everyone agrees that some builds are more powerful than others. The questions are:

1. How much?

2. Is this too much?

And the rest is just noise.

[Atheok]

Always nice to watch videos. How many SP pots have been used?

You can see that. I use none for trash, 5 in end fight. The last one is also useless, the boss was bugged. So that makes it 4. Wipey uses all his Ross uses, I don't have Ross. Yet I consider myself less geared than Wipey and less experienced with this build. That should make up for my SP pots uses.

On my shiradi I won't use any. But this is a "Warlock needs to be nerfed" thread. Idk now on a Warlock with Ruins if there's need for pots or not. I reckon yes. But hey, you won't trust my feelings anyways. As someone else stated, it's just my imaginary uberness speaking. I really like to continue on that note.

On ginger's build I would definitely not use any pots, as he is not build with ruins. Will also take longer time for the completion.

[BigErkyKid]

You can see that. I use none for trash, 5 in end fight. The last one is also useless, the boss was bugged. So that makes it 4. Wipey uses all his Ross uses, I don't have Ross. Yet I consider myself less geared than Wipey and less experienced with this build. That should make up for my SP pots uses.

On my shiradi I won't use any. But this is a "Warlock needs to be nerfed" thread. Idk now on a Warlock with Ruins if there's need for pots or not. I reckon yes. But hey, you won't trust my feelings anyways. As someone else stated, it's just my imaginary uberness speaking. I really like to continue on that note.

On ginger's build I would definitely not use any pots, as he is not build with ruins. Will also take longer time for the completion.

For me this is beyond warlock. Yes, I do realize the thread started with that. It is more about relative power, and some classes and archetypes pulling ahead of others.

As for your completion, or whether I trust your feelings or not, it's never been about that. I trust your feelings and sense alright. It's just you refuse to speak about balance since you think it's impossible and maybe undesirable, and I don't agree with that.

So yeah, if yiur point is that nerfing warlock alone is a bad policy, I agree.

When new abilities, fears, classes are added then more care should be devoted to investigating how they perform wrt others, and wrt content.

How do you rank existing builds, do you feel some are excessive poeerul with respect to others?