Warlock NERF Again

[BigErkyKid]

Most of these nerf requests are due to the top end players being witnessed blazing through quests at rates the rest cannot keep up with. It has very little to do with the actual class itself, other than the top players demonstrating what the optimal builds are, and how to best play them.
.

That's simply not true. Take the same player that is crushing content, give him something more balanced, and it won't be the same. We have been telling you. If you don't want to trust me on this, listen to the rest. It is OBVIOUS that skill matters, and game knowledge, and gear. Nevertheless, there are differences that are not based on that, it really is the build.

You make it sound like its a bunch of n00bs watching videos and getting impressed. That's the typical excuse, but its very far from the truth.

If it was truly the player, how come that power gamers and the top achievements constantly change their builds?

[2pc2]

Most of these nerf requests are due to the top end players being witnessed blazing through quests at rates the rest cannot keep up with. It has very little to do with the actual class itself

Had players not advocated for nerfs after most revamps, those other classes would be closer in power to warlock

You seem to change your mind very often, don't you? Yesterday the other classes were not even close to warlock power because they were nerfed and today it's just a matter of player skill. Very convincing yes. Standing in the middle of 5 LE bosses and never see you hp drop below 50% while pushing the same 3 buttons over and over takes a lot of skill yeah...
Opening you destiny window in a middle of a fight whith 6-7 LE mobs to check whatever for 30 seconds while standing still doing nothing and your hp never drop below 80% take a huge amount of skill yeah... those are not things I pulled out of thin air like some here like to do more often than not, those are hard facts you can see in the vid I posted.

MMOs would be more like bowling, where the worst players are spotted a "handicap" score so there can at least be some competition.

LOL. Do you even know of a class called warlock, because that is exactly what it is

It surprises me that the good players even post builds or videos any more. Doing so just lets the cat out of the bag, and gets the next nerf train started.

Oh so that is the new excuse to justyfy the fact that after 20, 20 lol! pages no one posted a single vid or screenshot of any other class overperforming like the warlock in this vid after making several claims about imaginary completions and vids? Expected.

Still the facts stand

[Tilomere]

Oh so that is the new excuse to justyfy the fact that after 20, 20 lol! pages no one posted a single vid or screenshot of any other class overperforming like the warlock in this vid after making several claims about imaginary completions and vids? Expected.

I was running tests in slavers groups last night and found that hellball was responsible for about 60-70% of my kills, and it was out killing and damaging the other party members. The conclusion I arrived at was that it doesn't matter what class you are playing if you have good a good hellball + AoE helpless.

An elf displaced/fey energy tap pure 20 kensai int based, with kta, dire charge, and hell ball would demolish slavers groups. The key is that you want 2-3k mana to have enough between shrines.

Fey energy tap will give 1k. A slavers item will give 371. A lgs item will give 375 more. Magical training gives 75. Epic spell casting feats will put you over 2k. Elf/Elf AA will give more.

This actually makes building a character for slavers runs exceedingly simple. Stack int, mana, dire charge dc, and hell ball, with a spinneret ring and circlet. The end. Oh, and since you wanted a screen shot, here is a sorc, using shiradi for helpless, outkilling melee by 2x or more.

[Phil7]

I told you nerf hellball

[Chai]

That's simply not true. Take the same player that is crushing content, give him something more balanced, and it won't be the same. We have been telling you. If you don't want to trust me on this, listen to the rest. It is OBVIOUS that skill matters, and game knowledge, and gear. Nevertheless, there are differences that are not based on that, it really is the build.

You make it sound like its a bunch of n00bs watching videos and getting impressed. That's the typical excuse, but its very far from the truth.

If it was truly the player, how come that power gamers and the top achievements constantly change their builds?

"give him something more balanced" LOL

You mean "force him to play something less powerful he didn't design"

Because by their own design, the top percentage of players who are the most successful in the top percentage of content, will always be the ones showcasing the optimal builds and optimal methods of play.

So yes, it is definitely true.

The real excuse makers here continually blame the build, when the system mastery by the player is the single biggest factor they refuse to acknowledge, and have been doing this for a solid decade, never succeeding once to bring their vision of balance to the game. Not sure what it takes to learn this lesson, if a decade of piled up evidence hasn't already made it sink in, not sure it ever will.

[Chai]

You seem to change your mind very often, don't you? Yesterday the other classes were not even close to warlock power because they were nerfed and today it's just a matter of player skill. Very convincing yes. Standing in the middle of 5 LE bosses and never see you hp drop below 50% while pushing the same 3 buttons over and over takes a lot of skill yeah...
Opening you destiny window in a middle of a fight whith 6-7 LE mobs to check whatever for 30 seconds while standing still doing nothing and your hp never drop below 80% take a huge amount of skill yeah... those are not things I pulled out of thin air like some here like to do more often than not, those are hard facts you can see in the vid I posted.



LOL. Do you even know of a class called warlock, because that is exactly what it is



Oh so that is the new excuse to justyfy the fact that after 20, 20 lol! pages no one posted a single vid or screenshot of any other class overperforming like the warlock in this vid after making several claims about imaginary completions and vids? Expected.

If you claim warlock is the most powerful in all aspects (even if you are incorrect) then you must acknowledge that if all the other nerfs didn't happen (which the same crowd advocated for), all those other classes would be closer to warlock power.

The only reason those demanding nerfs think warlock is OP is because they got a ton of other stuff nerfed in the past. Why did they advocate for nerfs of anything they believe could possibly compete with it (even if their belief system is logically incorrect).

The nerf advocacy union made their own beds here folks. If they truly believe warlock is OP, it is only because they got everything else nerfed around it.

I also still think its hilarious that you continually wave around the video of one of the top players on my home server and continually act like everyone on a warlock can do this - after having been called on this multiple times now. It has also been pointed out multiple times now that you passed up multiple other class videos with the same completion in order to pull this one up all the while claiming no other class can do it.

Thus, the direct contradiction in logic, is in your camp here, not mine.

[BigErkyKid]

The real excuse makers here continually blame the build, when the system mastery by the player is the single biggest factor they refuse to acknowledge, and have been doing this for a solid decade, never succeeding once to bring their vision of balance to the game. Not sure what it takes to learn this lesson, if a decade of piled up evidence hasn't already made it sink in, not sure it ever will.

Anyone playing DDO knows that builds matter. Thats why people invest time in crafting the powerful ones. That's why people wanted paladins to get buffed, and bards, because they were behind the power of other classes. And so on.

I think we will agree to disagree. You have made abundantly clear your message, although with zero evidence to back it up.

[Chai]

Anyone playing DDO knows that builds matter. Thats why people invest time in crafting the powerful ones. That's why people wanted paladins to get buffed, and bards, because they were behind the power of other classes. And so on.

I think we will agree to disagree. You have made abundantly clear your message, although with zero evidence to back it up.

No

anyone playing ddo knows that builds matter. Thats why people invest time in crafting the powerful ones. That's why people wanted paladins to get nerfed, and bards nerfed, because they were behind the power of other classes, all the while the nerf crowd claimed repeatedly they were top of the meta until they were nerfed. And so on.

I think we will agree to disagree. You have made abundantly clear your message, with 10 years of evidence to back it up.

Yes

(FTFY)

[Sam-u-r-eye]

for the record...


Let's nerf warlocks into the ground.

[Tilomere]

I told you nerf hellball

Int based barb with sprint boost... dire charge, and hell ball. Non-raged. Dire Charge > Supreme Cleave > Hell Ball combo. Occult slayer for spell resistance.

Oh the irony on occult slayer being a decent arcane nuking platform since you don't have to be raged, and also the best tree by far for group slaver's runs.

[BigErkyKid]

Int based barb with sprint boost... dire charge, and hell ball. Non-raged. Dire Charge > Supreme Cleave > Hell Ball combo. Occult slayer for spell resistance...

Oh the irony on occult slayer being a decent arcane nuking platform since you don't have to be raged... and also probably the best for group slaver's runs.

That sounds like a horrible build. You can easily use mass hold - sound burst - the new icy thingy to stun mobs in slavers. Way more convenient than dire charge; even though you seemed to have a fixation with it. Heck if you must use dire charge do it on a high casting stat caster. Hell ball in a vacuum is not as powerful as on a caster AND hell ball is not the only trick casters have for nice AoE.

Labeling that "the best for group slaver's runs" is just terribly misleading.

[Theolin]

That's simply not true. Take the same player that is crushing content, give him something more balanced, and it won't be the same. We have been telling you. If you don't want to trust me on this, listen to the rest. It is OBVIOUS that skill matters, and game knowledge, and gear. Nevertheless, there are differences that are not based on that, it really is the build.

You make it sound like its a bunch of n00bs watching videos and getting impressed. That's the typical excuse, but its very far from the truth.

If it was truly the player, how come that power gamers and the top achievements constantly change their builds?

I would disagree with you on this. I have seen things that cannot be explained by builds many many times.

[Tilomere]

That sounds like a horrible build. You can easily use mass hold - sound burst - the new icy thingy to stun mobs in slavers. Way more convenient than dire charge; even though you seemed to have a fixation with it. Heck if you must use dire charge do it on a high casting stat caster. Hell ball in a vacuum is not as powerful as on a caster AND hell ball is not the only trick casters have for nice AoE.

Labeling that "the best for group slaver's runs" is just terribly misleading.

Barbs can't cast mass hold...

Soundburst requires charisma, so doesn't end up as high a DC as int-based with kta, and you don't get charisma to hit and damage on a pure 20 barb without a +1 pdk heart. Hellball + AoE stun is not the only trick, but it will definitely do the trick. It's not like a barb in LD or DC would only have hellball for damage, so it's not a vacuum. I don't think it's misleading. I can't think of a better idea to bring melee up to caster level AoE clearing power, other than to make them also casters.

[BigErkyKid]

Barbs can't cast mass hold...

Soundburst requires charisma, so doesn't end up as high a DC as int-based with kta, and you don't get charisma to hit and damage on a pure 20 barb without a +1 pdk heart. Hellball + AoE stun is not the only trick, but it will definitely do the trick. It's not like a barb in LD would only have hellball for damage, so it's not a vacuum. I don't think it's misleading. I can't think of a better idea to bring melee up to caster level AoE clearing power, other than to make them also casters.

I obviously don't mean a barbarian. What I am saying is that trying to get a barbarian to use hell ball is a terrible idea. And even if you succeeded in giving the barbarian a somehow decent hell ball, you would still be miles behind the proper casters. So I really don't see the point of doing that. A barbarian relies on rage for moar damage through critical rage, and the bonuses to rage itself.

If I am wrong, kudos to you. Original thinking is nice in DDO but coming to a threat about some classes (like barbarian) being behind in power to suggest that they now turn into hell ball casters...dunno man.

[Tilomere]

If I am wrong, kudos to you. Original thinking is nice in DDO but coming to a threat about some classes (like barbarian) being behind in power to suggest that they now turn into hell ball casters...dunno man.

I did this before for clerics in the thread titled Nerf Hellball, where someone was suggesting to nerf hellball:

Start with my cleric build.

Hellball can double hit for 2x12d20+60 or 372 base.

You get 2.5x damage from helpless from dire charge

You get 7.5x damage from 650 universal spell power (maximize only)

You get 1.36x damage from ~29% crit for 125% bonus damage on crit (3x EPL, spinnerett) (slave masters is 41% crit)

My cleric with hellball would hit for only 9.45k, not 13k.

The AoE #s end up so high that in groups relative to mob health it will contribute more AoE dps than you can with melee in the short time frame before the mobs get annihilated. In a 5 person group against 20k hp mobs, doing 4k or more AoE damage is your even share. 9.45k above is way over-achieving. Even on a barb instead of a cleric, it still would produce numbers larger than the barb's fair share of AoE damage necessary to complete the quest. Plus because it is a feat, it is available to everyone.

That is why I said it would be the best build for group slavers. You start off with a combo that deals twice your share of AoE damage in the first few seconds of the fight, and then still have a LD barbarian to mop up with...

In a way, it is actually better than playing a caster. You get 70% of the AoE nuking power of a sorc, at a cost of PTWF 5% double strike as your 28 feat. When you get to the boss, you have a full LD melee, minus 5% double strike.

Almost everyone says the slave masters staff is garbage. Almost everyone also says to make a 39/41 barb for max dps. That doesn't mean that they aren't all wrong. Side Note: Divine Crusader is also amazing...

[Knight_slayer]

ASL P3 solo 21:41

I have 12 Warlock on my build. I spend 21 points in TS to get the 30% crit damage. THIS IS ALL WARLOCK IS DOING FOR MY BUILD. No auras, no bursts, no blasts, no PRR/MRR, no damage spells or abilities used from warlock besides tentacles which I don't use in the boss fight. This is not a speedrun, just the first time I tried to solo this quest.

[BigErkyKid]

ASL P3 solo 21:41

I have 12 Warlock on my build. I spend 21 points in TS to get the 30% crit damage. THIS IS ALL WARLOCK IS DOING FOR MY BUILD. No auras, no bursts, no blasts, no PRR/MRR, no damage spells or abilities used from warlock besides tentacles which I don't use in the boss fight. This is not a speedrun, just the first time I tried to solo this quest.

Grats on your build and evidence is always welcome.

I am sure someone can post a better melee run than my 80 mins one. Heck I'm sure I can get it done faster myself.

But did you miss the part where we acknowledged that there are other relatively over performing builds besides warlock?

You killed a lot of mobs and so on, do you think you could achieve a solo run like this on your barb? Or on a typical pure fleshy kensei?

And even if you could, if you were to put those two builds in a quest with others playing your warlock, do you think it they would be contributing much?

Those are the kind of issues we are discussing here.

[Tilomere]

Sestras good enough he only needs 8 class levels to solo LE slavers...

Can you do a hell ball test, and run a a dungeon with and without hell ball use, either solo like you did, or against others and use that to see relatively how much of your AoE damage is related to it?

[nokowi]

Running slavers on an assassin must feel like pulling teeth, and in a group it is just a pike fest.

I haven't ran Slavers, but I will say that I have ran with the person in the Warlock video probably 1000 times, probably in nearly every quest in the game, and never once did my assassin feel this way. In most content I would still be contributing quite heavily. You could search through more of his videos and look for Nokowi if any of them have group play --> I just hope you don't find the ToEE end fight where I broke my only weapons with a full inv and was trying to stay alive while looking for a random gear weapon in my inventory

If it is true for this one quest in the game, I don't see why it's such a big problem --> designing the entire class balance around this one quest would not produce a balanced game for all other content.

Assassin is 2-3x as powerful in a group setting (vs solo) because they don't have to stop to heal or cc. They are more interesting to play because you are selecting individual targets, going in and out of stealth, and moving throughout the combat area. Contrast this with standing in one spot and bursting. I would consider the latter more of a pike fest.

[BigErkyKid]

I haven't ran Slavers, but I will say that I have ran with the person in the Warlock video probably 1000 times, probably in nearly every quest in the game, and never once did my assassin feel this way. In most content I would still be contributing quite heavily. You could search through more of his videos and look for Nokowi if any of them have group play --> I just hope you don't find the ToEE end fight where I broke my only weapons with a full inv and was trying to stay alive while looking for a random gear weapon in my inventory

If it is true for this one quest in the game, I don't see why it's such a big problem --> designing the entire class balance around this one quest would not produce a balanced game for all other content.

Assassin is 2-3x as powerful in a group setting (vs solo) because they don't have to stop to heal or cc. They are more interesting to play because you are selecting individual targets, going in and out of stealth, and moving throughout the combat area. Contrast this with standing in one spot and bursting. I would consider the latter more of a pike fest.

Two comments on this.

The particular warlock in the video is on the low dps side. His build intention is not obliteration, rather tankiness. As such, I more than believe you when you say playing with him provides you window of opportunity to swing.

That said, if you put more warlocks like him in party, or higher dps current aoe fotm, I'm pretty sure your assassin would not do much. I say that because I ve played extensively with winged angels of death. Both in the piloting end and on the receiving end.