Cannith Crafting Discussion - Part 2

[Gremmlynn]

Also the system must include masterful craftsmanship. Implement it so that for blanks it works like it does on new loot gen and for things like Rune Arms and challenge gear it works as it currently does by reducing the ML, or 2 different versions of the shard with each being able to be applied to the appropriate item type.

They also could just lower the MLs of all that by 2 as that's all masterful does currently and is pretty much the default.

[Mindos]

They also could just lower the MLs of all that by 2 as that's all masterful does currently and is pretty much the default.

They are removing choices, which is BAD game design. How so? Sure, *most* just use the craftable property to lower the min level, but we can *choose* to put other effects on these items. Limiting what we can do, and calling it NEW and improved, is why the game declines and doesn't ascend.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

For the essence conversion, I really wonder, you are not able to automatically convert old into new?

It's less that they can't, more they don't want to. Which I, for one, appreciate.

My crafter currently has a Colossal Ingredients Bag. She has full stacks - 10K - of just about everything. That's 24 stacks (12 greater, 12 lesser) of 10K essences. Assuming a 5:1 conversion for the lessers (as well as the already-listed 1:1 for greaters and a stack size of 10K), that'll be 12 stacks of the new essence from the greaters and 2.4 from the lessers. That's (effectively) 15 stacks... only one of which will now go into the bag. The other 14 stacks will be going into my inventory. (Not to mention the overflow currently in my shared bank.... which yes, may well combine down to the point where I could probably put all those excess stacks into the bank, but still. Not really the point.)

I don't want this.

So not auto-converting? This is a GOOD thing. And NoWorries has confirmed (in both crafting threads, but here's the link for the one in this one) that there would be multiple recipes for conversion, so you won't have to click so many times. I imagine it'll go up to at least 10K at once.

I can handle 24 clicks over a period of time, since there's no real need to convert everything at once. The old essences can live right where they are until I start to run low of one stack and then I can convert another stack. Heck, I could handle 24 clicks at once, if I were so inclined. And this is a lot, lot, LOT simpler than recoding bags (which would likely have to start from scratch). Now, if they were ever to redo bags so you could label them, well,that'd be a good time to look into recoding the number of stacks of each type allowed.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

They are removing choices, which is BAD game design. How so? Sure, *most* just use the craftable property to lower the min level, but we can *choose* to put other effects on these items. Limiting what we can do, and calling it NEW and improved, is why the game declines and doesn't ascend.

I... what? I'm confused. This is like two separate arguments. We can lower the ML, AND we can put other effects on these items. It's not like we're forced to *choose* between them. You want multiple effects? Great. Put a prefix and a suffix on... AND use the Shard of Master Craftsmanship I to lower the ML by 2.

[Chacka_DDO]

It's less that they can't, more they don't want to. Which I, for one, appreciate.

My crafter currently has a Colossal Ingredients Bag. She has full stacks - 10K - of just about everything. That's 24 stacks (12 greater, 12 lesser) of 10K essences. Assuming a 5:1 conversion for the lessers (as well as the already-listed 1:1 for greaters and a stack size of 10K), that'll be 12 stacks of the new essence from the greaters and 2.4 from the lessers. That's (effectively) 15 stacks... only one of which will now go into the bag. The other 14 stacks will be going into my inventory. (Not to mention the overflow currently in my shared bank.... which yes, may well combine down to the point where I could probably put all those excess stacks into the bank, but still. Not really the point.)

I don't want this.

So not auto-converting? This is a GOOD thing. And NoWorries has confirmed (in both crafting threads, but here's the link for the one in this one) that there would be multiple recipes for conversion, so you won't have to click so many times. I imagine it'll go up to at least 10K at once.

I can handle 24 clicks over a period of time, since there's no real need to convert everything at once. The old essences can live right where they are until I start to run low of one stack and then I can convert another stack. Heck, I could handle 24 clicks at once, if I were so inclined. And this is a lot, lot, LOT simpler than recoding bags (which would likely have to start from scratch). Now, if they were ever to redo bags so you could label them, well,that'd be a good time to look into recoding the number of stacks of each type allowed.

I said you can change the bags that way that they can handle several stacks of the same item much like the Crafting Storage do. This way you don't have any stack going into your inventory.
It's recommend to read all.
There is no reason to not do an automatically change if you can and it is better in any case!
If you have no use for the old versions, beside the conversion to the new version by hand, why should I have not the new version right now and all at once?
This are just excuses or a sign of the incapacity to do the right steps.

And to be honest, you sounds like someone who would tell exactly the opposite if a developer would proclaim an automatically change. And you would have everything at its place after the patch, without inventory overflow or something.

Just to mention it, I have to handle 350 stacks of lesser essences (10k each) and 275 stacks of greater essences (1k each) and therefore I am far beyond the point I would use bags to handle them.
And I am thankful they introduced the account Crafting Storage!

I am very pessimistic there will be an automatically change because its predictable they go the cheap and easy way. But at least I don't miss the chance to say, this is not something I cheer for.

I know this is only something with a tiny effect for the system performance but you still have additional code running. This most likely until DDO dies and if you have the policy to always go this way, it add up over time and you have a bad system performance at the end, just only because you have a lot old useless code running.

The bag change I suggested, would be clearly an improvement for the game not only to make a conversation possible.
But the whole bag system could be changed to a character Crafting Storage and then you could remove all different kinds of bags from the game.
The bag rename thing might appear as a good idea, but is only some kind of handling a bad system.
The account Crafting Storage is a quite good model, just some kind of organization inside, similar to the collectables bag, could be nice.
Therefore also here, replace the old system with a better new one and you get a better system performance and a better handing of the game for the players over time.
This is how evolution works, if the nature would handle it in the same way as DDO do, you would have five different noses in your face or something.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

I see that you mention "Aligned" within Cannith Crafting, but to be clear:
- Will this include both Holy and Pure Good? We need Holy to stay in game (higher damage).
- What about Evil also? For a neutral character, this is an option and works for some quests.

[Cantor]

I... what? I'm confused. This is like two separate arguments. We can lower the ML, AND we can put other effects on these items. It's not like we're forced to *choose* between them. You want multiple effects? Great. Put a prefix and a suffix on... AND use the Shard of Master Craftsmanship I to lower the ML by 2.

You don't understand the difference in the old and the new system. In the current system to max something at a low ML it has to be the only thing on the shard and have MC. The ML required for 2 effects on the current system will allow 3 effects and a augment in the new system and have higher stats on all the effects to boot, even without MC.

[JoyfulEagle]

Some people have expressed concern (and I myself have worried) about loosing Masterful Craftsmanship to lower the level of an item. However, I believe there is something to compensate for it in some (not all) cases.

For example, if you could craft a girdle with Strength +6 at level 9 with MC before, you could now craft a girdle with Strength +5 and (bonus) Insightful Strength +1, PLUS another effect on the same item at 9th level.

I am unsure about the exact levels of the new items, but my point is that you get the benefit you had before and more because of insightful bonus slots that you gain with Mark of House Cannith.

However, this doesn't work for everything. For example, Deathblock could be crafted with MC to be usable at level 2 (on a shield). Now, you would presumably have to wait to a higher level. I also used MC to lower the initial level of Rune Arms. That's probably not going to work in the new system. (Time to create twink RAs).

Nevertheless, I believe the overall effect of the new crafting will allow us to make more powerful items, and thus make our characters more powerful. I don't like Monty Hall game progression (well, maybe a just a little ). But, it is inevitable, in order to make the game continue to be interesting. I just hope it is done slowly enough that the game doesn't become boring from being too easy, especially in the older content.

Someone else posted this link on a previous page, and it is worth repeating, because it shows what things are now prefixes/suffixes/bonus for each item type (and it is different than the old system): Update_29_randomly_generated_loot

[JoyfulEagle]

I don't like the idea of having even more collectables, but understand the need to add some.

"Collectables will be used in all the crafting recipes. To help fill out the range of collectables, new ones will be created that drop in the higher levels and drop in both FR and Eberron."

It seems to me that the "higher levels" would be to make the higher level ML items. That would probably be a relatively small number of items.

For the various new effects, and for some older effects that didn't require collectables in the past,
I definitely like the idea of reusing collectables that already exist for other types of crafting (eg the ones for IQ crafting). It would be a good reason to run some content that I almost never run. Additionally, it isn't requiring me to buy an even bigger collectables bag, since I already have a few of each of those items taking a slot anyway.

Alternatively (or additionally), give everyone more free shared crafting bank space to offset the extra new collectables.

EDIT: It occurs to me that the other crafting collectables (like for IQ crafting) are not technically "collectables" (red bag). They are "crafting" items (green bag). I am not sure if that would be a programming and consistency issue.

[JoyfulEagle]

Consideration is being made of adding Good Luck into random loot and having it be craftable. Same goes with Shattermantle. UWA will likely be added to random loot.

This isn't as clear as it could be. Is there some chance that Good Luck will not be craftable? (It didn't show up in the crafting list. So, I want to be sure we can still craft it.)

Unless I am blind then it seems that Speed is NOT craftable and on top of that Striding isn't even listed? Just do away with Striding and allow Speed to be craftable, you have already allowed Deadly and Seeker which are more powerful than Speed is by a long way! Add Ghostbane to craftable and lootgen and remove Ghost Touch.

CC needs speed or at the very least striding

I am a crafter. So, I want to be able to craft everything. However, I understand the need to keep random loot meaningful. Nevertheless, we had Striding in the past and it is important to keep at least that. If you are eliminating Striding, then please give us it's replacement (Speed).

[azrael4h]

I see that you mention "Aligned" within Cannith Crafting, but to be clear:
- Will this include both Holy and Pure Good? We need Holy to stay in game (higher damage).
- What about Evil also? For a neutral character, this is an option and works for some quests.

Good and Evil damage are included; they scale like all other elemental damage bonuses. So a weapon with a good effect at say ML15 adds 3d6 good damage (numbers are guessed, I don't know the exact numbers). The issue with current loot gen is that these do not add the damage properties to the weapon so that they break DR. So being able to craft basic good/evil damage is worthless, as they do not break DR, and noworries has pretty well ignored the fact that they are broken.

[EmGreen]

I know players have been awaiting more information on the Cannith Crafting Revamp, so without further ado let's jump right in.

....

Below is a list of effects exclusive to both Random loot and Cannith crafting. Note: This does not include clickies.

Random:
Vorpal
Speed
Paralyzing
UMD boost
Banishing
Disruption
Smiting
Destruction
Ghostbane (being readded into the random loot system)

....

Collectables

Collectables will be used in all the crafting recipes. To help fill out the range of collectables, new ones will be created that drop in the higher levels and drop in both FR and Eberron. Exactly which collectables and how many per recipe is still being designed.

Purified Dragon Shards will still be used as well.

We are creating a scaling treasure system for collectables. The tiers will be broken down into 5 level ranges and the collectable device in a dungeon will automatically check the level of the dungeon and pull from the correct tier. So if you were to run a level 5 quest on normal, you'd get the level 1-5 tier collectables, if you ran it on hard, you'd get the 6-10 tier collectables. And if you were to run those on epic difficulty, you'd get the higher tiers as well. We will be adding collectables to FR as well, with the Eberron related lore ones removed (so no Soarwood for example).


As always, everything above is subject to change for any number of reasons.

Please, please reconsider putting speed on the list of non-craftables. You don't have striding as a craftable effect either, so players are not going to be able to craft any run speed items. I don't see what restricting this does for game mechanics, especially when melee and ranged attack speed is craftable, but I can think of a lot of ways that not having it as craftable is frustrating. Not being able to fit run speed on crafted items is just flat-out annoying. Not being able to move as fast as the rest of the party is a real killer for the morale of newer players especially, and not being able to craft something for them makes things tougher for retaining them/helping them out.
I notice also that all of the restricted to loot-gen affixes are melee focused only...

Level tier'ed collectibles: This is gonna have negative consequences for people who only play epics/only do iconic lives (a sizeable part of the population in my experience) - they will be reliant on other people putting things on the AH, or will have to re-run low lvl content for nothing other than collectibles. Perhaps include an exchange mechanism (like in Crystal Cove) where 5 or 10 of one type can be swapped for another?

As part of the crafting update can you also please look at some related things:

Crafting Storage in the Bank
* When you buy more spaces for it from the DDO store, the graphics telling you how many spaces are full out of how many max do not increase to fix the extra digits - so the counter is not fully readable. I have 1,600 spaces full of ??? some unknown maximum - so I don't know if/when it is full, if/when I need to buy more spaces etc.
* Collectables (everything that goes in a red bag) are not stackable in high enough amounts. They currently stack in the crafting storage in stacks of 99, but in a bag they stack in 1000 or more. And green bag items stack in crafting storage in much higher stack sizes, so it seems like an oversight that red bag collectibles don't stack as high as well in the bank crafting storage.

New Prefix/suffixes:
* Good, Chaotic, etc still do not confer corresponding damage flags for breaking DR. Please fix this.
* According to the information posted on the forums when the new item system went live on lammania sheltering should spawn on armour. I have never seen it spawn, and have never found a loot gen item on the auction house with it. Can this please be fixed.
* There are still a few +0 prefix/suffixes still spawning on items. Since the fixes to this I have seen:
insightful magical sheltering, on bracers, min lvl 4 item
insightful use magic device, on goggles, min lvl 13 item
insightful use magic device, on goggles, min lvl 10 item

[Aletys]

~snip!

Consideration is being made of adding Good Luck into random loot and having it be craftable. Same goes with Shattermantle. UWA will likely be added to random loot.

Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.

Removers

There will be a singular remover which will award a range of essences based on the ML of the item being deconstructed. We are also looking into Mass Deconstruction, so there is a possibility of an even better system such as a deconstruct all. We are not at the point to say how possible this will be yet.

~snip~

Please do make Good Luck craftable, it is craftable now and should not be removed. Speed should be craftable, there's no reason for it not to be craftable. Please do not remove what we currently have, and that includes both the properties we can apply and Flexible shards. Flexible shards are extremely valuable when you have a hole in your gear that cannot be filled because your named/random lootgen gear is using that slot. Your concern that it will invalidate random loot just doesn't cut it ... if I can find it in lootgen, I'm not going to take the extra time it will require to craft something, login/logout to transfer it to the right toon etc., I'll just buy it off the auction house if I don't already have it. Right now, most of the loot I pick up in quests is vendor trash, because of the absolutely ridiculous combinations that drop, and nerfing CC is not going to stop that: Weapons that should break alignment DR do not, caster properties are applied to weapons that will likely never be used by a caster, the rarity of melee/ranged weapons with properties that actually do damage, etc. I had to craft an aligned great xbow for one of my toons to use against the Inevitable in Legendary Tempest Spine because I simply could not find a DR breaker for her to use.

I do hope you will provide a quick and easy way to convert the old essences for the new one, but have a concern because the deconstruction of multiple shards (of the same kind), which is allowed with the current CC appears to be broken:

I started deconning my already fabricated shards to recover the essences from them, since they will not be useable with the new system, and have discovered a glitch. Right now, if you have multiples of the same shard, you can drop it into the window and change the no. to match the no. of shards placed in the machine (similar to how you trade gems in Crystal Cove's crafting interface). Then when I pressed the deconstruct button, it goes through each shard to deconstruct it. Unfortunately, it only decons the first shard and gives a "crafting failure" message on the screen for the rest of the shards. The general tab shows "x" shards put into the machine, but only 1 shard deconstructed, and only the essences from that shard go into my bag. If I deconstruct each shard one at a time, there are no failures, and I get all the essences. To my knowledge, deconning has never failed in the past (and my crafter is between 147 & 150 on all schools). So, before setting up the system for converting old essences to new, please, please make sure that this bug doesn't make it over to the new system.

I am also concerned about the max size of stacks of the new essences you are proposing. I am close to 10,000 on most of the greater essences, and have multiples of 10,000's on all the lesser essences. Since there are 12 lesser & 12 greater essences, when that's easily 100,000+ essences (and I know other crafters who have way more than that). Currently the ingredient bags will only hold a single stack of the same item. Either that needs to be changed to allow multiple stacks in a bag, or the max size of the stack needs to be increased to accommodate the amounts that are going to be created. Otherwise many of us are going to be in an inventory overflow condition. As far as collectibles go, the stack size on those bags needs to be increased to at least 10,000.

[Chacka_DDO]

Crafting Storage in the Bank
* When you buy more spaces for it from the DDO store, the graphics telling you how many spaces are full out of how many max do not increase to fix the extra digits - so the counter is not fully readable. I have 1,600 spaces full of ??? some unknown maximum - so I don't know if/when it is full, if/when I need to buy more spaces etc.
* Collectables (everything that goes in a red bag) are not stackable in high enough amounts. They currently stack in the crafting storage in stacks of 99, but in a bag they stack in 1000 or more. And green bag items stack in crafting storage in much higher stack sizes, so it seems like an oversight that red bag collectibles don't stack as high as well in the bank crafting storage.

The rule is quite clear, the maximum stack size of items in the account Crafting Storage is equal to the maximum stack size in your inventory.
The rule for bags is different, there the maximum stacking size of the bag is the limit. Therefore you can stack the same items in bags up to 10k.



I posted something similar already one year ago in Suggestion and Ideas (I have the slight impression no one read this anyway) and I guess I am not the only one who told you this issue.
So please once again: remove this artificial limit and unnecessary restriction in the account Crafting Storage!

[JoyfulEagle]

The rule is quite clear, the maximum stack size of items in the account Crafting Storage is equal to the maximum stack size in your inventory.
The rule for bags is different, there the maximum stacking size of the bag is the limit. Therefore you can stack the same items in bags up to 10k.

....

So please once again: remove this artificial limit and unnecessary restriction in the account Crafting Storage!

Also, Mark of House Cannith can only stack to 10 in inventory and in the shared crafting bank. I bought 300, and it took 30 slots in the shared bank.

Can this please be changed to a reasonable number (like 1000)?

Thanks

[JOTMON]

Also, Mark of House Cannith can only stack to 10 in inventory and in the shared crafting bank. I bought 300, and it took 30 slots in the shared bank.

Can this please be changed to a reasonable number (like 1000)?

Thanks

I always believed they royally screwed up with the shared bag deposit box.

How is it that the Shared bag Deposit Box.. the collective repository that is supposed to be the place to empty our bags across the account into .. has a smaller stack size than bags..
Shared Bag Deposit Box should stack to 100,000 of each item... anything less is asinine.
I should be able to fully empty all my bags from all my toons into this location.. not use it as a transfer medium to deposit from here into multiple bags on a storage toon.

[Stoner81]

Then it sounds like you are all set with legacy twink items.

No not really there is a fair bit of kit I am going to make before the system changes just in case.

Personally, I've never felt enough need for heavy fort at level 7 to bother. Or GFL at that level, as it means the item needs to be clean. Frankly, I generally don't bother crafting anything between start up gear and level 9 and that simply because it's where top stat masterful shards mostly kick in, than any real need. It's hardly worth the time to swap the gear, much less craft it.

Heavy Fort and GFL are fairly expensive recipes in that they require a collectible from a pita pack (Threnal for both I think?) hence why making them BTA is the best (imho) solution since you make it once and you are done

For example, if you could craft a girdle with Strength +6 at level 9 with MC before, you could now craft a girdle with Strength +5 and (bonus) Insightful Strength +1, PLUS another effect on the same item at 9th level.

If this is indeed the case then I could live with that however, losing Masterful Craftsmanship shards will still effect the Cannith Challenge gear and Crystal Cove gear along with Rune Arms so hopefully we get a bone thrown to us about these items.

Stoner81.

[JOTMON]

Since Banes are still going to be craftable I would think they will still use soul gems but I too would like to know for sure.

As for ML of affixes...There is none except for the crafting level. The ML is applied to the item and the affixes adjust to the value for that ML (As far as I understand it at least).

Soulstones.. another system that got under utilized and left unfinished.. and full of flaws...

still issues with trap the soul going back to the beginning of time...
~we have a whole list of trappable souls and only a few are actually usable..there is a large level range of trapped souls that are unusable.
...cant use higher level souls to craft lower level items.. overlevel farming CR7 earth elementals gets boring fast while throwing away the higher CR earth elemental souls due to worthlessness...

~Trap the soul spell it self is screwed.. caps out cr 30..low level epics. becomes a pointless spell that is only swapped in when hunting earth elementals..

~Khyber Dragonshard fragments are a [expletive] PITA to crunch into the stone of change with the asinine slow crunch mechanic and limited stack size at crunching.
.. They have got to fix this some day..

~ they don't autogather into the inventory of the caster. they drop on the ground where many of them are not able to be picked up
another stupid mechanic of not autogathering.. now we cant cast it on mobs on ledges or pillars or on lava, or any other location that is not accessible.

~another reason to solo.. soulstones get scooped up by other party memberss.. [expletive]...

[Ziindarax]

Deathblock should, in my opinion, be craftable at lower levels considering you can already drink deathward potions as early as level 1 (yes, level 1; there's no ML on the eternal or regular DW potions).

Still, I agree that Masterful Craftsmanship shards should remain to allow the lowering of ML, even if it requires crafting at the maximum level.

Some people have expressed concern (and I myself have worried) about loosing Masterful Craftsmanship to lower the level of an item. However, I believe there is something to compensate for it in some (not all) cases.

For example, if you could craft a girdle with Strength +6 at level 9 with MC before, you could now craft a girdle with Strength +5 and (bonus) Insightful Strength +1, PLUS another effect on the same item at 9th level.

I am unsure about the exact levels of the new items, but my point is that you get the benefit you had before and more because of insightful bonus slots that you gain with Mark of House Cannith.

However, this doesn't work for everything. For example, Deathblock could be crafted with MC to be usable at level 2 (on a shield). Now, you would presumably have to wait to a higher level. I also used MC to lower the initial level of Rune Arms. That's probably not going to work in the new system. (Time to create twink RAs).

Nevertheless, I believe the overall effect of the new crafting will allow us to make more powerful items, and thus make our characters more powerful. I don't like Monty Hall game progression (well, maybe a just a little ). But, it is inevitable, in order to make the game continue to be interesting. I just hope it is done slowly enough that the game doesn't become boring from being too easy, especially in the older content.

Someone else posted this link on a previous page, and it is worth repeating, because it shows what things are now prefixes/suffixes/bonus for each item type (and it is different than the old system): Update_29_randomly_generated_loot

[JOTMON]

There are not prefix or suffix shards. However, an effect can still only go in a particular prefix, suffix, or extra slot given the item type.

regardless of the semantics ..There is currently a lot of texting confusion..
.. can you ensure that texting for effects that can only be slotted in prefix are clearly defined in the description that it is a PREFIX only slottable, and the same for SUFFIX and EXTRA..
(even though I don't personally think the 'extra' effect should be craftable.. that is something that should be ingrained in the found randomgen items.. like augment slots)..