Cannith Crafting Discussion - Part 2

[Calinthus]

I truly hate to sound the DOOM horn, but, this....... It is likely the death of Crafting.

[Ahwaric]

Do Holy/Evil/Law/Chaos damages now apply/break the appropriate damage reduction?

THIS. Random loot is currently broken in that regard, so Cannith crafting is the only way to get non-named good-aligned weapon (I mean the flag for the physical damage, not the bonus damage).
It is the high time it for it be fixed for random loot, but if not, at least let us still craft it.

I also fully support that Feather Fall, Underwater Action and similar effects should be craftable - they are simply quality of life effects, not overpowered ones. You can use spell or temporaly switch to other items (even some low level ones have it), but crafting lets us to add it to another item and save unnecessary clicking.

Regarding general design:
- while I agree that there are too many types of essences, reducing them to just one is too much. I understand it is simpler to code, but instead of having many essences, we will have more collectables to compensate. If you are going to leave just one essence, it is better to just remove it altogether and base everything on collectables (which I personally would not like). One essence would just force us to mindlessly deconstruct, while not giving any choice. Why bother with the deconstructing system at all then?
I think it would be better to simplify the current system into 3 types of essences (divine, elemental, arcane). It would add some flexibility and get us at least some choice.

- currently we can create an item with one strong effect (or one strong one weak), thus reducing its minimum level. It allows for a lot of flexibility - I can decide to wear an item with one stronger effect or two weaker ones. After the change it will not be possible, as the strength of the effects is dependent on the ML. Again, it simplifies it a lot - oversimplifies IMHO.

In short, I fear the direction the Cannith Crafting is going to change - instead of overcomplicated system, we will get one that is simpler, but much less flexible & useful. I hope some changes can still be done.

[Dragavon]

I truly hate to sound the DOOM horn, but, this....... It is likely the death of Crafting.

Why?

We will be able to make better and more powerful items than we can today.

If you have capped all 3 schools today then you will be level 260 after the update, and able to make min lvl 26 items immedeately.

Augment slots will not increase minimum level on items anymore.

How can any of this be negative?

[DYWYPI]

All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.

[I'll ignore they'll be 3 Slots at certain levels, as that's not really what I'm focusing upon in this post when I mean 'flexibility', its more the matrix of what effects can be placed on which specific items.]

We will be able to potentially make Epic items albeit it doesn't necessarily mean the lower level heroic items will be as flexible or even able to fill specific equipment niches (if they remove certain useful effects).

I have little concern about what happens to the high-end Epic level "NoWorries Cannith Crafted" items. My bigger concern; is mostly regarding the lower level items, and the new system possibly restricting some diversity (compatibility about what effect is allowed to be applied where and on which item) in comparison with the current system.

Currently Cannith Crafting has different options but successfully serves a limited purpose (niche) at lower levels. Really, it's still looking like the 'New Random Loot' system doesn't gel well with current Cannith Crafting; we're still getting predictions; it will scale too much at higher levels and at the lowest-end be mostly subpar...

Hence there's significant stargazing at top tier items, when actually the lowest end items are left in a potentially worse state with the proposed system.

NoWorries, I can understand you're in a straightjacket so perhaps the reason you haven't been able to publicly comment on some aspects or respond to the more practical questions. Rather than mostly just reiterating what you've already said in Part 1, I could pull and lace this post with several quotes from your first thread replies to support that point. Nonetheless, I shall presume you are introducing new Collectable Bags to be given away free by NPCs or by Favour rewards, again you won't likely be able to freely comment?

Because I don't need to tell you there already at least 41 Cannith Collectables. The Small Collectables Bag is given out by NPCs, and the 'Exclusive' Medium Collectables Bag (easily purchased with enough Platinum pieces) and as it so happens that's only 42 slots... And you're seriously planning to introduce more Cannith Collectables; it's not going to be "exploding Ingredients Bags". But Free-to-play Players that are likely going to have major problems storing those additional Cannith Collectables. I could wrongly conclude going with one school, was for commercial gains though DDO Store bag sales of course that would be folly. Nonetheless, I do hope you'll address the problem. :-)

[JOTMON]

~snip~
Nonetheless, I shall presume you are introducing new Collectable Bags to be given away free by NPCs or by Favour rewards, again you won't likely be able to freely comment?

Because I don't need to tell you there already at least 41 Cannith Collectables. The Small Collectables Bag is given out by NPCs, and the 'Exclusive' Medium Collectables Bag (easily purchased with enough Platinum pieces) and as it so happens that's only 42 slots... And you're seriously planning to introduce more Cannith Collectables; it's not going to be "exploding Ingredients Bags". But Free-to-play Players that are likely going to have major problems storing those additional Cannith Collectables. I could wrongly conclude going with one school, was for commercial gains though DDO Store bag sales of course that would be folly. Nonetheless, I do hope you'll address the problem. :-)

I do have a concern with the bags.
a crafting bag would be handy,
but there does need to be more done here...


I aggressively collect any collectibles, ingredients, crafting ingredients.. whatever.. I am a loot hoar..
I am already overflowing the bags I have and I have purchased DDO store bags. (I have already purchased every size bag available from the DDO store and in many cases multiple bags)

problem is..
in most of cases I cant dump my entire bag into the bag deposit box..
I periodically pool all my ingredients to my crafting toon, and try to use the bag deposit box.. but it is nonsense..
I have the standard 45 slots for being a VIP which is fine.. and have purchased 1 block of an additional 250 slots..
the number of slots is not the issue, I can always buy more blocks of 250ea for the over priced 795TP times 8~~! (thieving [expletive])..

Its the slots themselves.. they stack in a screwed up way..
they stack based on what can stack in inventory not what stacks in the bags ( My colossal bags stack to 10,000 with 1,000 unique items)..
many things don't stack..things like inspired quarter crystal disks.. don't stack outside of the bag..

So instead of using the bag deposit box as the stop station repository to gather and pool all my ingredients..
It becomes a transfer station that I have to keep emptying into bags..
In some cases its actually easier to use a large unbound ingredient bag through the regular bank..
This needs to be fixed..
The bag deposit box should stack anything to 100,000... and for some things. .even higher.. dragonshard fragments for instance...
Its supposed to be the 'bag deposit box'.. I should be able to dump all my bags into it...

I want an actual usable bag deposit storage box..
not...



Especially now that Cannith ingredients are being consolidated and we are getting additional ingredients to be collected..

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Is ANYBODY happy that more collectables are being added?

Um.....yay?

[Ulfo]

In the current system Trinkets are considered rings, I'dd recon it will be the same for the new Crafting.

You cannot add Efficient Metamagic shards to rings, so no, trinkets not considired rings. 8)

[Ulfo]

Sorry I didn't read through the whole thing, but if it has not been mentioned, wouldn't the best exchange rate be the one that is already in place when converting?

Really, no. Ever hear about efficiency coefficient? I'm think about 10:1, not 5:1 conversion rate. 8)

[Ulfo]

Devs currently hope what augment slots will not increase minimum level on items anymore.

Fixed for you, 8)

[Uska]

Is ANYBODY happy that more collectables are being added?

Um.....yay?

I don't craft and I don't like it more junk to toss out of my inventory

[JOTMON]

I don't craft and I don't like it more junk to toss out of my inventory

hmm.. opportunity for a garbage bag with an autotrash filter list... repair kits, bolts, non-returning throwing weapons, other assorted junk
..a miniature fiend warlock in the bottom of the bag casting hurl through hell on your trash...

[Aelonwy]

Also, nobody EVER said flexible shards were a dead deal, last I heard it was at least under consideration at some stage, and haven't heard anymore since. Everyone assumes these things just because they aren't mentioned, that they're not going to happen.

I believe the assumptions that flexible shards are going extinct stem from these quotes (bolded for emphasis):

Although Cannith will follow the slot restrictions of effects that Random Loot has, a player does get to choose which effects go on the slots of the item. This is a big advantage of random loot where you have to luck out in the RNG to get all of the effects you want at the powers you want. The system will still have a Prefix and Suffix. If a Mark of House Cannith is used, it will have a 3rd extra effect just like Random Loot.

Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

No. A shard won't be defined as prefix/suffix/extra. However each slot of gear has very specific effects which can go in prefix/suffix/extra. You can't just slot the shards wherever you want.

The first quote is from the original post of the first Cannith Crafting Discussion, the second from page 15 of this thread. I searched but found nothing by a dev that flexible shards were staying with Cannith Crafting. I understand wanting to be optimistic, but the devs have had two threads to easily refute assumptions that flexible shards were going away, that is 26 +17 pages at this point. Unfortunately, I think one of the most useful aspects of current Cannith Crafting, ie the flexibility is taking a sharp nose-dive.

More troubling, to me at least is they have also had these same 26 + 17 pages to address the issue of random loot not applying appropriate DR and we have heard nothing. Not even a "it's being looked into" or "we're working on it" or "we're aware of the issue." Nothing. Which is discouraging at best.

[Saekee]

I know players have been awaiting more information on the Cannith Crafting Revamp, so without further ado let's jump right in.

Part I of the discussion, with additional information not repeated in this post, can be found here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ing-Discussion


All items created with old Cannith Crafting will remain as is when the new system goes in. However, all of the old recipes will be gone at that time.



Single School

Cannith will be down to a single school - currently know as... Cannith!
The school with have a level cap of 400, and all XP will carry over from the original 3 schools.
The lower levels of the school have had their xp curve adjusted. Here are some XP values for getting to different levels in the new school (could change before launch)


Level 50: 1,256
Level 100: 7,313
Level 150: 30,151
Level 260: 245,580
Level 340: 472,752
Level 400: 650,040


The Treasure Level of Cannith will likely end up capping at what would be ML 34, instead of ML 33 as previously mentioned.



Crafting Difficulty

Minimum Level shards will be their level x 10 for their crafting difficulty (which the exception of ML 1 which will be difficulty 1). Unbound versions will be their level x 10 + 50.


Example:
ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 200 difficulty
Unbound ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 250 difficulty


The plan is to divide the scaling effects from random loot into 3 crafting groups.


The lowest group would be difficulty 1, the second group would be difficulty 50, and the final group would be difficulty 100.
Unbound would be +150 so 150, 200, 250
Insightful would be +175 so 175, 225, 275
which means unbound insightful would be 325, 375, 425


Since non scaling effects also don't have insightful versions, they will fall in different places along the crafting curve. The above is for the normal scaling effects only.


Crafting Groups:

Group 1:
Guards
False Life
Wizardry
Enchantment Resist
Illusion Resist
Poison Ward
Disease Ward
Will Save
Reflex Save
Fortitude Save
Damage Resistances (fire, acid, cold, etc.)
Skills
Fortification
Incite
Diversion


Group 2 (50):
Negative/Repair/Healing Amp
Absorptions
Parrying
Dodge Bonus
Accuracy
Deadly
Seeker
Shield Bashing
Armor-Piercing
Spell Focuses
Tendon Slice
Vertigo
Stunning
Shatter
Stat Poisons
Spell Pen
Spell Powers
Weapon Damages
Creature Banes


Group 3(100):
Attributes
Spell Saves
Resistance
Riposte
Sheltering
Doublestrike
Doubleshot
Assassinate
Combat Mastery
Melee/Ranged Alacrity
Potency
Weapon Crit Damages
Weapon DRs (good, evil etc)
Spell Lores
Vampirism


Natural Armor is considered insightful so it would show up in the first insightful tier.


Exclusive Effects:

Below is a list of effects exclusive to both Random loot and Cannith crafting. Note: This does not include clickies.

Random:
Vorpal
Speed
Paralyzing
UMD boost
Banishing
Disruption
Smiting
Destruction
Ghostbane (being readded into the random loot system)


Cannith:
Metalline
Alligned
Everbright
Blueshine
Ghost Touch
Invulnerability
Vengeful
Unbalancing
Twilight
Lesser Arcane Spell Dexterity
Songblade
Slowburst/Improved Slowburst
Regeneration
Persuasion
Fearsome
Silver Flame/Sacred/Eternal Faith
Efficient Metamagic
Blindness Immunity
True Seeing


Consideration is being made of adding Good Luck into random loot and having it be craftable. Same goes with Shattermantle. UWA will likely be added to random loot.


Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.


Removers

There will be a singular remover which will award a range of essences based on the ML of the item being deconstructed. We are also looking into Mass Deconstruction, so there is a possibility of an even better system such as a deconstruct all. We are not at the point to say how possible this will be yet.


Disjunction will still exist and will prep the item for new Cannith crafting (items previously disjuncted with the old system would need to have disjunction applied again to set them up to be used with the new system).


Collectables

Collectables will be used in all the crafting recipes. To help fill out the range of collectables, new ones will be created that drop in the higher levels and drop in both FR and Eberron. Exactly which collectables and how many per recipe is still being designed.

Purified Dragon Shards will still be used as well.

We are creating a scaling treasure system for collectables. The tiers will be broken down into 5 level ranges and the collectable device in a dungeon will automatically check the level of the dungeon and pull from the correct tier. So if you were to run a level 5 quest on normal, you'd get the level 1-5 tier collectables, if you ran it on hard, you'd get the 6-10 tier collectables. And if you were to run those on epic difficulty, you'd get the higher tiers as well. We will be adding collectables to FR as well, with the Eberron related lore ones removed (so no Soarwood for example).


As always, everything above is subject to change for any number of reasons.

Vorpal weapons once were only on slashing melee weapons. Please bring back this restriction.

[Uska]

hmm.. opportunity for a garbage bag with an autotrash filter list... repair kits, bolts, non-returning throwing weapons, other assorted junk
..a miniature fiend warlock in the bottom of the bag casting hurl through hell on your trash...

yeah if you could flag certain things for automatic disposal and not have them show up in your buy back area

[Uska]

Vorpal weapons once were only on slashing melee weapons. Please bring back this restriction.

Well I could see allowing thrown slashing weapons

[Saekee]

Well I could see allowing thrown slashing weapons

fair point!

[LrdSlvrhnd]

You are misreading NoWorries answer. NoWorries specifically states that "You can't just slot the shards wherever you want". She's saying that each shard will be able to go in one of those 3 slots on a particular gear item (say a hat or a ring). Not that you can put it in any slot on a gear item.

Look at this page, which lists what properties can go on which gear, and whether it's considered a prefix or a suffix for that gear item, to see what the restrictions will be. I don't think you'll be happy. It's far more restrictive for skills and for rings than the current system, and for nearly everything when you consider we currently have flexible shards. Update 29 randomly generated loot

Which is, um.... pretty much exactly what I said? "You can put *this* and *that* on goggles but not on a belt." He also specifically states, in the quote that you yourself quoted, that "A shard won't be defined as prefix/suffix/extra." To repeat: It WILL NOT BE defined as a prefix/suffix/extra. Which, to my mind, translates that you can put three suffices on, or three prefices, or one of one and two of the other, because it won't be defined as prefix/suffix/extra. But you can't put the same stuff on boots, hats, gloves, and belts. But the stuff you can put on a particular item? It won't matter if you do A of B with extra C, or B of A with extra C, or C of B with extra A, or any other combination thereof. Which seems to gel with what I've seen of random loot where I've seen pretty much everything as a prefix *and* a suffix (with a few outliers like Spot which don't seem to have a prefix).

[ZhenBuYaoShi]

I believe the assumptions that flexible shards are going extinct stem from these quotes (bolded for emphasis):





The first quote is from the original post of the first Cannith Crafting Discussion, the second from page 15 of this thread. I searched but found nothing by a dev that flexible shards were staying with Cannith Crafting. I understand wanting to be optimistic, but the devs have had two threads to easily refute assumptions that flexible shards were going away, that is 26 +17 pages at this point. Unfortunately, I think one of the most useful aspects of current Cannith Crafting, ie the flexibility is taking a sharp nose-dive.

More troubling, to me at least is they have also had these same 26 + 17 pages to address the issue of random loot not applying appropriate DR and we have heard nothing. Not even a "it's being looked into" or "we're working on it" or "we're aware of the issue." Nothing. Which is discouraging at best.

I remember this very distinctively, and I thought that someone might try to bring it up as evidence;however, are they not supposed to outline the standard rules for us, because that's all they did. They said, these are the rules. Those same rules applied to CC before, can't put anything anywhere you want. A prefix goes where a prefix goes, which can only go on certain pieces of gear. This notion, has not changed much. Except now it's a 1, 2, 3 slot, there are rules as to what can go where, and now they have changed the rules on what goes on what pieces of gear.

That's all I heard. I didn't see anything about, and flexible shards won't be available anymore. Masterful craftsmanship was fully, and completely explained away. Flexible shards have not been undone by any explanation, or mention. The only thing that most of you have done is make it easier for them to NOT include flexible shards by making the assumption that they were taking it away, so that even if they were planning on doing it, they might as well just not worry about that part of the job if everyone is just going to lay down in defeat when no bullets were ever fired. Why do what you don't have to do?

But, you know what? If you do decide to take out flexible shards, then the resultant effect will be one of nothing, but utter frustration, and disappointment. Have you heard one person not say don't take away flexible shards, if they choose to mention it? No one feels like it's a good idea, none of the players' council people, none of the hardcore crafters, none of the hardcore hardasses that wanted crafting to be less powerful are even saying flexible shards should be in, THAT, should tell you something right there. When you got the naysayers of crafting talking about flexible shards should stay in the system, and everyone that uses the system saying they should stay in the system, then what are you doing? Because, you're not doing it for ANY of us, because NONE of us want it gone and ALL of us, some of us wholeheartedly, want it in. Can you please take us seriously, and not just ignore us when something gets brought up at least a dozen times, because we're the ones that are going to be stuck using this stuff for the next 5 years, our input matters, A LOT! I mean, the stuff you're choosing take your time out to answer are things of no consequence. For example, we're having a discussion, we're having a discussion, then some random person comes on with a question about will the augment apply to the ML of the item, which was explained several posts prior, and the dude just didn't understand, and you see we're having several real discussions about things we find terribly important, and you answer this guy. ***?

[Ykt]

there are ZERO random trinkets that drop in game.

There used to be random trinkets with Woundrous Craftsmanship, wasn't there?

[Coyopa]

So, uhhhhh, NoWorries. Are you ever going to actually update this post to put Feather Falling and Underwater Action on the Cannith list LIKE YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO DO?

I know players have been awaiting more information on the Cannith Crafting Revamp, so without further ado let's jump right in.

Part I of the discussion, with additional information not repeated in this post, can be found here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ing-Discussion


All items created with old Cannith Crafting will remain as is when the new system goes in. However, all of the old recipes will be gone at that time.



Single School

Cannith will be down to a single school - currently know as... Cannith!
The school with have a level cap of 400, and all XP will carry over from the original 3 schools.
The lower levels of the school have had their xp curve adjusted. Here are some XP values for getting to different levels in the new school (could change before launch)


Level 50: 1,256
Level 100: 7,313
Level 150: 30,151
Level 260: 245,580
Level 340: 472,752
Level 400: 650,040


The Treasure Level of Cannith will likely end up capping at what would be ML 34, instead of ML 33 as previously mentioned.



Crafting Difficulty

Minimum Level shards will be their level x 10 for their crafting difficulty (which the exception of ML 1 which will be difficulty 1). Unbound versions will be their level x 10 + 50.


Example:
ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 200 difficulty
Unbound ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 250 difficulty


The plan is to divide the scaling effects from random loot into 3 crafting groups.


The lowest group would be difficulty 1, the second group would be difficulty 50, and the final group would be difficulty 100.
Unbound would be +150 so 150, 200, 250
Insightful would be +175 so 175, 225, 275
which means unbound insightful would be 325, 375, 425


Since non scaling effects also don't have insightful versions, they will fall in different places along the crafting curve. The above is for the normal scaling effects only.


Crafting Groups:

Group 1:
Guards
False Life
Wizardry
Enchantment Resist
Illusion Resist
Poison Ward
Disease Ward
Will Save
Reflex Save
Fortitude Save
Damage Resistances (fire, acid, cold, etc.)
Skills
Fortification
Incite
Diversion


Group 2 (50):
Negative/Repair/Healing Amp
Absorptions
Parrying
Dodge Bonus
Accuracy
Deadly
Seeker
Shield Bashing
Armor-Piercing
Spell Focuses
Tendon Slice
Vertigo
Stunning
Shatter
Stat Poisons
Spell Pen
Spell Powers
Weapon Damages
Creature Banes


Group 3(100):
Attributes
Spell Saves
Resistance
Riposte
Sheltering
Doublestrike
Doubleshot
Assassinate
Combat Mastery
Melee/Ranged Alacrity
Potency
Weapon Crit Damages
Weapon DRs (good, evil etc)
Spell Lores
Vampirism


Natural Armor is considered insightful so it would show up in the first insightful tier.


Exclusive Effects:

Below is a list of effects exclusive to both Random loot and Cannith crafting. Note: This does not include clickies.

Random:
Vorpal
Speed
Paralyzing
UMD boost
Banishing
Disruption
Smiting
Destruction
Ghostbane (being readded into the random loot system)


Cannith:
Metalline
Alligned
Everbright
Blueshine
Ghost Touch
Invulnerability
Vengeful
Unbalancing
Twilight
Lesser Arcane Spell Dexterity
Songblade
Slowburst/Improved Slowburst
Regeneration
Persuasion
Fearsome
Silver Flame/Sacred/Eternal Faith
Efficient Metamagic
Blindness Immunity
True Seeing


Consideration is being made of adding Good Luck into random loot and having it be craftable. Same goes with Shattermantle. UWA will likely be added to random loot.


Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.


Removers

There will be a singular remover which will award a range of essences based on the ML of the item being deconstructed. We are also looking into Mass Deconstruction, so there is a possibility of an even better system such as a deconstruct all. We are not at the point to say how possible this will be yet.


Disjunction will still exist and will prep the item for new Cannith crafting (items previously disjuncted with the old system would need to have disjunction applied again to set them up to be used with the new system).


Collectables

Collectables will be used in all the crafting recipes. To help fill out the range of collectables, new ones will be created that drop in the higher levels and drop in both FR and Eberron. Exactly which collectables and how many per recipe is still being designed.

Purified Dragon Shards will still be used as well.

We are creating a scaling treasure system for collectables. The tiers will be broken down into 5 level ranges and the collectable device in a dungeon will automatically check the level of the dungeon and pull from the correct tier. So if you were to run a level 5 quest on normal, you'd get the level 1-5 tier collectables, if you ran it on hard, you'd get the 6-10 tier collectables. And if you were to run those on epic difficulty, you'd get the higher tiers as well. We will be adding collectables to FR as well, with the Eberron related lore ones removed (so no Soarwood for example).


As always, everything above is subject to change for any number of reasons.