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  1. #41
    Community Member Tinco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    says the game is too easy
    What people say and what people habitually do is not always the same. For example, ...

    they introduced champions
    ...and the outcry was noticeable.

    In DDO's case, it's really a slightly paradox matter. Most of us TR and TR and gear up to make the characters more powerful and the game easier and then wonder when it's finally easy. And only then the realization comes that the fleeing princess was just a dusty, old carrot.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinco View Post
    ...and the outcry was noticeable.

    .
    Actually Turbine has said their data shows players overall are enjoying champions and engaging in the system. Severlin said this in a quote not too long ago.

  3. #43
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    we do know that the devs feel it is atleast a significant portion because they introduced champions, which was not only to give variety but to make the game harder in response to feedback saying the game is too easy.
    Saying "the game is generally a bit easy with all the player power creep, so we wanted to up hard a little and elite a little more" is one segment of power levels addressed.
    Adding "extreme ee" is a different segment of power levels.
    Correlation is not causality.
    Champions were not aimed at "killer dm" issues.

    ToEE doesnt need an extreme challenge to be successful. That some people (include yourself or not as applicable) want there to be greater challenge doesnt mean its healthy for the whole game. In any MMO, indeed every MMO, there are those who are at the top. The game will be easy/easier for them. Those are the people who wait on new "vertical content" to use Sev's term.

    Making EE suddenly extra difficult doesnt provide vertical content, unless the rewards are different. Otherwise it just provides a slower way to do what anyone else can do on EH. See the problem? If they try to please everyone, they please no one. Better to make this GOOD at what it IS, and let another update be true vertical content. Rather than trying to make one quest do the job of lots of updates and coming off half baked to everyone.

    If they split this one out, its going to be a mistake. Only time will tell, but Ive been around MMOs at the top end for a long time across several games. Halfsies isnt going to be a win for anyone, and ToEE needs to be a win. The game cant suffer a fail on this level. They need to go with what is surefooted to get staple content out there. The game needs staple content, badly. As I said only time will show how this plays out, but Im putting my experience on the marker there. Making only one difficulty setting of a high demand, high pressure dungeon "extra challenging" is not a good move. It just shorts both sides of the issue, however many people each side really represents.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.
    I'm not talking about a new difficulty, casual/normal/hard/elite are fine as it is.
    I'm talking about the Heroic/Paragon/Epic/Mythic progression as far as levels goes.
    Heroic is level 1 to 10 = 9 level.
    Paragon is level 11 to 19 = 8 level.
    Epic is level 20 to 27 = 7 level.
    Mythic is level 28 to 34 = 6 level.

    (Did I get the math right?)

  5. #45
    Community Member Tinco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Actually Turbine has said their data shows players overall are enjoying champions and engaging in the system. Severlin said this in a quote not too long ago.
    Yes, that's why I used 'noticeable' (which it was) and not 'overwhelming'.

    Still, my point stands. Content is not run just because it's challenging in general and for me there are a few hints that support my opinion in this:

    Most VIPs I know skip the most difficult quest in a Saga. (Belly, Crucible)
    Actually hard quests are rarely run elite on level. (In the Flesh, Acute/Terminal Delirium, Lord of Eyes)
    Raiding behaviour gravitates towards Nx20 with bypass.
    Boxes and +6 tomes sell nicely.
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  6. #46
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    To be clear, my earlier post was directly in response to whether or not new difficulty should be end game only or across all existing quests. That's a topic of discussion in of itself, as there doesn't appear to be a player consensus (even just in this thread).

    There seemed to be some responses that seem to think I was saying greater difficultly shouldn't be available across all existing quests, or that it should be across all existing quests. Rather, it would be nice to see discussion on the merits of each approach (and to a lesser extent novel ideas on how to implement either one) than just shut down discussion on one or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Have you stopped to consider that this is also a terrible idea?
    Welcome to this discussion. Clearly there's a variety of opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    I'm not talking about a new difficulty, casual/normal/hard/elite are fine as it is.
    Yes, I understood, that's why I responded. Different players are talking about different ideas, both of which are valid. Not everyone believes C/N/H/E are fine, as is apparent from discussion here.

  7. #47
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Not sure why we need a new difficulty when we could do the same with Epic elite, but whatever:

    1) Favors: Killer DM's favors are +1/2/3/whatever number you want compared to HE/EE
    2) Loot: Obviously, loot has to be good and it has to be UNIQUE. But this is pointless since Turbine shifted away from Tiered loot because..reasons.
    3) Mobs: expand the champions idea to every mob. Make them have actually random buffs, every buff having a X% to appear on said mob. Don't make them have from default Adrenaline damage and more HP. The range of buffs would go from: elemental resistances to weapon resistances, from Quad damage to Invisibility, from Super Haste to more Spell power etc etc. Most of the buffs would last for long while the superior ones (like Quad damage) would last way less.
    4) Randomized traps: Traps that can be disabled but also jumped through if you found it (say a party member went in and died, now, with some timing, the whole group can run past it). This way completing a dungeon does NOT require a Rogue.
    5) Sagas for every Killer DM quest/Raid, with increased XP/Renown/Skill and Stat tomes/Augments/Unique pots.

    And make it so that we have more than 2 quests at cap.
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    To be clear, my earlier post was directly in response to whether or not new difficulty should be end game only or across all existing quests. That's a topic of discussion in of itself, as there doesn't appear to be a player consensus (even just in this thread).
    If you're waiting for player consensus...hope your patient...that's going to be a while.

    Cookie and cocktail while waiting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    There seemed to be some responses that seem to think I was saying greater difficultly shouldn't be available across all existing quests, or that it should be across all existing quests. Rather, it would be nice to see discussion on the merits of each approach (and to a lesser extent novel ideas on how to implement either one) than just shut down discussion on one or the other.
    I think for a good debate...perhaps a dev led debate squad over the different options. You could split up the Player's Council into 2 teams Team Varg(one for ALL quests) and Team Sev*(new quests only or maybe limited old/new quests) and let them have at it. After the dust settles, highlight some of the best arguments out of the debate. Take the refined arguments to the forums in two parts, 1 a user survey and 2 a forum topic with the highlights and asking for insights across 2 threads.

    After all that you should have a nice amount of ideas, plethora of maybe civilized(ish) feedback, survey data and you've utilized the council on a long standing issues among the players.


    as a quick thought ^^




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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    ...
    What kinds of rewards would they need to put into a Killer DM Mode that would make it viable for people to want to group and run it for longer than a week? ...
    Nothing will work. If its good loot, then people will "train" so long until it becomes easy (and then some will whine how even this new mode is easy). If its not much better then elite, it will be done once for cool points and never again.


    OK, there's on thing that could work. Boss must be red, it must have wings and it (or chest) drops "scales". This scales must be tradable.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I don't think a killer DM difficulty will ever work.
    Correct which is why they are increasing the difficulty of hard and elite for new content. They don't have to worry about breaking old stuff which are basically just leveling quests anyhow at this point.

    I am happy with the 10x mythic drop rate on EE vs. EH. Not sure why anyone would think it's quicker to run EH 10 times vs. EE once for the same chance at an item. The main reason people run EH GOP is because they don't want to get killed by EE liches or be helpless against an EE doomsphere - not because of drop rate. I got my mythic helm from GOP on EE and never saw it drop once in many more EH runs.

    They aren't likely to offer anything that would compete with store items. It would be nice if these new EEs occasionally dropped super rare cool but not OP unbound items (like jibber's blade) to make the AS farmers happy. I mean SUPER rare like ioun stones used to be back in the day so they sell for alot of AS.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Gargalarg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.
    This is bad news for me

    I really like the idea of mythic difficulty.

    I would prefer it to be across the entire level range because newer content will only last so long, and I don't want to fly through quests anymore.

    I want to have to take time to stop and come up with a strategy, and currently the only time that happens is in high end EE raids.

    It actually gets to the point of frustration when the majority of quests in the game on elite can be completed in under 5 minutes.

    I really hope that the devs reconsider the idea of mythic difficulty.

  12. #52
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Welcome to this discussion. Clearly there's a variety of opinions.
    If youre going to quote only my question to you, could you then answer it?

    I am wondering what was considered when you opted for (whats coming across to me as) non-standard EE increases in now (ToEE) and future (as mentioned elsewhere by you and sev iirc) content? I dont think that is going to provide any better for players than the current model, but clearly you do, so why? For the sake of example: If you broke it down as a 1-10 scale, with 1 as easy and 10 as hard, the current modes might be C/N/H/E are like 1/3/6/8. The new "harder ee" mode might make it like 1/3/6/10 for that quest and future content. For people that want a 10 available everywhere, that doesnt work. And for people that do NOT want a 10 everywhere, its a step in the wrong direction because it removes an option between 6 and 10. Shifting where in the middle you are doesnt change the fact that youre in the middle, and some people say too high and some too low, so what was the perceived advantage of changing the status quo.

    What is the intended feel of this going to be? Is "new ee" going to be "challenging" in the manner regular ee is challenging. Or is this going to be "more than normal" ee, as in a step towards "killer dm" feel. And if so, how are you balancing the aforementioned reward concerns? Or the large gap in power steps that this may create. Or how either of those will interact with a dungeon where obtaining items is, reportedly, going to have random elements making it difficult/impossible to pursue specific goals.

  13. #53
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    We had DM mode back when level cap was 20 and epic quests were indeed epic.

    Quests that you just couldn`t solo as a melee and if you were going in as a caster you were spending most of your time hanging on a ledge letting your firewalls do the trick.

    Timed so you wont be able to bring only your A toon and farm it to death with your EpicTriplesionist.

    No Gimmicks like Fortbypassing,Superdeathwarded,TrueSeeing mobs that will cripple the effectiveness of your instakillers,rogues,CC casters,that guy that did 9 lives for that extra 24PRR or that guy running around in Unyielding Sentinel with 260fort (ewwwwwww i know).
    Even though they would add challenge would also exclude these people when they had their chance to shine again. (I still remember the rogues carried me at Claw sneaking the whole quest or even worse at Chains of Flames or that amazing Mass Hold Caster keeping everything for me).

    Exclude late entries so people can`t just swap their toons to avoid completion similar to the mechanism Challenges have.

    Extremely high trap damage and DCs to make Rogues relevant and not just close your eyes and jump for 100 damage or splash 2 levels of rogue and disable everything.

    None or just one shrine throughout the quest similar to LoB (the elemental shrine doesn`t count)

    Higher chances for Guild amenities (so we can group with our guildies again),higher chances for cosmetics (for those that want SWAG),higher chances to get named loot (6% instead of 3%)
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  14. #54
    Community Member Sehenry03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Not sure why we need a new difficulty when we could do the same with Epic elite, but whatever:

    1) Favors: Killer DM's favors are +1/2/3/whatever number you want compared to HE/EE
    2) Loot: Obviously, loot has to be good and it has to be UNIQUE. But this is pointless since Turbine shifted away from Tiered loot because..reasons.
    3) Mobs: expand the champions idea to every mob. Make them have actually random buffs, every buff having a X% to appear on said mob. Don't make them have from default Adrenaline damage and more HP. The range of buffs would go from: elemental resistances to weapon resistances, from Quad damage to Invisibility, from Super Haste to more Spell power etc etc. Most of the buffs would last for long while the superior ones (like Quad damage) would last way less.
    4) Randomized traps: Traps that can be disabled but also jumped through if you found it (say a party member went in and died, now, with some timing, the whole group can run past it). This way completing a dungeon does NOT require a Rogue.
    5) Sagas for every Killer DM quest/Raid, with increased XP/Renown/Skill and Stat tomes/Augments/Unique pots.

    And make it so that we have more than 2 quests at cap.
    Wizza put it perfectly. We have a good difficulty system in place just tweak it a little. Make favor and loot better on the hardest difficulty to give people a reason to run it EE and not ENx20. Tiered loot was AWESOME. One fo the BEST systems you could do. Each tier was better then the last but not game breakingly better. It was still a reason to run on harder difficulties.

    Random traps...YES PLEASE. If you don't have a rogue make it hit so hard it kills the first person in it but again timing for the rest of the group gets the party past...but having a rogue will get you extra xp plus no deaths as long as the rogue is first.

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  15. #55
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gargalarg View Post
    This is bad news for me

    I really like the idea of mythic difficulty.

    I would prefer it to be across the entire level range because newer content will only last so long, and I don't want to fly through quests anymore.

    I want to have to take time to stop and come up with a strategy, and currently the only time that happens is in high end EE raids.

    It actually gets to the point of frustration when the majority of quests in the game on elite can be completed in under 5 minutes.

    I really hope that the devs reconsider the idea of mythic difficulty.
    Let's try to keep the two concepts separate shall we?

    Mythic = A new End-Game difficulty for Lvl 30+ Characters similar to the old Epic difficulty pre MotU!
    You have to be capable of running EE MoD without dying before even attempting to run these!

    Killer DM = A new Uber difficulty for EVERY Quest in the game - Above and Beyond Elite!
    Triple Completionists who find it boring running Elite Storehouse's secret can now try it on Killer DM mode where the Puzzle acts like the one in Delirium and 50 Sahaugin Champions are constantly attacking you while you attempt to solve it!
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 03-10-2015 at 03:19 PM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Rather, it would be nice to see discussion on the merits of each approach (and to a lesser extent novel ideas on how to implement either one) than just shut down discussion on one or the other.
    Ok, will give it some thoughts and come back on this subject once I have a more constructive answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Yes, I understood, that's why I responded.
    Well, that makes one of the defs (that understands me that is).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Not everyone believes C/N/H/E are fine, as is apparent from discussion here.
    I know, it seems to be the same group (red: type of player) that also asks for end game content.
    I'm wondering if this would be what they're asking for or if it's simply just another bump in the speed race to the top.
    Also what I read from Sev. is that Mythic as a difficulty setting is not going to happen.
    And I sure hope this isn't going to be the flavor of the week and pushed out of the door on a rush.

  17. #57
    Community Member Gargalarg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Let's try to keep the two concepts separate shall we?

    Mythic = A new End-Game difficulty for Lvl 30+ Characters similar to the old Epic difficulty pre MotU!

    Killer DM = A new Uber difficulty for EVERY Quest in the game - Above and Beyond Elite!
    You know what that is an amazing idea i think a difficulty beyond elite has been needed for quite some time now, and too top it off we will have the new "pre motu epic" be mythic GOLDEN!

  18. #58
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Have you stopped to consider that this is also a terrible idea? All difficulty steps are relatively even (as much as is possible given the diverse content involved). Why then, is EE suddenly being "ramped up" in a few spots to be harder?

    Do you think the "Extreme challenge" of terminal delirium was successful? Since its never in an lfm and no one ever wants to run it because its a pain, Id have to say no. Havent even seen anyone with items from it walking around, no one wants to grind in those conditions. Let alone for the poor drop rates nowadays. It can be neat once to go get through it, but no one wants to go back 100 times for items. Certainly not enough for it to be a regular part of peoples content.

    If ToEE befalls the same fate, where EE becomes a non-starter over excessive punitive mechanics, I am going to be furious. And I am sure I will not be alone. The game NEEDS this to work, and work well. I dont think "harder than appropriate" EE, on top of a random dungeon, on top of random loot, is looking like a solution.

    Its going to (potentially) mean spam running overly difficult content, dealing with two kinds of random, and hoping to get what you want early enough to avoid raging out over the poor drop rates. That does not sound like a successful recipe there for game health or player enjoyment. Haunted Halls was extremely successful, but Im getting worried, you guys dont seem to be learning from that success and following in kind. You seem to be going to back to reinventing the wheel for essentially no reason.

    Why. Making it "extra hard" is only going to appease a tiny portion of players who seek challenge, and then only the few times they feel doing one dungeon is amusing. If theyre asking for the whole game to come up, one dungeon isnt going to sate that, its going to be a diversion before they get bored with one dungeon; theyre already bored with a much larger chunk of content one quest wont change that. Making the named/loot randomly located is going to make trying to get specific things done on specific guys much more difficult. The two together sound like its going to be problematic to have goals there at all, unless that goal is to simply take a long time doing a hard dungeon completely for fun factor a few times. That goal, valid though it may be, wont provide longevity of interest or game health.

    We need another staple here. I sincerely hope the difficulty is simply what one would expect for the dungeon level and its place in progression; and not "over done" to be "challenging". And I hope the random named/item factors are still wholly compatible with players hopes to equip certain characters certain ways, without undue hoop jumping in the process. Without both these things, this quest is NOT going to deliver, and the game cannot take more months of this limping along with too-rare items or too-unbalanced quests. The minority will always be dissatisfied, making it hard on everyone to try to appease them is compromising the majority.

    People need to be in the quest, and excited to be in the quest, for it to work. And that means the quest has to be fun, and also be rewarding. Excessive scaling, and randomly located rares/loot-tables, are counter to that. I know its probably too late in the process to change gears, and youll undoubtedly feel like it should go to lama before any changes. Fine. But dont ignore this MMO staple: people need to be present in the content and enjoy the content, and be able to pursue and progress towards item rewards in a concrete fashion, for content to be successful. Be sure this is not overlooked. Please. Thanks.
    Run it on hard. Hopefully, hard on TOEE will be like Elite today, so it will still be a challenge for most of us, and let Elite be for just the powergamers...
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Not sure why we need a new difficulty when we could do the same with Epic elite, but whatever:
    I think the main reason is because increasing the difficulty of current elite content (especially heroic elite) makes XP more difficult to obtain. And I believe the prospect of forcing players to run hard when they have gotten used to running elite upsets a lot of folks.

    That's my guess as to why they've backtracked out of making difficulty changes retroactive via nerfing champions. Introducing a new killer DM mode wouldn't upset players like making elite harder in existing content would.

    Making new content harder going forward is fine though since players have not yet gotten used to that content. Players should be fine with new content being difficult. It's being forced to run existing content on lower difficulties that they've gotten used to stomping through on elite that upsets them. Same reasoning goes for a new killer DM difficulty. It won't upset players since they have no established difficulty expectation for that setting.

    Can't give players candy then take it away from them. However, if they never got that candy in the first place they won't get upset when it's not there.
    Last edited by axel15810; 03-10-2015 at 03:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Killer DM = A new Uber difficulty for EVERY Quest in the game - Above and Beyond Elite!
    Triple Completionists who find it boring running Elite Storehouse's secret can now try it on Killer DM mode where the Puzzle acts like the one in Delirium and 50 Sahaugin Champions are constantly attacking you while you attempt to solve it!
    You understand that we can`t ask them to redesign all the content if we want to have a chance for it to even happen,right?

    Yeah tweaking the invisible crystals to spawn more mobs is possible but random traps and other similar "random" mechanics would just make it so Killer DM would be available in new quests and would lower the quest release time by a fair amount of time.
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