Let's Talk: Killer DM Mode

[hit_fido]

as for the leaderboards i really don't want to see that. that will bring out elitists. no thanks. we need less drama then more.

I'm not sure it will create more drama, perhaps. But if it provides something fun for the players who are looking for (a) more challenge, (b) more reason to group, (c) more reason to stay at cap and get off the "tr treadmill", then some easily ignored forum drama seems a small price to pay.

[mudfud]

A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.

And you don't see a problem with that? While epic elite endgame is all nice, what about making the rest difficult? A Killer DM Mode could encompass anything from lvl 1 quests to endgame.
Nobody wants to sit at endgame. Nobody wants ONLY a challenge at endgame.

[cdbd3rd]

Killer DMs are stingier than regular ones, anyway, right?

Killer DMs don't have to worry about stocking treasure.
The equipment from your dead party members is loot enough.

[Monkey-Boy]

Nobody wants to sit at endgame.

not true, many of use LOVED sitting at end-game back when the cap was 20.

Now there's really now reason, it's TR or log out.

Please give us a reason to stay at cap.

[FranOhmsford]

There's plenty of rewards {mainly cosmetic and quality of life yes} that the Devs could place in a "Killer DM" difficulty level to keep the Ubers playing that difficulty.

But then you run into the REAL ISSUE!

Everyone who CAN play that difficulty WILL be playing that difficulty and no other!

Even Elite will be left by the wayside!

And then what happens to those who actually need groups just to run Elites?

Well they're screwed!



The Devs simply can't just add a difficulty level to every quest in the game like they could add say a "Mythic" End-Game difficulty!

To add your "Killer DM" difficulty they'd have to:
1) Add rewards good enough {cosmetic or Quality of Life rewards would work} to get the Ubers playing said difficulty.
and
2) Make certain that the OTHER difficulties don't become Ghettos!



You also have the problem of who do the Devs aim this so called "Killer DM" difficulty at?

If they aim it only at the Top 1% then too few will be able to run it even in a group and those that can simply won't be able to get a group for it!

If they aim it only at the Top 5% then those that can run it will be forced to form a clique - Either through all joining one or two Guilds OR creating a Passworded User-Channel or Teamspeak/Vent Server.

If they aim it only at the Top 10% I can guarantee you that virtually every Vet in the game will ONLY be playing that difficulty!

[Oxarhamar]

Background:



*Emphasis mine

I'm pulling this out of another thread about game balance as I think this is worth it's own forum post for kicking around ideas.


Let's say that the devs were granted time (wish spell) and could put some resources into this.

What would a Killer DM Mode would really look like? (Dungeon that actually randomizes? Raid area ala Thunderholme? New Quest of d00m! Perhaps a Terrasque battle?)

What kinds of rewards would they need to put into a Killer DM Mode that would make it viable for people to want to group and run it for longer than a week? (In game achievements/leader boards. Quality of life items like spell component pouches, free feat respect tokens, amazing loot that doesn't invalidate previous loot (like true seeing augments)...please oh please not more new ingredients...we have tons already)


For the sake of argument let's just make some basic assumptions:

1. This is NOT going to be fresh out of Korthos new player friendly...sorry but you'll need some oomph (something you can only really get for playing the game for longer than 2 months) to get through it. I know that's NOT fair...but this isn't about fair this is about giving some extra challenge to the game. Not all content is created equal.
2. There should be absolutely no way you can solo zerg this...meaning...it's like old Shroud where you waited 20 minutes for a healer...pre-MoTU epic style
3. You can fail this...the threat is real enough


And let's talk...

The ideas you have here are entirely new content, Killer DM mode would just be a new difficulty on existing stuff.

[Qhualor]

I'll actually post something with my 2 cents on the topic.

Loot is out. We already have issues with players complaining about drop rates, how many runs it should take to get what you want, grind and casual type players unable to get the same rewards.

Xp is out. There are far more ways to earn xp much easier and faster.

Challenge alone is out. Without reward, challenge only lasts for so long. I was at that point once before and it lasted 2-3 months.

So, how do you get players to run a killer DM difficulty that is challenging and offer no rewards besides bragging rights?

Cosmetics you can't get from the store ever or from any other place in game? Not good enough.

Pets? Maybe for some, but what keeps these players going back after they got their pet?

Higher remnant drops? If you want remnants bad enough people are figuring out the best places to farm them.

Higher drops for consumables or any other store products? Thats basically saying loot and we would have problems with players unable to complete killer DM not getting these rewards and drop rate complaints.

I'm still thinking, but the best idea I can think of is same rewards as elite. But than why run killer DM for the same rewards when path of least resistance and character progression is a huge part of the game? I don't think a killer DM difficulty will ever work.

[MadCookieQueen]

Killer DMs don't have to worry about stocking treasure.
The equipment from your dead party members is loot enough.

win! +1


guess that answers the question of "can I haz your stuff?"

[FranOhmsford]

A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.

but can you make enough quests? or do you expect people who are done with their leveling to run nothing but ToEE for 6 months?

This was the first thing I thought when I read Varg's and Sev's posts too!

ToEE alone isn't going to keep people interested for long!

An End-Game difficulty is going to need a bare minimum of 10 quests and 2 Raids to be viable!

[davmuzl]

A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.

You could even make the existing ee content more challenging by making sure that defense as well as offense can't be stacked as high. If you don't do that it will be extremly hard to balance new conent, no matter if it is a new difficulty or new quests.

[Monkey-Boy]

This was the first thing I thought when I read Varg's and Sev's posts too!

ToEE alone isn't going to keep people interested for long!

An End-Game difficulty is going to need a bare minimum of 10 quests and 2 Raids to be viable!

That sounds about right.

EE MOD right now is one of those raids. Even though a bad run now is still done in less than 20 minutes it's still intense, requires special roles, and the game play is compelling.

So one more raid and 10 quests is all we ask

[MadCookieQueen]

A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.

Any consideration for a difficulty option that only opens up when you are level 28/30? Take all the epic quests (Carnival, VoN, Cannith...etc.), you hit end game level and they now have an option for Killer DM mode.

This would keep things open for groups that are leveling and give people who fondly remember having to scream "Whirlwind!" in LoB the chance to relive the glory days.

You could keep the loot the same (shards and such) but add in other things like +5/+6 tomes, cosmetics, pets, spell compnent pouches and etc.

[hit_fido]

I'm still thinking, but the best idea I can think of is same rewards as elite.

Turbine Points seems like a reasonable candidate.

There's only two other wholly in-game ways to get them that I can think of, Monster Manual (limited), and TR Treadmill. What an end game/killer-mode quest leaderboard system could do is offset the TR Treadmill and offer TP as the other incentive (paired with bragging rights, or just personal satisfaction if that works well enough) to stay at cap and achieve great completions with other players on the highest difficulty.

Turbine points can always be used for something, even if it's just more cash shards.

[Kaytis]

To not create a power creep, the rewards should be cosmetics.

This is an exceptionally good idea.

I also think a couple extra points of favor per quest.

And, if it's your first run on a life, you get elite bravery bonus regardless of what your streak status is.

And -I would take all the champs out of all the other difficulties, make all the mobs in the new difficulty champs, and take the silly crowns off their heads.

This is the way it should have been done to begin with.

[Qhualor]

Killer DMs don't have to worry about stocking treasure.
The equipment from your dead party members is loot enough.

I've been dabbling with the idea of maybe have killer DM only follow more PnP rules and this would fall under that nicely. That would require special attention with coding rather than simply increasing Champion spawns and making mobs hit harder though.

[bbqzor]

We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.

Have you stopped to consider that this is also a terrible idea? All difficulty steps are relatively even (as much as is possible given the diverse content involved). Why then, is EE suddenly being "ramped up" in a few spots to be harder?

Do you think the "Extreme challenge" of terminal delirium was successful? Since its never in an lfm and no one ever wants to run it because its a pain, Id have to say no. Havent even seen anyone with items from it walking around, no one wants to grind in those conditions. Let alone for the poor drop rates nowadays. It can be neat once to go get through it, but no one wants to go back 100 times for items. Certainly not enough for it to be a regular part of peoples content.

If ToEE befalls the same fate, where EE becomes a non-starter over excessive punitive mechanics, I am going to be furious. And I am sure I will not be alone. The game NEEDS this to work, and work well. I dont think "harder than appropriate" EE, on top of a random dungeon, on top of random loot, is looking like a solution.

Its going to (potentially) mean spam running overly difficult content, dealing with two kinds of random, and hoping to get what you want early enough to avoid raging out over the poor drop rates. That does not sound like a successful recipe there for game health or player enjoyment. Haunted Halls was extremely successful, but Im getting worried, you guys dont seem to be learning from that success and following in kind. You seem to be going to back to reinventing the wheel for essentially no reason.

Why. Making it "extra hard" is only going to appease a tiny portion of players who seek challenge, and then only the few times they feel doing one dungeon is amusing. If theyre asking for the whole game to come up, one dungeon isnt going to sate that, its going to be a diversion before they get bored with one dungeon; theyre already bored with a much larger chunk of content one quest wont change that. Making the named/loot randomly located is going to make trying to get specific things done on specific guys much more difficult. The two together sound like its going to be problematic to have goals there at all, unless that goal is to simply take a long time doing a hard dungeon completely for fun factor a few times. That goal, valid though it may be, wont provide longevity of interest or game health.

We need another staple here. I sincerely hope the difficulty is simply what one would expect for the dungeon level and its place in progression; and not "over done" to be "challenging". And I hope the random named/item factors are still wholly compatible with players hopes to equip certain characters certain ways, without undue hoop jumping in the process. Without both these things, this quest is NOT going to deliver, and the game cannot take more months of this limping along with too-rare items or too-unbalanced quests. The minority will always be dissatisfied, making it hard on everyone to try to appease them is compromising the majority.

People need to be in the quest, and excited to be in the quest, for it to work. And that means the quest has to be fun, and also be rewarding. Excessive scaling, and randomly located rares/loot-tables, are counter to that. I know its probably too late in the process to change gears, and youll undoubtedly feel like it should go to lama before any changes. Fine. But dont ignore this MMO staple: people need to be present in the content and enjoy the content, and be able to pursue and progress towards item rewards in a concrete fashion, for content to be successful. Be sure this is not overlooked. Please. Thanks.

[burningwind]

A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.

god please, i hope you don't means there will spawn over hundred of enemy at once now.. i mean spawn 50 is already bad enough...

[axel15810]

snip

It's not a terrible idea, that's for sure. Believe me, it's not a tiny portion of the playerbase complaining that the game is too easy. It's a large portion of the playerbase. I understand that more casual players may already be challenged enough, but think of the vets/powergamers. They need a challenge as well. This game isn't only for casual players. Nobody is shutting you out of any content. And harder EE is not going to shut any casual players out of content. Temple of Elemental Evil will have Casual, Normal and Hard settings. Back in the day difficulties below elite and epic elite were actually run, it's a good thing that players will actually be running them again. Having 1 relevant difficulty is not good for the game.

I'm sure the devs will design the loot drops in a way that doesn't make any EE exclusive loot (if there is any) a must have for any build.

I'm bored to tears with the elite and EE content we have now, in your average PUG it's a complete zergstomp every time on any difficulty except for a few EE raids. More diffcult quest options that are worth running need to be introduced.

[bbqzor]

it's not a tiny portion of the playerbase complaining that the game is too easy. It's a large portion of the playerbase.

Without turbines metrics on the subject, the best any of us can do in this regard is our own perceptions of the game. And it probably varies by server.

On Sarlona, its a minority. Loading the /who tab and looking at level ranges, watching the LFM panel daily, and talking to friends and friends of friends, its a minority. All of us want to occasionally go do something to sharpen our teeth so to speak, sure. How often occasionally is varies, yes. But if there is some "large portion" thats waking up and thinking "boy I cant wait to get back into terminal delirium" they must play in a very tiny and off-hours window.

think of the vets/powergamers. They need a challenge as well. This game isn't only for casual players. Nobody is shutting you out of any content. And harder EE is not going to shut any casual players out of content.

... I am a vet, and certainly not casual. I suppose powergamer depends on who you ask or compare to, but I probably do better than most. I regularly run ee, sometimes daily depending on what Im up to at the moment. I wont get shut out either way. Its not about me, not in this regard anyhow.

But just because I can succeed either way doesnt mean its healthy for the game either way. Sure, vets need challenge. But heres the thing: Challenge isnt a progressive attribute that you accumulate towards some goal. Its not an end to itself. It will not, on its own, be the sole driving force of successful content. You dont do 100 "challenging" runs and get a title or something. It has to provide something like loot as well, to keep people coming back. Unless they somehow make it SO much fun people would run it for nothing because its THAT fun.

But I really dont think that is being realistic... so I think the typical MMO paradigm of having it provide some kind of progression for peoples characters is the safer bet. And to do that, it has to be approachable and playable so that you get a critical mass of people there to form groups regularly. Terminal Delirium has no critical mass population. That whole pack has no critical mass population. Dont want to see ToEE wind up in the same boat. Haunted Halls still has that critical mass, it was successful there. I hope that is not lost in the shuffle.

I'm sure the devs will design the loot drops in a way that doesn't make any EE exclusive loot (if there is any) a must have for any build.

Your confidence is this is greater than mine. Ill believe it when I see it.

[axel15810]

Without turbines metrics on the subject, the best any of us can do in this regard is our own perceptions of the game. And it probably varies by server.

On Sarlona, its a minority. Loading the /who tab and looking at level ranges, watching the LFM panel daily, and talking to friends and friends of friends, its a minority. All of us want to occasionally go do something to sharpen our teeth so to speak, sure. How often occasionally is varies, yes. But if there is some "large portion" thats waking up and thinking "boy I cant wait to get back into terminal delirium" they must play in a very tiny and off-hours window.


... I am a vet, and certainly not casual. I suppose powergamer depends on who you ask or compare to, but I probably do better than most. I regularly run ee, sometimes daily depending on what Im up to at the moment. I wont get shut out either way. Its not about me, not in this regard anyhow.

But just because I can succeed either way doesnt mean its healthy for the game either way. Sure, vets need challenge. But heres the thing: Challenge isnt a progressive attribute that you accumulate towards some goal. Its not an end to itself. It will not, on its own, be the sole driving force of successful content. You dont do 100 "challenging" runs and get a title or something. It has to provide something like loot as well, to keep people coming back. Unless they somehow make it SO much fun people would run it for nothing because its THAT fun.

But I really dont think that is being realistic... so I think the typical MMO paradigm of having it provide some kind of progression for peoples characters is the safer bet. And to do that, it has to be approachable and playable so that you get a critical mass of people there to form groups regularly. Terminal Delirium has no critical mass population. That whole pack has no critical mass population. Dont want to see ToEE wind up in the same boat. Haunted Halls still has that critical mass, it was successful there. I hope that is not lost in the shuffle.



Your confidence is this is greater than mine. Ill believe it when I see it.

I'm assuming the loot will be the same on all difficulties the only exception being Mythic versions which will be slightly better (but not a must have) to incentivize running EE. Also I'm assuming higher drop rates on EE on all loot as is the norm to give an incentive to run EE.

I've had the opposite experience from you. Nearly everyone I meet on PUGs in Thelanis says the game is too easy when the subject comes up. Two different sets of players I suppose. But we do know that the devs feel it is atleast a significant portion because they introduced champions, which was not only to give variety but to make the game harder in response to feedback saying the game is too easy.