Let's Talk: Killer DM Mode

[FranOhmsford]

Making new content harder going forward is fine though since players have not yet gotten used to that content. Players should be fine with new content being difficult. It's being forced to run existing content on lower difficulties that they've gotten used to stomping through on elite that upsets them. Same reasoning goes for a new killer DM difficulty. It won't upset players since they have no established difficulty expectation for that setting.

I'm not sure the above statement actually works in anything more than concept.

We've all seen the many multiple posts over the years complaining about certain quests - You know the ones...Those marked Challenging!

Players don't like seeing a Level based difficulty setting AND a C/N/H/E based difficulty setting that is also in some way tied to actual levels suddenly thrown out of the window in certain quests!

Proof is in the Poison may be a Lvl 4 base quest, 5 on Hard, 6 on Elite and people can understand that.
What they don't understand is why that quest is so much more difficult than 90% of the other Lvl 4 base quests, 5 on Hard, 6 on Elite!

A Killer DM difficulty applied to Proof would possibly count it as a Lvl 7,8 or even higher Quest for that difficulty but people would still have to run it at Lvl 6 or lower for BB.
How many complaints would there be do you think?

[Gargalarg]

You understand that we can`t ask them to redesign all the content if we want to have a chance for it to even happen,right?

Yeah tweaking the invisible crystals to spawn more mobs is possible but random traps and other similar "random" mechanics would just make it so Killer DM would be available in new quests and would lower the quest release time by a fair amount of time.

I dont think they should redesign it, I actually think it would be fairly simple to create an algorithm for all quests to just buff the monsters and traps.


perhaps enhance the hp and damage by 100%
Make evey mob a champion
Triple the trap damage
Raise trap DCs
Apply more random (and possibly deadly) effects to champions (optional though)
Maybe even apply more random stuff to traps (optional though)

[FranOhmsford]

You understand that we can`t ask them to redesign all the content if we want to have a chance for it to even happen,right?

Yeah tweaking the invisible crystals to spawn more mobs is possible but random traps and other similar "random" mechanics would just make it so Killer DM would be available in new quests and would lower the quest release time by a fair amount of time.

The Devs have tweaked quests on numerous occasions and they could add in a simple version of Killer DM difficulty then tweak a few each update just on that difficulty.

In fact - Most quests wouldn't need tweaking at all as most quests are simple Hack N' Slash.
BUT
Any quest with a Puzzle would be ripe for tweaking as Puzzle quests usually aren't any more difficult on Elite as is then they are on Casual, Normal or Hard and therefore Killer DM without tweaking them would make no difference!

[Barbarbar]

I dont think they should redesign it, I actually think it would be fairly simple to create an algorithm for all quests to just buff the monsters and traps.

I was talking about trap locations randomly appearing across the map an idea that is sweet in paper but more difficult to be applied ingame.

I see a pattern about what people ask so far,many similar ideas pop up before we finish typing.

[Wizza]

I think the main reason is because increasing the difficulty of current elite content (especially heroic elite) makes XP more difficult to obtain. And I believe the prospect of forcing players to run hard when they have gotten used to running elite upsets a lot of folks.

That's my guess as to why they've backtracked out of making difficulty changes retroactive via nerfing champions. Introducing a new killer DM mode wouldn't upset players like making elite harder in existing content would.

Making new content harder going forward is fine though since players have not yet gotten used to that content. Players should be fine with new content being difficult. It's being forced to run existing content on lower difficulties that they've gotten used to stomping through on elite that upsets them. Same reasoning goes for a new killer DM difficulty. It won't upset players since they have no established difficulty expectation for that setting.

Can't give players candy then take it away from them. However, if they never got that candy in the first place they won't get upset when it's not there.

They ruined our candy when they killed trading and tiered loot.

I have literally zero reasons to run any quest at cap on my Sorcerer other than "we have nothing else to do". And I have zero reasons to eTR since I'm eCompletionist. Adding a new mode when I haven't a reason to run the ones we have now because THEY KILLED ALL OUR REASONS is stupid.

[HAL]

Wizza put it perfectly. We have a good difficulty system in place just tweak it a little. Make favor and loot better on the hardest difficulty to give people a reason to run it EE and not ENx20.

I disagree. People already claim they have a reason to run EE - for the challenge.

[Gargalarg]

I disagree. People already claim they have a reason to run EE - for the challenge.

Except they are not challenging anymore for many, at least the majority of them :P

[Sehenry03]

I disagree. People already claim they have a reason to run EE - for the challenge.

No...a "few" people have said they only want a challenge. I see a LOT more posts from people saying they want harder difficulty AND tiered loot to match so they have incentive.

[mna]

Id like no multibox too but not sure how that would work,

It wouldn't, really. Because multiboxing can't effectively be distinguished from two (slightly distracted) real people.

Sure, you could check that there's only one instance of DDO running on a "system" ... but no workable way of finding out if "system" is a virtualized environment and what the rest of the physical hardware may have.

And that's not getting into "true" multiboxing, where you have more than one physical computer on your desk.

[Qhualor]

Correct which is why they are increasing the difficulty of hard and elite for new content. They don't have to worry about breaking old stuff which are basically just leveling quests anyhow at this point.

I am happy with the 10x mythic drop rate on EE vs. EH. Not sure why anyone would think it's quicker to run EH 10 times vs. EE once for the same chance at an item. The main reason people run EH GOP is because they don't want to get killed by EE liches or be helpless against an EE doomsphere - not because of drop rate. I got my mythic helm from GOP on EE and never saw it drop once in many more EH runs.

They aren't likely to offer anything that would compete with store items. It would be nice if these new EEs occasionally dropped super rare cool but not OP unbound items (like jibber's blade) to make the AS farmers happy. I mean SUPER rare like ioun stones used to be back in the day so they sell for alot of AS.

that's the thing. "auto win" is boring now. quests today really are just leveling quests that help you progress your character, but they lack the heart pumping/adrenaline rush/make your brow sweat/s*** your pants excitement. I want an option available to me that I can realistically fail in a full group WHILE I level my character. im not concerned with being in a rush to get anywhere in this game. DDO is supposed to be about entertainment for me and I truly miss those days that tested my skill teaching me to be a better player when normal was actually considered hard for a group, strategy was actually communicated in groups, EE today doesn't hold a candle to old epics, relying on each other for help or it could mean a sure wipe and it was a real possibility to even wipe if you made one little mistake. im not saying I want to go back to trinity days or go back to the days where you had to have a healer, tank and CC. the way EDs, enhancements and multi classing is set up, specific roles don't have to be needed.

im glad that there will probably be some actual tough content coming... at end game, but everything before that just seems pointless and a waste of time to get to that point where it finally matters? why would I spend months or years in my case doing past lives, learning to be a better player and acquiring better gear in 95% of the content in DDO just for it to be relevant in 5% of the content in DDO? that doesn't make any sense to me. I dont even really P2W besides xp pots mostly and just play the game and here I am scratching my head wondering why am I still doing all this if it doesn't matter.

[ivstuntman]

A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.

You could charge for the new difficulty or make it vip only if you want

[bbqzor]

Run it on hard. Hopefully, hard on TOEE will be like Elite today, so it will still be a challenge for most of us, and let Elite be for just the powergamers

Posting such simple and definitive responses to complex questions as if they solve everything is not helpful. If a solution was so easy, there wouldnt be need for threads such as these. It ignores a large portion of the material discussed in that post and others, most especially the potential issues with rewards and the issue of having enough players to generate critical mass regarding participation options.

If youre going to discuss something, discuss it. Having Hard be like Elite today leaves the segment of players who need today's hard out in the cold. It removes the chance for developing players to ease into champions, or trap DCs or the other myriad of scaling factors they encounter. Frankly it sounds like it would limit participation for the masses to give a minority their own difficulty. Explain why you think thats a good move, or even just an acceptable move. Otherwise it doesnt really contribute anything, other than sounding dismissive of others opinions while providing no support for your own.

[arkonas]

To be clear, my earlier post was directly in response to whether or not new difficulty should be end game only or across all existing quests. That's a topic of discussion in of itself, as there doesn't appear to be a player consensus (even just in this thread).

There seemed to be some responses that seem to think I was saying greater difficultly shouldn't be available across all existing quests, or that it should be across all existing quests. Rather, it would be nice to see discussion on the merits of each approach (and to a lesser extent novel ideas on how to implement either one) than just shut down discussion on one or the other.


Welcome to this discussion. Clearly there's a variety of opinions.



Yes, I understood, that's why I responded. Different players are talking about different ideas, both of which are valid. Not everyone believes C/N/H/E are fine, as is apparent from discussion here.

So vargouille what about this part. have it be epics only 20-30. or whatever cap it maybe in the future. then you wouldn't touch heroics. the only people that want this challenge is the people looking for difficulty. you know you wont please everyone and even if you introduced it you know that only the strong would survive. isn't that what the point of it would be? as long as you dont give it favor. if you do just make it like epic elite. everyone can run whatever difficulty their happy with. then you end up making a base happy.

[arkonas]

Run it on hard. Hopefully, hard on TOEE will be like Elite today, so it will still be a challenge for most of us, and let Elite be for just the powergamers...

that is a horrible idea. for those people who can't handle elite they run enormal or hard. now you would be taking away hard and now these people would lose streak. no thanks. they would be forced to run normal. that would **** off a lot of people im sure. i would rather have a new diff for the powergamers.

[Severlin]

It's an interesting discussion, and I just wanted to insert some random thoughts:

~ I don't think it is possible for a team of any size to create hand made content in any video game faster than the most dedicated players can consume it. We understand that we are in a perpetual content race with the players; we know that we will always lose that battle. The plan is that Temple of Elemental Evil will be big and fun and have good itemization. It will not keep the most engaged players entirely busy for the 3.5 months it will take for the Shavarath update to be finished. It just won't. We know this. You know this. We will try our best to make the content as re-playable as possible.

~ It is a rare and precious thing - maybe even close to impossible - for content to be challenging to a player that has run it many many times and memorized the ins and outs of that content. We can change bits of it to hit harder, throw more creatures at players, and have more evil tricks but once the players learn the ins and outs of those new changes the content will once again be easy. Unless it can randomly just kill off people, and we don't think that's really a "challenge."

~ When we talk about a Killer DM mode we are talking about a new difficulty level for existing content with system changes to make it more challenging. It would not involve any additional customization of old content like randomized traps, additional difficulty on puzzles and the like.

~ The problem with making Epic Elite have more relative difficulty, even for new content, is the gaps between difficulties become larger and more players can fall into a situation where the previous difficulty is too easy but the next one up is too hard. On the other hand new levels of difficulty can cause the potential players grouping to fracture even more. We understand this. These conundrums are what keep us awake at night when we should be sleeping.

~ I think the challenges in Terminal Delerium were in some ways the wrong kind of extra challenge.

~ The subject of a Killer DM mode is really a mad notion that is good for discussing the problems surrounding difficulty in an ongoing game. While it is theoretically possible to implement it, I think even the short discussion here shows the potential problems in design the idea presents. I am hoping that by bringing up these discussions I am not creating situations where the players are getting upset at these theoreticals.

Sev~

[UurlockYgmeov]

It's an interesting discussion, and I just wanted to insert some random thoughts:

~ I don't think it is possible for a team of any size to create hand made content in any video game faster than the most dedicated players can consume it. We understand that we are in a perpetual content race with the players; we know that we will always lose that battle. The plan is that Temple of Elemental Evil will be big and fun and have good itemization. It will not keep the most engaged players entirely busy for the 3.5 months it will take for the Shavarath update to be finished. It just won't. We know this. You know this. We will try our best to make the content as re-playable as possible.

~ It is a rare and precious thing - maybe even close to impossible - for content to be challenging to a player that has run it many many times and memorized the ins and outs of that content. We can change bits of it to hit harder, throw more creatures at players, and have more evil tricks but once the players learn the ins and outs of those new changes the content will once again be easy. Unless it can randomly just kill off people, and we don't think that's really a "challenge."

~ When we talk about a Killer DM mode we are talking about a new difficulty level for existing content with system changes to make it more challenging. It would not involve any additional customization of old content like randomized traps, additional difficulty on puzzles and the like.

~ The problem with making Epic Elite have more relative difficulty, even for new content, is the gaps between difficulties become larger and more players can fall into a situation where the previous difficulty is too easy but the next one up is too hard. On the other hand new levels of difficulty can cause the potential players grouping to fracture even more. We understand this. These conundrums are what keep us awake at night when we should be sleeping.

~ I think the challenges in Terminal Delerium were in some ways the wrong kind of extra challenge.

~ The subject of a Killer DM mode is really a mad notion that is good for discussing the problems surrounding difficulty in an ongoing game. While it is theoretically possible to implement it, I think even the short discussion here shows the potential problems in design the idea presents. I am hoping that by bringing up these discussions I am not creating situations where the players are getting upset at these theoreticals.

Sev~

good Kobold! Here's some fresh rat! ;p

[Wizza]

~ I think the challenges in Terminal Delerium were in some ways the wrong kind of extra challenge.
Sev~

Terminal Delirium is the worst kind of challenge you guys can come up with.

You take extra damage.

WOW. So exciting, so challenging getting one shotted, even if you go in and out for every spell out of the mirror room. One gargoyle hit and you die.

How about fixing it now? Because it's broken, it's not challenging nor fun.

[Seikojin]

Permadeath can offer you a killer dm feel.

If they were to add another difficulty, I definitely would think it would have to offer increased rewards. Players can make rules to make things harder in the game, so there is no reason to force the development of something to add difficulty without some reward outside of meta status.

[Kaytis]

I think the main reason is because increasing the difficulty of current elite content (especially heroic elite) makes XP more difficult to obtain. And I believe the prospect of forcing players to run hard when they have gotten used to running elite upsets a lot of folks.

That's my guess as to why they've backtracked out of making difficulty changes retroactive via nerfing champions. Introducing a new killer DM mode wouldn't upset players like making elite harder in existing content would.

Making new content harder going forward is fine though since players have not yet gotten used to that content. Players should be fine with new content being difficult. It's being forced to run existing content on lower difficulties that they've gotten used to stomping through on elite that upsets them. Same reasoning goes for a new killer DM difficulty. It won't upset players since they have no established difficulty expectation for that setting.

Can't give players candy then take it away from them. However, if they never got that candy in the first place they won't get upset when it's not there.

Nailed it. This is exactly the problem. It is an expectations issue. This is why Champions as implemented was never going to make anyone happy. Too easy, too hard -it is a literal impossibility to balance.

The old Epics is a textbook case of how to do this right. It genuinely was brutal. You took any toon in there solo and you could expect to get crushed in any head to head confrontation. No one expected any different, and anyone who complained was rightly told to group up or forget about it. You genuinely had to think about it even in groups. And the rewards, although slow coming, were quite nice for the era.

I could go on in detail about XP, but suffice it to say I have lost interest in Heroic TR due to champions. I am still ER'ing, but I am 24 lives in and don't know what I will do when I get the last 12.

[slarden]

that's the thing. "auto win" is boring now. quests today really are just leveling quests that help you progress your character, but they lack the heart pumping/adrenaline rush/make your brow sweat/s*** your pants excitement. I want an option available to me that I can realistically fail in a full group WHILE I level my character. im not concerned with being in a rush to get anywhere in this game. DDO is supposed to be about entertainment for me and I truly miss those days that tested my skill teaching me to be a better player when normal was actually considered hard for a group, strategy was actually communicated in groups, EE today doesn't hold a candle to old epics, relying on each other for help or it could mean a sure wipe and it was a real possibility to even wipe if you made one little mistake. im not saying I want to go back to trinity days or go back to the days where you had to have a healer, tank and CC. the way EDs, enhancements and multi classing is set up, specific roles don't have to be needed.

im glad that there will probably be some actual tough content coming... at end game, but everything before that just seems pointless and a waste of time to get to that point where it finally matters? why would I spend months or years in my case doing past lives, learning to be a better player and acquiring better gear in 95% of the content in DDO just for it to be relevant in 5% of the content in DDO? that doesn't make any sense to me. I dont even really P2W besides xp pots mostly and just play the game and here I am scratching my head wondering why am I still doing all this if it doesn't matter.

I just don't see much benefit in them amping up the difficulty of Thrill of the Hunt or Partycrashers. I've run that content so much I would rather be challenged by new content. I guess what I am saying is I would rather have them spend time developing new content rather than tinkering with quests I've run over 100 each which is every quest in the game except a small handful I usually skip.

Everyone has a different opinion. It also makes older easier content a stepping stone for newer players and players making the transition to more difficult content.

I think the difficulty level of old epic is really overstated. I can't remember ever failing in old epics except sometimes in eVon 6 PUGs because a few people didn't get it or eChrono PUGs because the party lacked dps. eVon I didn't care because I could re-run soon enough. in eChrono I didn't mind when the party failed because I always had lots of shards and was missing seals and scrolls. The drop rate assumed a higher failure rate in the end part.

For the most part old epics was about cc-tank-healer-trapper-dps. I don't want to go back there because despite people longing for those days the participation rate was kind of low compared to now. I do think those roles should still exist in raids, but to a lesser extent in quests. Those roles shouldn't be required for every single quest in the game.

I am still challenged by ee GOP except on my occult slayer barbarian, ee MOD, ee Deathwyrm, ee Fire on Thunderpeak. ee CITW I am not sure about. I stopped running it after twice in a row someone used an exploit to finish the quest quick but nobody could loot the chests. I see lots of deaths in ee Inferno, but it's very completable.