You know the game is not balanced properly when...

[brzytki]

The players crying foul are wrong Thief Acrobat has been buffed to the same levels as Barbarian in terms of raw DPS, they have a few issues that Barbarians don't, they need to not have argo so they can get there SA, and don't have the regen to make them godly solo, but in a group they will be beasts, but these things just make for a different play experience (they need to manage there agro).

You are talking about 13/x or 5/x splashes, right? Because you couldn't possibly have said that about pure or 18/x acrobats.

[Severlin]

This is a very small change.

That's all that's needed, as you will argue eloquently later in this post when you point out how nice the Swashbuckler/Fighter/Rogue combo is with Evasion.

Waiting a bit more in lama would have let you know. The same mistake was made in pulverizer vs headman's chop.

Waiting more in Lama translates to pushing back a whole release, and in the greater scheme of things if I held up an entire release of content because Holy Sword might be a bit too strong the franchise would suffer.

Well, once you start buffing like you did with paladins and bards, everyone wants their cake. If paladins deal impressive DPS and have amazing self heals, why shouldn't barbarians have them? The same can be said about every class that's why you are getting so much flag in the TA thread.

Bards are fine. The only reason Paladins are over-performing is Holy Sword for reasons I mentioned above.

Suppose you get balance right in the temple of elemental evil. What about the rest of the game?

Melee can finally have the fun that casters and ranged Evasion builds have enjoyed for years?

Swash + fighter + rogue is an amazingly strong build. It packs heals, evasion, self healing, good PRR and MRR, CC, insta kills, excellent boss DPS, excellent dodge, self casted displacement, utility (traps, DDoor). Are all classes going to get the equivalent in terms of power and utility?

Anyone can get Heals, Evasion, self cast Displacement, Dimension Door and traps with a little planning and two levels of Rogue. And there are many builds as strong as that combo right now.

Fighter is NOT in a good place, completely outclassed by paladin in every possible sense. Vanguard is good, but it is much better as paladin than as fighter. It is not in the same planet.

Fighter is fine, though I agree it is behind Paladin. Their greatest weakness is actually saving throws.

I think you need to understand that from the player base perspective, these upgrades are like shiradi spams. Sometimes its just weak sauce, sometimes you give amazing power. It also comes at a class per update, which means that the full class revamp will take years. It is incredibly hard to comment on your upgrades without having a full picture of where you are heading.

The criticism on Rogue changes is the exact same stuff we heard about Paladin and Barbarians. Is your main balance concern that you suspect the rogue changes won't make them as good as Paladin? I think we want to see how they perform on Lamannia with the proposed changes.

Is content going to be amazing hard in a future end game so that we no longer talk about rolf stomping it? Will it encourage cooperation because otherwise single toons are highly likely to be pawned in high difficulties? Will there be end game at all?

When will it be, in 1 year, 2 year, 2 months? Will this end game be raid based? Do you plan to upgrade previous legendary gear that is now trash? Do you realize that current end game (eTRing) is incredibly frustrating because it incentivizes running time and again the same quests in off destinies and not using your best gear? Will there be server mergers?

At this point I honestly don't care very much if one class or another gets a tree, I am more concerned with the overall direction of the game.

Believe me, I have tried to go over all of this in the Producer's letter and answered as many questions as I could and still have reasonable ability to make changes to the schedule based on player feedback and the team's needs. I am not sure how much more I can share with you about what we are working on.

Sev~

[etotheipi]

(We are fairly happy with the performance of casters.) Sev~

Right. First, casters dealt with the Drow hit. MoTU brought high SR Drow. Next, casters were tossed Undead content. And to top it off, now casters have been tossed Champions (with neat, special, practically undetectable anti-caster buffs). If by "happy with casters" you mean something like "happy with bad casters buying endless SP pots", I can sort of see why you might be "happy with casters". That'd be the monetary motivation. If by "happy with casters" you mean something like "happy that casters suck now", I can see that too. Lots of melee types have had a long term, special hatred for casters, and want to see them suck. If by "happy with casters" you mean "happy that casters have to have to build for melee to not completely suck", well, that would also make sense. It's a melee's game now, Severlin.

Try playing a caster, Severlin. For kicks and giggles, try soloing EE with one (without using XP Elixirs). Your uber-melees are laughing at this content now. Your casters are not. Pretty much any caster that is soloing EE will be in Shiradi and dealing weaksauce DPS. If you're happy with the performance of casters, why don't you nerf down the BRDs, PALs and BRBs so they play more like casters? In the game you've built, a caster is a waste of a party slot.

[Andoris]

You know, I am going to agree with you here. They are well balanced, I think, vs content. But...

...do you think your wizard archetype (which is a DC caster) is well balanced against say paladins or barbarians, everything considered?

By everything considered I mean taking into account trash killing and boss killing. And by wizard archetype I mean a pure wizard damaging with spells. If you found it necessary to move towards melee DPS against red named mobs while giving up some DCs, how on earth are people already struggling with the DCs going to manage playing a DC caster wizard and kill the huge HP bags?

Each excels in its own way. I will agree that my Pally or a Barb takes less effort to build and play, however; I am fine with that. None of my builds are "max everything and exploit every game mechanic I can" builds (although I can easily build that if I choose); but all of my toons are strong enough to handle any content in the game on any difficulty. Granted, some are better at it than others, but all of them (and I have a odd monk/FvS nuking/melee build) can handle all the game can throw at them and more.

As for how people that are "struggling with DCs" are going to manage.. I have the same answer that I have given for the past few years --- Bring 5 minions.. you let them kill the red names.. you kill everything else. Your a wizard for crying out loud.. what good is a wizard without a cool hat and a bunch of minions

DDO will never be balanced as D&D is not balanced. I agree with you that the recent changes to Heavy Armor, Pallys, and Barbs (to a lesser extent Bards) is over the top. balance is not what we should be shooting for. What we should be shooting for is that all classes have a niche where they are "best in class" with maybe one or two (thinking of Bards here) is "okay at everything"

My decision to go melee with my DC caster is partly based on wanting to do a flavor build, partly based on wanting to be more effective soloing/duoing when I want (achievements mostly) and lastly an option that presented itself due to my build having literally EVERYTHING.

I said it before, I understand that PMs cannot be gods that insta kill and nuke bosses with ease. The fact that they are struggling at something that other classes aren't (the overlord classes) is telling you that there is a lack of balance. That's my point.

We might be struggling on red/purple named dps.. but that makes up for the fact that I can out kill trash versus any build out there. To be honest, adding melee and shadowdancer to my build made it even stronger at killing trash as now I have more options for undead and constructs (consume + melee dps).

How to address this blatant issue of balance, for my taste, is bringing everyone to the situation of the PM. Struggles with some stuff, excels at other. For me this would make a better game than just bringing everyone to the power curve set by paladin, bard and barbarian.

While I agree with the goal, it is never going to be fully achievable ... I would rather start with every class is viable and fun to play (arty at cap comes to mind) and the balance is close enough to where the "power" classes and the "weak" classes are within 30-40% of each other (which they are not now)

I do have a thread about h armor and I'd rather keep it out of here.

Point taken and respected with regards to heavy armor

[Andoris]

The point that pure DC PM struggle with the Red Named yet can instakill, hold & burst etc... Trash faster than these "overlord classes" which cannot one shot every trash mob or CC every trash mob but, have high enough DPS to beat them down and the Red Names is balance.

Agreed

[Severlin]

If be curious also but, I rarely see mortal fear making a difference in trash as their 10k hp is not enough to matter if it doesn't go off early.

I think being mostly helpful on the 100-250k mini bosses that are not immune is ok.

Mortal Fear is definitely too powerful. Any effect that reduces a percentage of total hit points will probably scale too well. It isn't on our radar for changes because a.) that would be a huge player pain point and b.) what Oxarhamar said above.

Our biggest concern about Mortal Fear is we could have weapons that are statistically superior in future content and players would still complain that their Mortal Fear weapons are better.

Sev~

[Andoris]

Your logical flaw is thinking every one is amazing at everything there not most people are "amazing" at DPS but only good-passable at defense and healing.

Grail, what do you say to my Pally that is "Amazing" at Defense and 90% of "Amazing" at DPS?

[Qhualor]

No, I am saying the complete opposite of what you just said.

We are planning on having Hard mode for ToEE be hard, and Elite to be really hard. A much larger ramp up than the content you are used to. Our plan for end game folk who want hard content that promotes teamwork is giving that to them for the new content we are introducing.

Sev~

ok that's great for end game content, but I would love to see the same thing with elite across ALL content. I understand this would mean slowing down players as they progress and that would lead to a lot of ranting like is clearly shown in the Champion threads, but im tired of the "auto win" while I progress towards my end game goals. it would require some changes to things like BB and matching ever increasing character power to the difficulties, but entertainment is one of the bigger reasons why I play DDO. "auto win" doesn't entertain me. if I wanted that I know I coul drop to a lower difficulty. if I want some hard fun and test my skills, I would choose elite. this is why focusing on reincarnation and increasing the level cap before making an actual end game and not keeping the highest difficulty challenging has made it difficult to actually inject challenge into the game. Champions is a great example of this.

[Andoris]

I understand why Andoris has respecced his Pale Master to give it melee ability. Casters have been proxy-nerfed into the ground (by making BRDs, PALs, and BRBs way, way too powerful), and actually nerfed into the ground (through the Champion system). MAX DC casters can't kill trash noticeably faster than MAX DPS melees now, and they are stymied by Champions (best to just skip them when possible, of course). There's a fair bit of Undead in the game too, and DC casters don't really have good methods of dealing with those either.

Overall, your PALs, BRDs, and BRBs are just better against trash, and, of course, infinitely better against everything else. In addition, they have thousands of HP and damage mitigation through the roof. The mere runspeed that BRBs and BRDs get makes them faster trash killers than a MAX DC instakiller... And their DPS isn't limited by anything (you know, like SP). Casters have been HOSED. And they aren't even desirable as Hold Bots. The melees will have cleared the trash before the Mass Hold spell goes off or the caster catches up.

Now let's think about the investment involved in getting a MAX DC caster. It's huge. And yet, a first life BRB, PAL or BRD utterly dominates it. The melees finally whined enough to get their complete easy button, I guess. It wasn't good enough to be needed for non-trash. Now they just ROFLSTOMP everything. And ROGs want in on this too. We might as well just give everyone the old Everything is Nothing and make it work on any mob in a dungeon, since that's what this playerbase is begging for and the DEVs are feeding them. Skill, strategy, teamwork, tactics, planning... None of it is part of this game anymore. Just roll up one of the new easy-button classes, head off solo or in a group (doesn't matter), swing mindlessly, and watch the quest auto-complete. Yay, I guess?

While I agree that a fully decked out wizard takes a lot more work than a Barb or Pally that melts through content -- I disagree that a Barb or Pally is better at Trash than a maxed out Wizard.

I'll take anyone into EE WGU (still some of the highest saves in the game) and out kill a Barb or Pally (sprint boost gives Barbs a chance as they will get there quicker.. but I still am confident I can take them )

Barbs and Pallys are easier to play and easier to build.. but so what.

Those that want to use a little skill and actually have a reason for all those PLs and Gear we acquired will play other builds. As long as those other builds have a chance (looking at Artys again).

[Andoris]

you mean the barbarians that use Consecrated Ground and don't stop to heal?

Barbarians don't need Consecrated Ground. To be honest if you think you need CG.. your doing it wrong.

Then again those Barbs don't use Cure Moderate pots to heal either

[Severlin]

ok that's great for end game content, but I would love to see the same thing with elite across ALL content. I understand this would mean slowing down players as they progress and that would lead to a lot of ranting like is clearly shown in the Champion threads, but im tired of the "auto win" while I progress towards my end game goals. it would require some changes to things like BB and matching ever increasing character power to the difficulties, but entertainment is one of the bigger reasons why I play DDO. "auto win" doesn't entertain me. if I wanted that I know I coul drop to a lower difficulty. if I want some hard fun and test my skills, I would choose elite. this is why focusing on reincarnation and increasing the level cap before making an actual end game and not keeping the highest difficulty challenging has made it difficult to actually inject challenge into the game. Champions is a great example of this.

I know there is a sub-section of players that want even *more* difficulty in existing content. We have to make decisions about where to spend our time, and we think our time would be better spent making new challenging content with new Mythic treasures to reward those challenges than trying to back track and introduce difficulty where a lot of players don't want it.

We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

Sev~

[brzytki]

~ The base values for armor are a little too high. When we changed the formula to 100/(100 + Rating) we changed most of the sources, but didn't change the base armor values from 45/30/15. This will be rectified in the next update when they are changed to 30/20/10.

That 15 PRR less is not going to hurt high PRR harmor users much because they have also high HP. The loss of 5 PRR will hurt low PRR characters more because they have limited options to get more PRR and coincidentally they have fewer HP, which compounds the issue.

We understand that Coup de Grace has a high DC. Using Perform as a DC has been a bard thing for a while and even though it makes the DC very high it seems fine since it is single target, has a 15 second cooldown, and requires the enemy to be helpless. Yes, we know its easy to compare to Assassinate, but we want Rogues to have their own advantages and not just copy the Bard enhancements. We are watching Coup de Grace for potential issues, of course, but we think it will be fine.

That's funny. Because it's single target, it's ok for it to have 90+ DC. Well, then let's give such a boost to Stunning Blow for example. It's single tagert as well. Oh and look, it's not even an insta-kill. So yeah, you should. /facepalm And no, it doesn't require the enemy to be helpless, or rather it affects not only helpless targets (Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned) and i browse bard's spells and their enhancements and i see a multitude ways for them to make a mob susceptible to that insta-kill, some of which are AoE spells, and of course we have fascinate with its also extremely high DC. And then add other party members, who can also prepare mobs for the bard's insta-kill.

[Qhualor]

Barbarians don't need Consecrated Ground. To be honest if you think you need CG.. your doing it wrong.

Then again those Barbs don't use Cure Moderate pots to heal either

I actually said that in a thread not long ago. barbarians are actually losing dps if they use Consecrated Ground as a twist slot or using that destiny.

it wasn't CMW pots, it was CSW pots. every barb past life ive done on my characters have been using SF pots mostly in higher level EE on the Live server. my barbs blue bar will never get higher than 25 sp and in heroics im pretty happy to see -5 while wearing this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fleshshaper%27s_Brigandine

[Vint]

Anyone can get Heals, Evasion, self cast Displacement, Dimension Door and traps with a little planning and two levels of Rogue. And there are many builds as strong as that combo right now.

Sev~

Thanks, Sev.


Many players here (who actually know how to play) can list dozens of builds that are powerful in the right hands. Please ignore the people that have no clue on how to play the game.

[Qhualor]

I know there is a sub-section of players that want even *more* difficulty in existing content. We have to make decisions about where to spend our time, and we think our time would be better spent making new challenging content with new Mythic treasures to reward those challenges than trying to back track and introduce difficulty where a lot of players don't want it.

We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

Sev~

I don't agree with adding another difficulty, but if you are seriously entertaining the idea of a "Mythic" difficulty than ill try to think of things that would encourage enough players who would want an actual challenge and play with a full group knowing that there is a real chance of failure.

[Andoris]

We had the exact same feedback about Paladin and Barbarian before they hit Lamannia. We *still* have players mad that Barbarians didn't get enough of a boost even though there are Barbarian builds that are performing as well as Paladins in every test we've tried with them.

The game is in a much better place. Previously the end game was limited to pretty much casters and ranged Evasion builds. That was all that was really considered for top end builds. Everything else was considered a niche build. Melee wasn't really viable, nor was armor. Now Bard, Paladins, and Barbarians are doing well. People have a reason to actually wear heavy armor. Melee is an actual playstyle, and characters built for it can actually melee against foes without immediately dying.

If we want to talk about imbalance I think they can be listed with several issues. (Note that most of these are my fault.)

Sev, thanks for chiming in. Also, you can't take all the blame I and a few others pushed Pallys up more than we should have (especially vanguard) and I know enough of the math to have known better.. I just missed it.

I agree, the class re-vamps have made DDO a better place, and it is good that we now have reason to wear heavy armor and not all builds are splashing 2,6, or 12 monk. However; I think we went too far. Now, splashing monk (outside of 14 pally / 6 monk archer ) or some thrower builds is just gimping your toon (which is cool if it is for flavor.. but not good for "game balance", whatever that is ) which tells me we went too far.

~ The base values for armor are a little too high. When we changed the formula to 100/(100 + Rating) we changed most of the sources, but didn't change the base armor values from 45/30/15. This will be rectified in the next update when they are changed to 30/20/10.

~ Holy Sword is over-performing. This is also my fault. My math did not take into account that Improved Critical is not working like the pen and paper version and is instead doubling the entire critical range. Varg (and some of the more math oriented players) discussed this, but by the time I could get hard numbers on the issue and figure out why my math was wrong it was really late in the update's cycle. Unfortunately critical threat range and multipliers really can't be dialed back without removing them entirely, and at the time there was a lot of forum concern that the Paladin changes still wouldn't be enough. So rather than pulling it at the last minute I let the changes go through. This is MY fault.

Overall the base armor changes will have little effect, but it is a step in the right direction. Much of the problem rests with the "all or nothing" mitigation of displacement and to a lesser extent dodge. I don't have a good solution for it (but I think I am re-thinking my comments on your solution from last year) .. but I understand how it is causing issues from a design standpoint where PRR has become the "king of defense".

Also, just my opinion again, but Heavy armor can use a nerf.. but I would leave medium and light armor as is.. 30/30 (or 25) /15 might be better (heavy still gets more of a boost from BAB). Wearing medium and light armor is where we need to apply some incentives.

(The light damage is probably a bit too high for Knight of the Chalice but it doesn't scale in the same fashion.)

~ For Barbarians the Ravager heal is probably too strong and the overall extra damage is probably too good for TWF barbarians. We are seeing some impressive numbers from builds using TWF to take advantage of all the barbarian damage bonuses. This is my fault as well because, to be honest, I let myself be talked by the community into some over-buffing.

Agreed on Barbs.. disagree on KotC. Holy Sword and Zeal are issues more than the light damage. That and the neg level immunity.. but that is more a case of current content than a long term issue.

Note that even though we talk about some abilities over performing we have not planned any nerfs to Paladin or Barbarian other than the armor changes. We probably want to see how these builds perform in the harder Temple of Elemental Evil hard and elite modes before we talk about further balancing. One of the reasons we avoid frank discussions about power balancing is we don't want players to get stressed about potential nerfs when we aren't planning them.

Fair point.. but this is a good use for the PC. I am hoping your using the 2015 group to its fullest. There are a few math junkies in the current crop. Assuming they can get past their pet projects you should be in good shape.

~ Swashbuckler does not seem to be overperforming in our tests. The DPS is strong, but it is mostly single target and it is in a good place for us. We understand that Coup de Grace has a high DC. Using Perform as a DC has been a bard thing for a while and even though it makes the DC very high it seems fine since it is single target, has a 15 second cooldown, and requires the enemy to be helpless. Yes, we know its easy to compare to Assassinate, but we want Rogues to have their own advantages and not just copy the Bard enhancements. We are watching Coup de Grace for potential issues, of course, but we think it will be fine.

CdG is too good, and Assassins need a lot of love (from the current proposal I saw). As for DPS, I am actually running through a swash builds at present (running EEs below level) and I will say that it is stronger than most other builds.. but weaker than Pally/Barb in overall play (I know Bard DPS is above Pally.. but Pally has better defensive options). If you are looking to overall buff all the builds.. Bard with a change to CdG might be a good target (still to powerful imo.. but reasonable at least).

As for future plans, we have gone over our plans several times. We are working on a Rogue pass, we have Ranged Power coming, and we have a Ranger pass coming at some point. We are looking at Warlock of course, and we want to get the third trees for Favored Soul and Druid in this year. When we do the Druid tree we will also fix up forms so they can get good DPS without exploiting other systems. Fighter is in good shape as it just got Vanguard and an update to Stalwart Defender, but at some point we want to touch up Kensai.

You have covered near-term plans.. but not the "Vision". In your minds... what is "balanced"? What is your Vision for "end game"? Do you have any thoughts for CR inflation and what it does to niche builds like "Turn undead" clerics and Spell Resistance? What classes do you think need help (hint: Arty at end game ... and no I don't have a Arty toon) and which don't (Barbs, Bards, and Pally's)?

That is what I am talking about when I speak of understanding the "Vision"

As for Fighters, I respectfully disagree... they are nothing more than a "splash" class now

(We are fairly happy with the performance of casters.)

Sev~

As a self-declared "expert" in the matter.. I agree. Just be careful with the DC's needed with ToEE... players should not need a build like mine to feel like they are useful.

Thank you again for all the interaction over the past year... it has given me renewed faith in DDO's future

[davmuzl]

While I have played many holy trinity games (tank/healer/DPS) and while many are fun, we don't want to move this game in that direction. Although they can promote teamwork, we feel that the price of waiting as a DPS for an hour to find a healer or a tank is far more of a detriment to this game than the benefits of requiring those roles in normal content.

Our plan to encourage teamwork is to make the XP rewards encourage teamwork, make the death penalty character specific, and make new content hard enough on hard and elite that friends are welcome.

Sev~

One thing that I really enjoyed in the time just before motu was the ability to join a quest/raid on my healer and get gear for my othr characters that way. At that point everybody has the choice to be selfish and wait or grab the healer and help the group.
This game also used to have CC in addition to the other 3 and while tanking and CC are more gear dependent than the rest that's even more options to go for if playing a healer isn't fun enough.
I also don't think it is a good idea to balance everything around new content- there is too much fun in the game already to waste it just becaue people don't like when their classes are being nerfed.

edit: If you don't want to force grouping by spliting roles give every class good abilities that only work with others or better with others. I know that this is being done in the assassin changes but would be better if even more was in the game.

[Grailhawk]

Grail, what do you say to my Pally that is "Amazing" at Defense and 90% of "Amazing" at DPS?

You really think it's with in 10? of a DPS paladin?

[Sehenry03]

We had the exact same feedback about Paladin and Barbarian before they hit Lamannia. We *still* have players mad that Barbarians didn't get enough of a boost even though there are Barbarian builds that are performing as well as Paladins in every test we've tried with them.

The game is in a much better place. Previously the end game was limited to pretty much casters and ranged Evasion builds. That was all that was really considered for top end builds. Everything else was considered a niche build. Melee wasn't really viable, nor was armor. Now Bard, Paladins, and Barbarians are doing well. People have a reason to actually wear heavy armor. Melee is an actual playstyle, and characters built for it can actually melee against foes without immediately dying.

If we want to talk about imbalance I think they can be listed with several issues. (Note that most of these are my fault.)

~ The base values for armor are a little too high. When we changed the formula to 100/(100 + Rating) we changed most of the sources, but didn't change the base armor values from 45/30/15. This will be rectified in the next update when they are changed to 30/20/10.

~ Holy Sword is over-performing. This is also my fault. My math did not take into account that Improved Critical is not working like the pen and paper version and is instead doubling the entire critical range. Varg (and some of the more math oriented players) discussed this, but by the time I could get hard numbers on the issue and figure out why my math was wrong it was really late in the update's cycle. Unfortunately critical threat range and multipliers really can't be dialed back without removing them entirely, and at the time there was a lot of forum concern that the Paladin changes still wouldn't be enough. So rather than pulling it at the last minute I let the changes go through. This is MY fault.

(The light damage is probably a bit too high for Knight of the Chalice but it doesn't scale in the same fashion.)

~ For Barbarians the Ravager heal is probably too strong and the overall extra damage is probably too good for TWF barbarians. We are seeing some impressive numbers from builds using TWF to take advantage of all the barbarian damage bonuses. This is my fault as well because, to be honest, I let myself be talked by the community into some over-buffing.


Note that even though we talk about some abilities over performing we have not planned any nerfs to Paladin or Barbarian other than the armor changes. We probably want to see how these builds perform in the harder Temple of Elemental Evil hard and elite modes before we talk about further balancing. One of the reasons we avoid frank discussions about power balancing is we don't want players to get stressed about potential nerfs when we aren't planning them.

~ Swashbuckler does not seem to be overperforming in our tests. The DPS is strong, but it is mostly single target and it is in a good place for us. We understand that Coup de Grace has a high DC. Using Perform as a DC has been a bard thing for a while and even though it makes the DC very high it seems fine since it is single target, has a 15 second cooldown, and requires the enemy to be helpless. Yes, we know its easy to compare to Assassinate, but we want Rogues to have their own advantages and not just copy the Bard enhancements. We are watching Coup de Grace for potential issues, of course, but we think it will be fine.

As for future plans, we have gone over our plans several times. We are working on a Rogue pass, we have Ranged Power coming, and we have a Ranger pass coming at some point. We are looking at Warlock of course, and we want to get the third trees for Favored Soul and Druid in this year. When we do the Druid tree we will also fix up forms so they can get good DPS without exploiting other systems. Fighter is in good shape as it just got Vanguard and an update to Stalwart Defender, but at some point we want to touch up Kensai.

(We are fairly happy with the performance of casters.)

Sev~

Sev thanks SO much for a nice detailed post. What scares me though and is slowly pushing me away from DDO again is the lack of concern for Arty's. I see nothing in here mentioning Arty's except "ranged pass" which is gonna be helpful...still does not help with a lot of other Arty issues.

Since you are in an answering mood...could you give us ANY idea on Arty plans? I know you are doing rogue stuff but what confuses me and I mentioned this in another thread is that LOTS of people play rogues right now which tells me they are not that bad off. In epic content you see VERY few Arty's. I see fewer Arty's then any other class because they are not good at scaling into Epic content. Rune Arm DC's need serious help. Pet is useless. Damage is mediocre at best. Only 1 tree is used to any extent then Harper becomes the second tree of choice for Arty's.

Can you give us ANY plans or ETA of any kind about Arty's? I saw Rangers and Druids listed in the upcoming passes and again you see 10 times the druids/rangers being played then Arty's in Epic content. =(

[redoubt]

Anyone can get Heals, Evasion, self cast Displacement, Dimension Door and traps with a little planning and two levels of Rogue. And there are many builds as strong as that combo right now.
Sev~

1. When you say heals, do you mean Destiny stuff or heal scrolls? I'll agree heal scrolls work okay in heroic content, but in epic they create significant down time.

2. Evasion is easy... as you say it ONLY costs you two levels (Monk or Rogue.)

3. Self cast displacement = Green Steel clickies. Okay.

4. Dimension door. Where do you see people getting this one? Scrolls are not for sale any more. I see that leaving dragon marks or the Shadow Dancer destiny.

5. Getting traps can be done with as little as one level of rogue, but not all classes really work equally well for it. Even a max INT wizard/rogue is stretched for skill points. Figure you want: search, spot, disable (dump open lock). These are 2x during wiz levels. Then you also want UMD, spellcraft and heal (which you can't max) I just did an ER on my character with 18 wizard / 2 rogue sun elf 20 Starting INT and a +6 tome. I was able to max: search, spot, disable, UMD and spellcraft. Heal to 11.

Clarification on 1 & 4 would be appreciated. Thanks!