You know the game is not balanced properly when...

[Thrudh]

Because they would play differently. And because you should try to understand what I said: "overall similar difficulty".

Rogues play differently from barbarians NOW... But you want rogues to have more damage mitigation and more self-healing and more DPS, so they are "balanced" with barbs....

At that point, they will all play the same...

Look, I think I agree with some of your posts... You seem to be asking for classes to have weaknesses, so that they can't do it all.. I'm all for that... I've always fought the devs adding more and more self-healing into the game... I've always thought barbs should do the most DPS, but have the worst defense and worst self-healing...

I think some of the recent buffs have been too much as well. I'd be okay with nerfs (although it may be too late).

But your OP says almost the exact opposite... You are upset that PM wizards can't take out red-names easily with their spells... Even though they are kings of trash... You say this is a "problem" and "unbalanced"... So what are you asking for? Do you think PM wizards should be able to do it all?

Are you asking for ALL classes to be able to do it all (buffs to all other classes), or are you asking for nerfs to the classes who can currently do it all... If it's the latter, why do you think PM wizards being unable to take out bosses with spells is "unbalanced"?

[Thrudh]

They should both equally decent overall, with different strengths and weaknesses.

That's all I said, don't put words in my mouth that say otherwise.

Your own words state that you think it's "unbalanced" that a PM wizard has a weakness...

[Oxarhamar]

Dude . . . if PMs had good red-name DPS they'd be more broken than the brokenest thing we have in DDO.

Do you remember the DOT-era? When casters were putting out as much red-name damage as all but the best melees? That was worse than what we have now.

It's balanced that a PM has bad red-named DPS.

This 100%

I still remember the days of casters beating Wizking with a stick in Heroics.

PM instakillers using me lee on Red Names is just adaptive play no different than a Melee swapping to a bow situationally.

[Such755]

This game will never be balanced.
The sooner you accept it, the sooner you'll enjoy the game more.

Every era there's some OP Class and build.
Deal with it.

[Chai]

Maybe as many people gave up on the game because of "homogenization"of classes, easy buttons and not even a hint of some needed cooperation.
You have the "kill count look at my e ... een guy" and you also have "hey this is pretty cool, how can I support my friends" guy.

Too easy game always becomes boring at one point, no exceptions.
We have same DCs in heroic Gianthold as we had at cap before Motu, melee damage has increased by I don't even know what factor, healing amp tripled, toons with 70% mitigations.
For what ? Noone asked for this. Do you see more groups or more people coming back to game ? No, only "this is better than that", "we need new difficulty", "we need server merges".

It's really stupid. How people don't see this, how it's even possible for mmo to play alone on the highest difficulty with relative ease. Someone please start "autoattack melee" thread like they have done in Lotro.

I agree with you in position however.....this is another fight that was lost years ago.

The statement that no one asked for this is incorrect. Historically there has been a lot of feedback to make the game more soloable, characters more self sufficient, and demanding class balance based on DPS and time of quest completion. People have been asking for this for years. It has been a polarized debate each time it is asked for. Did we forget about the plethora of "my cleric isn't your babysitter" threads?

There are two options they have on this issue. Game balance versus play experience. And the old sandal that is game balance lost that fight. Play experience won out. No need to nerf after every update as it does not enhance play experience. Nerfing is a game balance thing and does not win any popularity contests when it happens.

The era when game balance had a chance was when level 20 was cap, but even then it was already on the ropes and bleeding heavily. Once MOTU was released with EDs, play experience took over and got the KO. People are talking about nerfing classes here, which would accomplish nothing when I can put my wizard into blitz and hack and slash my way through most quests, or put my melee into draconic and nuke entire rooms full of mobs down.

[Tinco]

There are two options they have on this issue. Game balance versus play experience. And the old sandle that is game balance lost that fight. Play experience won out. No need to nerf after every update as it does not enhance play experience. Nerfing is a game balance thing and does not win any popularity contests when it happens.

The perceived antagonism between those concepts is imo not valid and reeks of polemics. Play Experience is an extensional feature of a game, balance is an intensional baseline that defines bounds within which the the former is allowed to manifest. They interact of course but not on the same level and it's certainly not a zero-sum-game, I would even argue that a synergistic effect between the two is possible and desirable if you don't define 'balance' as a state but a process.

[FestusHood]

About a year ago we had a new player in our guild. He decided to make a fleshy archamage. A group of us went to run the quest Prey on the Hunter.

At the end of the quest, my guild leader sent me a tell to "look at the kill count". Sure enough the little first life wizard had killed more of the mobs than all the rest of us combined. That's when my leader mentioned that this explained why they had to put in named mobs and other things that couldn't be instakilled. I agree with him.

Balance is achieved if each character type excels at different things, and all those things combine to make a whole.
Not every character needs to be a self contained island.

[Andoris]

...the creator of the Pale Master Guide is building wizards with melee capacity to deal with red named mobs Melee wizard.

I already commented on how blanket immunities and bosses with hundreds of thousands of HPs are damaging specialists and favoring raw DPS only (LINK). This is just an example of how down the line we are.

I am recently playing a barbarian for the first time. This is not a class I enjoy playing, I really dislike just cleaving to death masses of mobs. Yes, it requires skill, but I couldn't help but notice how self contained the class is. It packs heals, it has some CC via destinies and it has raw DPS (the best kind of DPS in DDO) to clear trash and bosses alike.

Aside from flavor reasons, why play any of the "old" classes and not stick to the uber powerful new overlords? Paladin, barbarian and bard, when build properly, pack absolutely everything you need for 99% of the game. Other classes do not.

Is this where the game is heading? Are we going to be seeing more of this update after update? Where will it stop, when all classes are self contained to the point that you can beat solo any content at any difficulty and not be considered an achievement? And if this does not happen and some classes are not upgraded to this uber level, won't some styles be unfairly penalized?

Thoughts, comments?

Wow, already up to 9 pages, I guess that will teach me not to ignore the forums for 8 hours. I haven’t had a chance to read through the tread yet (I’ll try to do that tonight) but I wanted to respond initially to the OP.

First to clear up some potential mis-conceptions on my DC-Melee Wizard and why I am playing it as present.

I currently have (almost) any PL and EPL that would benefit the build (I guess I could do two more monk, rogue, barb lives.. but really?), every piece of gear that I could ever want, and enough consumables to use them to “burst” whenever I need to. Add that to years of experience playing a DC caster, where I intuitively know the DC thresholds (and when to debuff) for most mobs in the game and have a fairly accurate internal timer to know when my spells are coming off of timer.

If you don’t have a similar level of PLs, Gear, and most importantly experience, this the DC-Melee build will likely be sub-optimal and you are better off going with a straight 20 wizard. If you do have those things, you likely don’t need any advice from me.

The fact that wizards have poor red/purple name DPS should not be your rallying cry. Nor should the fact that a fully maxed out wizard is able to give up a few points of DC’s and slot in a solution to the Red/Purple name problem (frankly, if I couldn’t give up a few points of DC and still be effective, then the majority of wizard players wouldn’t even have a chance). The real issue is that while sitting on mid to upper 70s reflex save I chose to go Heavy Armor over Evasion. As Heavy armor changes (which I take partial responsibility for) have completely unbalanced the game.

DC Wizards have the best trash removal and control in the game. Even ultra-high dps Pally and Barb builds can’t compete when it comes to trash. If Wizards also had good red/purple named dps they would be seriously unbalanced. That it is possible for a fully maxed out Wizard to be able to slot in red/purple name dps (still at ~ 65% of a pally) tells me that they are actually very well balanced… and might even be one of the most balanced classes in the game right now (not too powerful, not too weak, but just right).

IMO, the largest unbalancing factor is the changes to heavy armor and the huge ramp up on Pally dps. They needed a boost, but it is silly to think that my S&B pally has 85%+ of the max dps out there while being nearly un-killable.

There are a lot of balance issues in the game… but wizards are not one of them.

[BigErkyKid]

I didn't. That's what your suggestion would turn into. Gauntlet.

There are plenty of MMOs which play like what you are asking here. People play DDO due to the difference between this game and those other games. The ability to build to account for all things and customize the character is one of the things that keeps this game relevant.

And by doing so, you would have to give up on something. A pure DPS toon should not have build it super regeneration abilities. Relative strengths and weaknesses is the foundation of DDO, not swiss knife toons. Swiss knife toons should have shorter blades.

R
I think some of the recent buffs have been too much as well. I'd be okay with nerfs (although it may be too late).

But your OP says almost the exact opposite... You are upset that PM wizards can't take out red-names easily with their spells... Even though they are kings of trash... You say this is a "problem" and "unbalanced"... So what are you asking for? Do you think PM wizards should be able to do it all?

Are you asking for ALL classes to be able to do it all (buffs to all other classes), or are you asking for nerfs to the classes who can currently do it all... If it's the latter, why do you think PM wizards being unable to take out bosses with spells is "unbalanced"?

I am OK with PM wizards having difficulties with red named mobs. I am not OK with them (and a few other classes) facing difficulties in questing and others not facing them. My solution is to bring DOWN everyone to the same level, not to up them.

Your own words state that you think it's "unbalanced" that a PM wizard has a weakness...

Yes, it is unbalanced right now, because others don't. If others did, I am OK with that.

Waiting 30 mins for a healer, not cool. Parties of self contained toons that do not really need much from anyone to finish content (they could be doing it alone all the same without much added difficulty), not cool.

I come to DDO to strategize and interact with other players in meaningful ways. Right now, where we are heading, is not meaningful for me. If it is for you, enjoy.

[Oxarhamar]

And by doing so, you would have to give up on something. A pure DPS toon should not have build it super regeneration abilities. Relative strengths and weaknesses is the foundation of DDO, not swiss knife toons. Swiss knife toons should have shorter blades.



I am OK with PM wizards having difficulties with red named mobs. I am not OK with them (and a few other classes) facing difficulties in questing and others not facing them. My solution is to bring DOWN everyone to the same level, not to up them.



Yes, it is unbalanced right now, because others don't. If others did, I am OK with that.

Waiting 30 mins for a healer, not cool. Parties of self contained toons that do not really need much from anyone to finish content (they could be doing it alone all the same without much added difficulty), not cool.

I come to DDO to strategize and interact with other players in meaningful ways. Right now, where we are heading, is not meaningful for me. If it is for you, enjoy.

Dev's are bringing classes up to the bar, be prepared to be disappointed.

Your lack of stratagie & interaction is a self created problem.

[BigErkyKid]

That it is possible for a fully maxed out Wizard to be able to slot in red/purple name dps (still at ~ 65% of a pally) tells me that they are actually very well balanced… and might even be one of the most balanced classes in the game right now (not too powerful, not too weak, but just right).
.

You know, I am going to agree with you here. They are well balanced, I think, vs content. But...

...do you think your wizard archetype (which is a DC caster) is well balanced against say paladins or barbarians, everything considered?

By everything considered I mean taking into account trash killing and boss killing. And by wizard archetype I mean a pure wizard damaging with spells. If you found it necessary to move towards melee DPS against red named mobs while giving up some DCs, how on earth are people already struggling with the DCs going to manage playing a DC caster wizard and kill the huge HP bags?

I said it before, I understand that PMs cannot be gods that insta kill and nuke bosses with ease. The fact that they are struggling at something that other classes aren't (the overlord classes) is telling you that there is a lack of balance. That's my point.

How to address this blatant issue of balance, for my taste, is bringing everyone to the situation of the PM. Struggles with some stuff, excels at other. For me this would make a better game than just bringing everyone to the power curve set by paladin, bard and barbarian.

I do have a thread about h armor and I'd rather keep it out of here.

[Andoris]

Is this the thread where we all post "you know the game is unblanced when..." anecdotes and jokes?

Ok here's mine:

You know the game is not balanced when barbarians have more healing amp than paladins.
You know the game is not balanced when bards out DPS rogues and the dev excuse is that rogues can do out of combat "things".
You know the game is not balanced when barbs have better healing, twice the HP and 2-3x the PRR of a rogue, and more DPS too.
You know the game is not balanced when an assassin puts everything into intelligence for assassinate and is still worse than a bard.
You know the game is not balanced when a monk is better off taking 8 fighter levels to use a sword.
You know the game is not balanced when a ranger is better off taking monk levels to be better with a bow.
You know the game is not balanced when a TWF ranger is better off taking 15 levels of paladin.
You know the game is not balanced when a wizard is better off in heavy armour.

Could do plenty more just getting the ball rolling.

This post hit the nail on the head (and on the first page yet). Now I need to figure out what the other 8 pages are all about.

+1, very well said.

[Grailhawk]

Waiting 30 mins for a healer, not cool. Parties of self contained toons that do not really need much from anyone to finish content (they could be doing it alone all the same without much added difficulty), not cool. .

Pick your poison no matter how you slice it or try and work around it you need to have one of these issue, you either need to force people to play a role (waiting for healer trinity style games) or let every one take care of themselves.

Nothing you have suggested like role swapping changes this if a bard doesn't want to heal he shouldn't have to, having an option to switch to a different spec just because you can't find someone who is heal speced to play with you doesn't change the fact that some one has been forced into a role.

[Tinco]

Relative strengths and weaknesses is the foundation of DDO, not swiss knife toons.

You wished. Self-contained characters dominated since the very first inception of the Arcane Toasters.

[Oxarhamar]

You know, I am going to agree with you here. They are well balanced, I think, vs content. But...

...do you think your wizard archetype (which is a DC caster) is well balanced against say paladins or barbarians, everything considered?

By everything considered I mean taking into account trash killing and boss killing. And by wizard archetype I mean a pure wizard damaging with spells. If you found it necessary to move towards melee DPS against red named mobs while giving up some DCs, how on earth are people already struggling with the DCs going to manage playing a DC caster wizard and kill the huge HP bags?

I said it before, I understand that PMs cannot be gods that insta kill and nuke bosses with ease. The fact that they are struggling at something that other classes aren't (the overlord classes) is telling you that there is a lack of balance. That's my point.

How to address this blatant issue of balance, for my taste, is bringing everyone to the situation of the PM. Struggles with some stuff, excels at other. For me this would make a better game than just bringing everyone to the power curve set by paladin, bard and barbarian.

I do have a thread about h armor and I'd rather keep it out of here.

The point that pure DC PM struggle with the Red Named yet can instakill, hold & burst etc... Trash faster than these "overlord classes" which cannot one shot every trash mob or CC every trash mob but, have high enough DPS to beat them down and the Red Names is balance.

[BigErkyKid]

Pick your poison no matter how you slice it or try and work around it you need to have one of these issue, you either need to force people to play a role (waiting for healer trinity style games) or let every one take care of themselves.

Nothing you have suggested like role swapping changes this if a bard doesn't want to heal he shouldn't have to, having an option to switch to a different spec just because you can't find someone who is heal speced to play with you doesn't change the fact that some one has been forced into a role.

If people do not want to cooperate its fine with me. But the game should not reward that, rather, it should make it easier for people who play off each others strengths.

There are plenty of ways to do that without forcing anyone to play nannybot.

In good parties, right now, I just see mobs melting down regardless of whether we try to make it a collaborative effort (people I already know) or we just sort of get going and do our thing (strangers).

The whole mentality of I want to be amazingly good at everything I feel comes from the necessity to farm the game. I even find people who are soloers by necessity (interruptions to the gameplay) are more amenable to the idea of soloing being crafty (as opposed to steamroll).

[BigErkyKid]

The problem I see is that each class keeps getting revamped to basically do just about everything any other class does. The reason why FOTM builds do so well is because it is a single build that does everything the current environment needs without any additional help.

The problems really comes down to...
1. MORE DPS can do it all
2. Non-DPS completion models no longer exists through-out the game

Examples:
At one point the Vorpal/Banisher weapon was the equalizer between Low and High DPS as the rule was if you could not kill something in less than 20 swings the Vorpal/Banisher weapon was the better option.

While still usable in Heroic levels, the Attribute Damage weapons have been hamstrung by extreme recovery timers in Epic. While negative level damage can still provide some nice pseudo-DPS the effects against saves is very short lived usually giving the caster a single chance to land a spell - more if quick enough. By making it so that DPS can kill everything Turbine is essentially guiding players to DPS their character(s). This is what leads people to building towards one type of build. It sort of reminds me of the original Diablo game where it was actually better to start out as the fighter and add spell casting than it was just to start out as the Wizard because the fighter had better survival but could achieve the same spell casting capabilities as going only Wizard.

My recommendations:
Remove the Attribute damage reduced timers in EPIC - This will open up more options than DPS as king.

Create more quests where DPS is not the focus for completion but good party coordination can rule the day. This might mean quests that can be easier to do with 4 players but could be possible to do with less with patience/timing/some tactics

Stop removing immunities from creatures like Golems - These things are suppose to be immune to magical damage

Remove the reduced timers in EPIC on charm based spells. If the caster can charm the creature then let them.

Review the Bards Charm ability as to why its DCs don't use the Perform Skill but are instead based off their casting attribute Why?

Bring in more physical damage immune creatures D&D has these - They don't need to populate the whole dungeon but a few intermixed can make the game more interesting

Improve MOB AI - Have them think reasonably such as not chasing the kiter when there is an easier target or "Heck no I'm not going to stand/run through that AoE" (Unless they are caught in it). Have caster types use a broader range of spells to help their fellows.

Introduce the Silence Spell give it to both PC and NPCs. Let it effect sneak and spell casting appropriately.

Fix AI appropriately so that running Invisible especially in heavy plate gives people away. But sneaking appropriately (Success on DC checks) can get you by.

Bumping this.

[Tinco]

[...], it should make it easier for people who play off each others strengths.

It already is. The misconception that every bard, barb or pally just wades into any EE quest and solos it efficiently is plain wrong. What an eComp/hComp character with maxed out gear and years worth of metagame knowledge can do is not representative of the majority of players. People already regularly group for social and for efficiency reasons. Is it rewarded enough? Imo no, but that's another topic and the reward should not come at the cost of people that like to play solo.

There are plenty of ways to do that without forcing anyone to play nannybot.

Frankly, I don't see them.

[Grailhawk]

If people do not want to cooperate its fine with me. But the game should not reward that, rather, it should make it easier for people who play off each others strengths.

I disagree its a game people should not have to "cooperate" with it they should be able to play it how they see fit.

There are plenty of ways to do that without forcing anyone to play nannybot.

Your suggestions have been to nerf self healing and deference on DPS toons if you nef those how does a group of 6 DPS toon stay alive and complete quests with out some one healing them and taking agro? To prevent nannybot players need to be self sufficient.

In good parties, right now, I just see mobs melting down regardless of whether we try to make it a collaborative effort (people I already know) or we just sort of get going and do our thing (strangers).

This isn't a problem with classes or ability balance its a problem with game difficulty, which when the devs try and adjust they get crucified for (champions anyone).

The whole mentality of I want to be amazingly good at everything I feel comes from the necessity to farm the game. I even find people who are soloers by necessity (interruptions to the gameplay) are more amenable to the idea of soloing being crafty (as opposed to steamroll).

Your logical flaw is thinking every one is amazing at everything there not most people are "amazing" at DPS but only good-passable at defense and healing.

[BigErkyKid]

It already is. The misconception that every bard, barb or pally just wades into any EE quest and solos it efficiently is plain wrong. What an eComp/hComp character with maxed out gear and years worth of metagame knowledge can do is not representative of the majority of players. People already regularly group for social and for efficiency reasons. Is it rewarded enough? Imo no, but that's another topic and the reward should not come at the cost of people that like to play solo.


Frankly, I don't see them.

Oh I am aware that its not all the rolf stop we see in youtube. I am aware because I play the game.

But it is relatively easy, more so than it was in the past, and I do think that cooperation is not very rewarded and that parties do not bring very interesting synergies for the most part.

Some people actually like the game better right now. I do not and in this thread it has become apparent that I am not alone.