You know the game is not balanced properly when...

[BigErkyKid]

...the creator of the Pale Master Guide is building wizards with melee capacity to deal with red named mobs Melee wizard.

I already commented on how blanket immunities and bosses with hundreds of thousands of HPs are damaging specialists and favoring raw DPS only (LINK). This is just an example of how down the line we are.

I am recently playing a barbarian for the first time. This is not a class I enjoy playing, I really dislike just cleaving to death masses of mobs. Yes, it requires skill, but I couldn't help but notice how self contained the class is. It packs heals, it has some CC via destinies and it has raw DPS (the best kind of DPS in DDO) to clear trash and bosses alike.

Aside from flavor reasons, why play any of the "old" classes and not stick to the uber powerful new overlords? Paladin, barbarian and bard, when build properly, pack absolutely everything you need for 99% of the game. Other classes do not.

Is this where the game is heading? Are we going to be seeing more of this update after update? Where will it stop, when all classes are self contained to the point that you can beat solo any content at any difficulty and not be considered an achievement? And if this does not happen and some classes are not upgraded to this uber level, won't some styles be unfairly penalized?

Thoughts, comments?

[bartharok]

...the creator of the Pale Master Guide is building wizards with melee capacity to deal with red named mobs Melee wizard.

I already commented on how blanket immunities and bosses with hundreds of thousands of HPs are damaging specialists and favoring raw DPS only (LINK). This is just an example of how down the line we are.

I am recently playing a barbarian for the first time. This is not a class I enjoy playing, I really dislike just cleaving to death masses of mobs. Yes, it requires skill, but I couldn't help but notice how self contained the class is. It packs heals, it has some CC via destinies and it has raw DPS (the best kind of DPS in DDO) to clear trash and bosses alike.

Aside from flavor reasons, why play any of the "old" classes and not stick to the uber powerful new overlords? Paladin, barbarian and bard, when build properly, pack absolutely everything you need for 99% of the game. Other classes do not.

Is this where the game is heading? Are we going to be seeing more of this update after update? Where will it stop, when all classes are self contained to the point that you can beat solo any content at any difficulty and not be considered an achievement? And if this does not happen and some classes are not upgraded to this uber level, won't some styles be unfairly penalized?

Thoughts, comments?

Since a game is supposed to be fun, flavor reasons are th eonly reason to play them in the first place. If you play the game to get uber, you have lost something on the way in my opinion.

[BigErkyKid]

Since a game is supposed to be fun, flavor reasons are th eonly reason to play them in the first place. If you play the game to get uber, you have lost something on the way in my opinion.

It is an old debate. Some people have fun playing competitively, others don't mind so much. No one is doing it "wrong". Usually, it is accepted that a balanced game caters to both publics, while one where some options are disproportionately better than others does not.

[sk3l3t0r]

the game will never be truly balanced IMO, what is balanced for heroics does not apply for epics. it;s basically two different games.

Players have different play styles and there are many types of players in the game. What one considers balanced, can be overpowered or gimp to another.

It's all a matter of perspective.

What the community may consider un-balanced can be balanced for Turbine. They may have different POVs on how the game is / should be played based on revenue targets are if the game is just enough fun to keep them playing, but not quite fun enough to incite players to want to pay for certain, "game balancing" conveniences or amenities.

Some groups of players may find the game is unbalanced because there is no end game, others may find it unbalanced because the Warlock will nullify their completionist build, and so on..

The problem with balance is that it doesn't work well with change. Change in the game occurs regularly with time (updates, revisions of mechanics and content, etc ...) and will un-balance one aspect while balancing another.

The game can be unblanced because we no longer have roles in parties because classes are all self sufficient now...it all depends on how you define balance is what it all comes down to.

[BigErkyKid]

The game can be unblanced because we no longer have roles in parties because classes are all self sufficient now...it all depends on how you define balance is what it all comes down to.

I draw the line at DC wizard casters having to melee red named mobs. It absurd.

[Ancient]

I draw the line at DC wizard casters having to melee red named mobs. It absurd.

That is the penalty for being overpowered against everything else.

[bartharok]

It is an old debate. Some people have fun playing competitively, others don't mind so much. No one is doing it "wrong". Usually, it is accepted that a balanced game caters to both publics, while one where some options are disproportionately better than others does not.

"Better" is realative. If something caters more to your playstyle, its better (for your playstyle). A game is balanced when it allows you to choose your own playstyle. If playing the game was well nigh impossible to play in any other way than one, then your point would be valid.

[BigErkyKid]

A game is balanced when it allows you to choose your own playstyle.

Exactly. For you this might be completing most quests on whatever flavor build you choose, for others it is having the main archetypes be somehow at the same level of power everything considered, even if played differently.

Competitive players care about balance in that sense and this acknowledged by the devs. They claimed they understood it and were working on it. I am just pointing out that there are gross imbalances in place. To the point of the example, which I think is brutal.

[bartharok]

Exactly. For you this might be completing most quests on whatever flavor build you choose, for others it is having the main archetypes be somehow at the same level of power everything considered, even if played differently.

Competitive players care about balance in that sense and this acknowledged by the devs. They claimed they understood it and were working on it. I am just pointing out that there are gross imbalances in place. To the point of the example, which I think is brutal.

For those seeking an edge, balance is impossible to achieve, since they will seek the edge until its found. And then spread it around, skewing the perception of what works or not.

[Wh070aa]

This game is just not balanced whatsoever.

But yea, the wizards fall off endgame really hard.

I do more damige on my INT based Ranger, than on my int based wizard, with basically same gear(TRed, changed spell power stuff(negative/elemental for positive/switched out to deadly, sneak attack, and deception).

DPS is about the same, but the defense, range, speed and healing are better, and no resource management, or trap/spell problem.
End game casters are just weak.

Edit: to clarify, pure caster play style. You can make a primary caster that is okay. Just primary caster player is weaker than primary ranged, or primary melee. Still its in the middle, having primary tanker,buffer and primary healer below them.

[Chai]

Yes the revamped classes/pre became more powerful. If we complain about that too much to the point where they have to nerf what they just revamped, there will be no overhead in place in which to make the other classes/pre they haven't revamped yet better than they are now.

+1.

I just pointed to one of the most absurd ones. You are right to put the emphasis on rogues. Have you seen the lama changes to rogues?

What happened, did the devs run out of OMPH with the paladin, barb and bard updates?

This is a prime example. They revamped bards. People complained it was too powerful. The nerf bat happened. Then paladins got their revamp. People complained it was too powerful. The nerf bat swung again.

So now there is less overhead in place to revamp the other classes, due to demanding nerfs of the first two revamped classes up front, rather than waiting for all classes to get revamped first, then comparing.

[BigErkyKid]

Yes the revamped classes/pre became more powerful. If we complain about that too much to the point where they have to nerf what they just revamped, there will be no overhead in place in which to make the other classes/pre they haven't revamped yet better than they are now.

I don't like the job they did with their upgrades. If that's where we would be heading, then I'd rather complain now before all classes are like this.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

All things being relative the ONE thing that prevents DDO from EVER being balanced is the absence of a live DUNGEON MASTER to bend, create and modify rules and dice rolls.

Using an off the cuff statistic model based on a bell curve with...

-Completely casual players with no desires to be uber elite anything and really happy with whatever loot and play experience they get on the Lower side.

-FOTM perfect builds doing nothing but EE Raids, EE solo, EE loot grind, EE Epeen Timed runs and however the accepted Uberleet screaming for more challenge crowd views the shy and elusive "endgame" (like the cake...it's a lie) at the Upper end of the challenge curve

-and ALL the other flavors of DDO's builds and play styles making up the BULK of the player base bell curve.

I would have to say the game seems pretty balanced in the absence of a live DM for the majority of the player base.

Whether you are climbing the bell curve in difficulty and game knowledge, staying somewhere in the middle or declining into the depths of NEED MOAR CHALLENGE RAWR at the extreme StonedTripleCompletionistEverything end it is quite balanced and as it should be.

Changing your perspective to the DDO player base as a whole instead of focusing on just what you want out the game goes along way in increasing your enjoyment of it.

[BigErkyKid]

.

I would have to say the game seems pretty balanced in the absence of a live DM for the majority of the player base.

You would be wrong. You can find plenty of bizarre examples of lack of balance mentioned in this thread.

[lyrecono]

...the creator of the Pale Master Guide is building wizards with melee capacity to deal with red named mobs Melee wizard.

I already commented on how blanket immunities and bosses with hundreds of thousands of HPs are damaging specialists and favoring raw DPS only (LINK). This is just an example of how down the line we are.

I am recently playing a barbarian for the first time. This is not a class I enjoy playing, I really dislike just cleaving to death masses of mobs. Yes, it requires skill, but I couldn't help but notice how self contained the class is. It packs heals, it has some CC via destinies and it has raw DPS (the best kind of DPS in DDO) to clear trash and bosses alike.

Aside from flavor reasons, why play any of the "old" classes and not stick to the uber powerful new overlords? Paladin, barbarian and bard, when build properly, pack absolutely everything you need for 99% of the game. Other classes do not.

Is this where the game is heading? Are we going to be seeing more of this update after update? Where will it stop, when all classes are self contained to the point that you can beat solo any content at any difficulty and not be considered an achievement? And if this does not happen and some classes are not upgraded to this uber level, won't some styles be unfairly penalized?

Thoughts, comments?

meh, when cap was 20, casters ruled over everything, the wiz18/rog2 could solo any quest in the game
the cap was raised to 25 and kiters (shiradi sorcs&monckers mostly) ruled the scene.
now a few melee's do, big deal
after being shafted for 7 years, let them have some fun

Is this the thread where we all post "you know the game is unblanced when..." anecdotes and jokes?

Ok here's mine:

You know the game is not balanced when barbarians have more healing amp than paladins.
Paladins having heal amp is strange to begin with, atleast now barbs heal the same % as a standard pali
You know the game is not balanced when bards out DPS rogues and the dev excuse is that rogues can do out of combat "things".
Bards should be about social skills and buffs, true but: a rog sould never be dps but a trap/skill master with the occasional back stab skill, not the hack and slash monster people think he should be.
You know the game is not balanced when barbs have better healing, twice the HP and 2-3x the PRR of a rogue, and more DPS too.
Uhm.... barbs should have more hp then a rog (d6 vs a d12 with con being the first or second most important stat?), a barb should have better prr to compensate for the lack luster dr,- in the game, a barb is a fronline melee, a rog is not, it's a backstabber. The better healing stems out of the game mechanics of ddo. A barb should have better alround dps, a rog should only have situational dps (sneack attack), this isn't WoW.
You know the game is not balanced when an assassin puts everything into intelligence for assassinate and is still worse than a bard.
Bards are op, or rog is gimped, or mobs are badly statted or... and the list goes on.....
You know the game is not balanced when a monk is better off taking 8 fighter levels to use a sword.
uhm, "god hand builds have been realy popular for years....
You know the game is not balanced when a ranger is better off taking monk levels to be better with a bow.
I assumed it was for the stances and free feats, but it's been a whille since i did my moncker lifes, anyways, are you building a ranger or a ranged toon by picking the best pieces?
i bet you can build a pure ranged ranger and get it to 28 by sticking to normal or hard, you don't need monk levels.
You know the game is not balanced when a TWF ranger is better off taking 15 levels of paladin.
thats not a twf ranger but a twf paladin
You know the game is not balanced when a wizard is better off in heavy armour.
Elderich knight is a well known pnp class and was already being done by multiple means in ddo when the cap was 20, anyways, said wizard should drink/eat less suger and learn not to be in the front line all the time

Could do plenty more just getting the ball rolling.

As you can see, it's all a manner of perspective

[brzytki]

Paladins having heal amp is strange to begin with, atleast now barbs heal the same % as a standard pali

Lol, because pally-level heals should be a standard, even for a class that should not have any heals to begin with.

Bards should be about social skills and buffs, true but: a rog sould never be dps but a trap/skill master with the occasional back stab skill, not the hack and slash monster people think he should be.

This could be true ONLY if trap/skill mastery mattered in end-game (in other words, PRR and MRR not working on traps) AND rogue had better defenses/healing. Actually, no. In a game that's revolving around DPS every melee class should have balanced (read: be within 5-10% of the DPS of others, single target).

Uhm.... barbs should have more hp then a rog (d6 vs a d12 with con being the first or second most important stat?), a barb should have better prr to compensate for the lack luster dr,- in the game, a barb is a fronline melee, a rog is not, it's a backstabber. The better healing stems out of the game mechanics of ddo. A barb should have better alround dps, a rog should only have situational dps (sneack attack), this isn't WoW.

If you take each of those things separately, then it might be true in PnP (apart from barb heals) but it's an MMO. Combine all of those things (HP, PRR, DPS, heals, traps that don't matter anymore) and there is no appeal in playing a rogue for a standard player apart from flavor. And when barely anyone plays the class, it gets shelved.

Bards are op, or rog is gimped, or mobs are badly statted or... and the list goes on.....

No, the list doesn't go on and on. Rogue is not gimped. Bard is just OP. I mean, it doesn't take even 5 minutes to figure out that if you put skill mod in the DC of an insta-kill it will be OP.

thats not a twf ranger but a twf paladin

That's the point.

[PermaBanned]

It is an old debate. Some people have fun playing competitively, others don't mind so much. No one is doing it "wrong". Usually, it is accepted that a balanced game caters to both publics, while one where some options are disproportionately better than others does not.

There is no balance to be had. If all pure classes are equally balanced among eachother, then min/max multi-class builds will still be uber. If multi-class builds are {somehow} balanced, then pure classes will be out of balance with eachother. As long as customization and flexibility of choice is available, there will always be a spectrum of gimp -> viable -> optimal. Balance is the cake, and the cake is a lie

[slarden]

There is no balance to be had. If all pure classes are equally balanced among eachother, then min/max multi-class builds will still be uber. If multi-class builds are {somehow} balanced, then pure classes will be out of balance with eachother. As long as customization and flexibility of choice is available, there will always be a spectrum of gimp -> viable -> optimal. Balance is the cake, and the cake is a lie

Very much this.

I thought the whole purpose of the balance changes was so that these pure classes that were considered weak could be brought up closer to multi-class FOTM builds.

I don't think pure paladin, barbarian or swashbuckler are top tier builds. They are just B+ builds that are really easy to make and gear up - like Shiradi casters always have been. A properly constructed treeman build or melee druid still beats them all.

People despise these builds because they are easy - not because they are the most over-powered builds in the game.

[BigErkyKid]

I don't think pure paladin, barbarian or swashbuckler are top tier builds.
...
A properly constructed treeman build or melee druid still beats them all.

Serious? So to say that paladins, barbarians and swash are not top you need to bring obviously exploitative builds to compare?

Well I think that if the yardstick has become the tree exploit build, this says it all regarding the state of the game.

[Ayseifn]

Is this the thread where we all post "you know the game is unblanced when..." anecdotes and jokes?

Ok here's mine:

You know the game is not balanced when barbarians have more healing amp than paladins.
You know the game is not balanced when bards out DPS rogues and the dev excuse is that rogues can do out of combat "things".
You know the game is not balanced when barbs have better healing, twice the HP and 2-3x the PRR of a rogue, and more DPS too.
You know the game is not balanced when an assassin puts everything into intelligence for assassinate and is still worse than a bard.
You know the game is not balanced when a monk is better off taking 8 fighter levels to use a sword.
You know the game is not balanced when a ranger is better off taking monk levels to be better with a bow.
You know the game is not balanced when a TWF ranger is better off taking 15 levels of paladin.
You know the game is not balanced when a wizard is better off in heavy armour.

Could do plenty more just getting the ball rolling.