You know the game is not balanced properly when...

[Grailhawk]

You don't have a deep enough understanding of the game if every class you play isn't OP. Case in point. Most players think pure ranged rangers are weak. In my hands, they are OP. So is everything else.



Can a barb, bard, or paladin hit for 2.4k at level 10?

Get over yourself.

You just kind of made his point for him this game is too easy and doesn't require any team work.

And I've seen bards and paladins hit for +900 pules in that level range, they just don't get to make 4 attacks in a row easily like a repeater does.

[Severlin]

and then they look at the proposed Rogue changes and go "***" and cry foul.

We had the exact same feedback about Paladin and Barbarian before they hit Lamannia. We *still* have players mad that Barbarians didn't get enough of a boost even though there are Barbarian builds that are performing as well as Paladins in every test we've tried with them.

The game is in a much better place. Previously the end game was limited to pretty much casters and ranged Evasion builds. That was all that was really considered for top end builds. Everything else was considered a niche build. Melee wasn't really viable, nor was armor. Now Bard, Paladins, and Barbarians are doing well. People have a reason to actually wear heavy armor. Melee is an actual playstyle, and characters built for it can actually melee against foes without immediately dying.

If we want to talk about imbalance I think they can be listed with several issues. (Note that most of these are my fault.)

~ The base values for armor are a little too high. When we changed the formula to 100/(100 + Rating) we changed most of the sources, but didn't change the base armor values from 45/30/15. This will be rectified in the next update when they are changed to 30/20/10.

~ Holy Sword is over-performing. This is also my fault. My math did not take into account that Improved Critical is not working like the pen and paper version and is instead doubling the entire critical range. Varg (and some of the more math oriented players) discussed this, but by the time I could get hard numbers on the issue and figure out why my math was wrong it was really late in the update's cycle. Unfortunately critical threat range and multipliers really can't be dialed back without removing them entirely, and at the time there was a lot of forum concern that the Paladin changes still wouldn't be enough. So rather than pulling it at the last minute I let the changes go through. This is MY fault.

(The light damage is probably a bit too high for Knight of the Chalice but it doesn't scale in the same fashion.)

~ For Barbarians the Ravager heal is probably too strong and the overall extra damage is probably too good for TWF barbarians. We are seeing some impressive numbers from builds using TWF to take advantage of all the barbarian damage bonuses. This is my fault as well because, to be honest, I let myself be talked by the community into some over-buffing.


Note that even though we talk about some abilities over performing we have not planned any nerfs to Paladin or Barbarian other than the armor changes. We probably want to see how these builds perform in the harder Temple of Elemental Evil hard and elite modes before we talk about further balancing. One of the reasons we avoid frank discussions about power balancing is we don't want players to get stressed about potential nerfs when we aren't planning them.

~ Swashbuckler does not seem to be overperforming in our tests. The DPS is strong, but it is mostly single target and it is in a good place for us. We understand that Coup de Grace has a high DC. Using Perform as a DC has been a bard thing for a while and even though it makes the DC very high it seems fine since it is single target, has a 15 second cooldown, and requires the enemy to be helpless. Yes, we know its easy to compare to Assassinate, but we want Rogues to have their own advantages and not just copy the Bard enhancements. We are watching Coup de Grace for potential issues, of course, but we think it will be fine.

As for future plans, we have gone over our plans several times. We are working on a Rogue pass, we have Ranged Power coming, and we have a Ranger pass coming at some point. We are looking at Warlock of course, and we want to get the third trees for Favored Soul and Druid in this year. When we do the Druid tree we will also fix up forms so they can get good DPS without exploiting other systems. Fighter is in good shape as it just got Vanguard and an update to Stalwart Defender, but at some point we want to touch up Kensai.

(We are fairly happy with the performance of casters.)

Sev~

[Severlin]

No one ever liked waiting for X role no one.

The game did get easier but not because all toons are self-sufficient.

While I have played many holy trinity games (tank/healer/DPS) and while many are fun, we don't want to move this game in that direction. Although they can promote teamwork, we feel that the price of waiting as a DPS for an hour to find a healer or a tank is far more of a detriment to this game than the benefits of requiring those roles in normal content.

Our plan to encourage teamwork is to make the XP rewards encourage teamwork, make the death penalty character specific, and make new content hard enough on hard and elite that friends are welcome.

Sev~

[Chai]

I agree in principle to your suggestion, but as others have mentioned.. we are over 3 years away from them getting through "all the classes". In addition, there has been no indication that they intend to re-vamp "all the classes".

If your process is to work, the time between the first revamp and the last needs to be considerably shorter (maybe a year at most).

The only reason it has to be a shorter timeframe is lack of patience on the part of players, who for some reason, insist on comparing 2015 revamped classes to 2012 non revamped classes, in order to declae the revamped classes are too powerful. If those classes ARE too powerful and the knee jerk reaction is to insist on nerfs now rather than wait, then those folks providing said feedback made their own bed when rogue isn't made as powerful, due to disallowing the headroom previous revamps provided to do so, by insisting on nerfs.

In order for us to have patience to "wait and see" it would be fair to ask the Devs to give us a high level road map of where we are going. When we should expect the individual classes/trees to be revamped, which classes need a boost (and where) and which classes might see a decrease in effectiveness ( and where).

Give me confidence that there is a plan that we are working towards and I will be more patient. The devs haven't really delivered in communicating the vision and plan.

In the absence of that, it is fair that the players are seeing a huge power jump with 3 classes (which I agree needed some love, just not as much as they got); and then they look at the proposed Rogue changes and go "***" and cry foul.

I don't believe its fair at all, because they made their own bed by insisting on nerfs now rather than wait, which put a limit on the headroom available to make rogue more powerful or kensai more powerful etc.....

The issue with the devs providing the road map with even a rough estimate of a timeframe is that if something happens where the timeframe cannot be strictly adhered to, there will be hell or high water feedback due to much of what Turbine employees post being seen as ironclad set in stone promises by forumites.

The current lack of patience is kind of odd, because previous builds did not become less effective when bard, barbarian, and paladin were revamped. Previous builds did not become obsolete. Demanding nerfs comparing 2015 models to 2012 models simply doesn't work to progress the game, because it attempts to halt class power at what it was in 2012.

[Failedlegend]

make the death penalty character specific

Oh yes thank you Sev, I cannot wait for this.

[Qhualor]

While I have played many holy trinity games (tank/healer/DPS) and while many are fun, we don't want to move this game in that direction. Although they can promote teamwork, we feel that the price of waiting as a DPS for an hour to find a healer or a tank is far more of a detriment to this game than the benefits of requiring those roles in normal content.

Our plan to encourage teamwork is to make the XP rewards encourage teamwork, make the death penalty character specific, and make new content hard enough on hard and elite that friends are welcome.

Sev~

so basically what you are saying is, this is as hard as we are going to see DDO be? so these past lives and acquiring better gear and learning to play smarter is so I can feel challenged when I solo? I know there are specific quests and raids that are group challenging, but for the most part, its "friends welcome".

im assuming you mean the Flawless bonus because you don't actually encourage teamwork by making the death penalty character specific.

edit: you know I had high hopes and I was lead to believe that challenge would be injected back into the game. I didn't think we needed to go back to those trinity days, content could still be tough enough to encourage grouping by really wanting a full party rather than jump into the quest with "IP" in the lfm notes. I see now I was wrong and will be doing some serious thinking on how I want to approach DDO from this point on.

[Systern]

As for future plans, we have gone over our plans several times. We are working on a Rogue pass, we have Ranged Power coming, and we have a Ranger pass coming at some point. We are looking at Warlock of course, and we want to get the third trees for Favored Soul and Druid in this year. When we do the Druid tree we will also fix up forms so they can get good DPS without exploiting other systems. Fighter is in good shape as it just got Vanguard and an update to Stalwart Defender, but at some point we want to touch up Kensai.


Sev~

No Arti Love beyond ranged power? Sad Panda.
Or is Arti's third tree going to be shared with mechanic?

[Severlin]

so basically what you are saying is, this is as hard as we are going to see DDO be? so these past lives and acquiring better gear and learning to play smarter is so I can feel challenged when I solo? I know there are specific quests and raids that are group challenging, but for the most part, its "friends welcome".

im assuming you mean the Flawless bonus because you don't actually encourage teamwork by making the death penalty character specific.

edit: you know I had high hopes and I was lead to believe that challenge would be injected back into the game. I didn't think we needed to go back to those trinity days, content could still be tough enough to encourage grouping by really wanting a full party rather than jump into the quest with "IP" in the lfm notes. I see now I was wrong and will be doing some serious thinking on how I want to approach DDO from this point on.

No, I am saying the complete opposite of what you just said.

We are planning on having Hard mode for ToEE be hard, and Elite to be really hard. A much larger ramp up than the content you are used to. Our plan for end game folk who want hard content that promotes teamwork is giving that to them for the new content we are introducing.

Sev~

[Wizza]

As for future plans, we have gone over our plans several times. We are working on a Rogue pass, we have Ranged Power coming, and we have a Ranger pass coming at some point. We are looking at Warlock of course, and we want to get the third trees for Favored Soul and Druid in this year. When we do the Druid tree we will also fix up forms so they can get good DPS without exploiting other systems. Fighter is in good shape as it just got Vanguard and an update to Stalwart Defender, but at some point we want to touch up Kensai.

(We are fairly happy with the performance of casters.)

Sev~

I thought there was planned a third Sorcerer's tree at some point. Did you just put it aside?

As for the rest of the reply, I'll reply better tomorrow.

[Severlin]

No Arti Love beyond ranged power? Sad Panda.
Or is Arti's third tree going to be shared with mechanic?

No shared tree. Steelstar would kill me. He's been dying to work on the third Artificer tree. And an Artificer ED for that matter.

Sev~

[Severlin]

I thought there was planned a third Sorcerer's tree at some point. Did you just put it aside?

As for the rest of the reply, I'll reply better tomorrow.

Probably? There's a weird Sorcerer issue where we don't really know if they have two trees or five with the various elements. I think most players would say two trees. Regardless they have a lot of options, but we will probably get them an additional tree at some point.

Sev~

[brzytki]

Can a barb, bard, or paladin hit for 2.4k at level 10 against a target with 100% fort?

You mean against a helpless target with damage boost going? Sure, they can.

[BigErkyKid]

We had the exact same feedback about Paladin and Barbarian before they hit Lamannia. We *still* have players mad that Barbarians didn't get enough of a boost even though there are Barbarian builds that are performing as well as Paladins in every test we've tried with them.

That's because paladins have awesome build in defenses and have never meant to be top dogs in DPS.

The game is in a much better place. Previously the end game was limited to pretty much casters and ranged Evasion builds. That was all that was really considered for top end builds. Everything else was considered a niche build. Melee wasn't really viable, nor was armor. Now Bard, Paladins, and Barbarians are doing well. People have a reason to actually wear heavy armor. Melee is an actual playstyle, and characters built for it can actually melee against foes without immediately dying.

I actually rooted for those changes. But it was too much, as you acknowledge later on this post. Now casters and ranged builds are still OP wrt to content, just people mostly don't feel it matters because so are melees.

~ The base values for armor are a little too high.[...]This will be rectified in the next update when they are changed to 30/20/10.

This is a very small change.

~ Holy Sword is over-performing. This is also my fault. My math did not take into account that Improved Critical is not working like the pen and paper version and is instead doubling the entire critical range. Varg (and some of the more math oriented players) discussed this, but by the time I could get hard numbers on the issue and figure out why my math was wrong it was really late in the update's cycle. Unfortunately critical threat range and multipliers really can't be dialed back without removing them entirely, and at the time there was a lot of forum concern that the Paladin changes still wouldn't be enough. So rather than pulling it at the last minute I let the changes go through. This is MY fault.

Waiting a bit more in lama would have let you know. The same mistake was made in pulverizer vs headman's chop.

~ For Barbarians the Ravager heal is probably too strong and the overall extra damage is probably too good for TWF barbarians. We are seeing some impressive numbers from builds using TWF to take advantage of all the barbarian damage bonuses. This is my fault as well because, to be honest, I let myself be talked by the community into some over-buffing.

Well, once you start buffing like you did with paladins and bards, everyone wants their cake. If paladins deal impressive DPS and have amazing self heals, why shouldn't barbarians have them? The same can be said about every class that's why you are getting so much flag in the TA thread.

Note that even though we talk about some abilities over performing we have not planned any nerfs to Paladin or Barbarian other than the armor changes. We probably want to see how these builds perform in the harder Temple of Elemental Evil hard and elite modes before we talk about further balancing. One of the reasons we avoid frank discussions about power balancing is we don't want players to get stressed about potential nerfs when we aren't planning them.

Suppose you get balance right in the temple of elemental evil. What about the rest of the game?

~ Swashbuckler does not seem to be overperforming in our tests. The DPS is strong, but it is mostly single target and it is in a good place for us. We understand that Coup de Grace has a high DC. Using Perform as a DC has been a bard thing for a while and even though it makes the DC very high it seems fine since it is single target, has a 15 second cooldown, and requires the enemy to be helpless. Yes, we know its easy to compare to Assassinate, but we want Rogues to have their own advantages and not just copy the Bard enhancements. We are watching Coup de Grace for potential issues, of course, but we think it will be fine.

Swash + fighter + rogue is an amazingly strong build. It packs heals, evasion, self healing, good PRR and MRR, CC, insta kills, excellent boss DPS, excellent dodge, self casted displacement, utility (traps, DDoor). Are all classes going to get the equivalent in terms of power and utility?

As for future plans, we have gone over our plans several times. We are working on a Rogue pass, we have Ranged Power coming, and we have a Ranger pass coming at some point. We are looking at Warlock of course, and we want to get the third trees for Favored Soul and Druid in this year. When we do the Druid tree we will also fix up forms so they can get good DPS without exploiting other systems. Fighter is in good shape as it just got Vanguard and an update to Stalwart Defender, but at some point we want to touch up Kensai.

Fighter is NOT in a good place, completely outclassed by paladin in every possible sense. Vanguard is good, but it is much better as paladin than as fighter. It is not in the same planet.

I think you need to understand that from the player base perspective, these upgrades are like shiradi spams. Sometimes its just weak sauce, sometimes you give amazing power. It also comes at a class per update, which means that the full class revamp will take years. It is incredibly hard to comment on your upgrades without having a full picture of where you are heading.

Is content going to be amazing hard in a future end game so that we no longer talk about rolf stomping it? Will it encourage cooperation because otherwise single toons are highly likely to be pawned in high difficulties? Will there be end game at all?

When will it be, in 1 year, 2 year, 2 months? Will this end game be raid based? Do you plan to upgrade previous legendary gear that is now trash? Do you realize that current end game (eTRing) is incredibly frustrating because it incentivizes running time and again the same quests in off destinies and not using your best gear? Will there be server mergers?

At this point I honestly don't care very much if one class or another gets a tree, I am more concerned with the overall direction of the game.

[General_Gronker]

and an artificer ed for that matter.

woot!!!

[Failedlegend]

No Arti Love beyond ranged power? Sad Panda.
Or is Arti's third tree going to be shared with mechanic?

I thought there was planned a third Sorcerer's tree at some point. Did you just put it aside?

As for the rest of the reply, I'll reply better tomorrow.

Yep yep don't forget Arty or Sorceror

I vote for Rage Mage for Sorc

[Andoris]

What youre asking for is essentially Gauntlet, with better graphics.

It technically plays differently, but not really. I still move the character around using the same joystick and mash the same button to hit things.

I don't want the awesome trash killing PM who sucks at boss DPS to get better at boss DPS. I want that PM to have a reason to invite the rogue (someone who should be good at boss DPS) to the group.

Agreed, a raid group of 12 of the same build (or 11 of the same build and 1 multiplier build) should not be the best option. Every archetype should be good at something and nothing should be "best" or near best at everything.

Unfortunately, that is not the state of the game at present.

[Grailhawk]

Give me confidence that there is a plan that we are working towards and I will be more patient. The devs haven't really delivered in communicating the vision and plan.

In the absence of that, it is fair that the players are seeing a huge power jump with 3 classes (which I agree needed some love, just not as much as they got); and then they look at the proposed Rogue changes and go "***" and cry foul.

The players crying foul are wrong Thief Acrobat has been buffed to the same levels as Barbarian in terms of raw DPS, they have a few issues that Barbarians don't, they need to not have argo so they can get there SA, and don't have the regen to make them godly solo, but in a group they will be beasts, but these things just make for a different play experience (they need to manage there agro).

[Wizza]

No shared tree. Steelstar would kill me. He's been dying to work on the third Artificer tree. And an Artificer ED for that matter.

Sev~

Good news. ETA?

Probably? There's a weird Sorcerer issue where we don't really know if they have two trees or five with the various elements. I think most players would say two trees. Regardless they have a lot of options, but we will probably get them an additional tree at some point.

Sev~

I would agree with two trees. You could have made one with multi-selector, it would be just the same.

[mikarddo]

Sev

I really like your frank and to the point style. By all means please continue that.

There is one thing I really wish to hear your thoughts on though and that is Mortal Fear. Being ML 28 it plays a relatively minor role atm as few remain 28 for long but once the cap goes up MF seems primed to rule supreme. If it was just the stated 50% it would probably be alright but seeing that most builds have ways to boost helpless damage its often a full instant kill and damage numbers above 100k are not unheard of and scaling the game to 30 and making content harder only makes such numbers more common. I am curious how you view MF.

[Oxarhamar]

Sev

I really like your frank and to the point style. By all means please continue that.

There is one thing I really wish to hear your thoughts on though and that is Mortal Fear. Being ML 28 it plays a relatively minor role atm as few remain 28 for long but once the cap goes up MF seems primed to rule supreme. If it was just the stated 50% it would probably be alright but seeing that most builds have ways to boost helpless damage its often a full instant kill and damage numbers above 100k are not unheard of and scaling the game to 30 and making content harder only makes such numbers more common. I am curious how you view MF.

If be curious also but, I rarely see mortal fear making a difference in trash as their 10k hp is not enough to matter if it doesn't go off early.

I think being mostly helpful on the 100-250k mini bosses that are not immune is ok.