Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Scrabbler]

This would be a terrible decision, because bards are already feat starved

Feat starved... maybe you missed the update about Overwhelming Critical.

and 2 feats + 1 twist is a high enough opportunity cost to justify leaving it in.

What other feat choices could have similar value?

Right now builds have them both and the game isnt more broken than it already was before.

That's a really low threshold when you put it that way.

In terms of using two fighting styles at once, let's also allow Tempest to use TWF alongside SWF, and let's say Ravager gets THF + S&B. Why not, right?

[Chai]

In terms of using two fighting styles at once, let's also allow Tempest to use TWF alongside SWF, and let's say Ravager gets THF + S&B. Why not, right?

Hes labeling it a "bug" due to the SWF description stating you must have empty hand, rune arm, or orb. Im counter claiming because the skirmisher enhancement specifically states that you may use a buckler and the SWF feat line.

If its not intended for both to be used at the same time, they sure botched that by providing an enhancement that allows both to be used at the same time, and specifically states that in the description.

I dont want to use 2 fighting styles at once. I want to use SWF and shield mastery. Shield mastery is not a fighting style. SWF is the fighting style, and I have an enhancement that specifically states I can use that with a buckler. I should then be able to use shield mastery.

THF + shield mastery already exists in game, with bastard sword and dwarven ax. .

[Systern]

We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.

Sev~

Might I ask why? This is an obvious build path at the moment. Single weapon Fighting wants doublestrike. Shield Mastery increases doublestrike. If the extra 15% melee power would make this build over the top (I don't think so), then you can always do what you did in swashbuckler: Put the power in an enhancement in the upcoming Vanguard tree. In the fighter version, make it anti-requisite to not take the skirmisher enhancement. Problem solved.

In Update 23, you're removing all PRR from Bucklers.
You're not adding any MRR to them.
You're removing the ability to spend a feat to add PRR to your squishy d6 hitdie melee.
You're removing the ability to take those feats for doublestrike.


Why would anyone want the skirmisher enhancements next update? Don't you think it's silly to have Swashbucklers without bucklers?


You want to buff dex builds, but you're removing all the tools to do so.
I've been playing my pure bard as a dex build swashbuckler. Hacking down EE minibosses with 244,000 hit points (a la Storm Horns) with a +3w[d8] weapon is horribly, painfully, tedious. It's not fun. Adding 15% melee power in the shield feats, at the opportunity cost of taking any of the other feats that a Bard may want, seems reasonable. Remember you're designing this so that the only benefit that a buckler will give your character is at the added price of feats. Limiting the options to spending 1 AP to be limited to using a buckler (which is under-represented in loot) to get 10% dodge is too narrowing. That will be the only option left.

You've made a tree with an obvious build path, but are focusing in on Flav's and Cetus's feedback that the stuff you design should not be as elite and viable as their pet monsters. People have been begging for years to have pure characters as viable as the multiclass characters. You finally make one and now you're looking to gut it immediately.

You want to balance melee? Get rid of the obscene strength stacking so that Cetus can no longer get 77 strength. Lower that to Dex standards. Delete psionic bonus types, yugoloth pots, etc, etc, etc.


It's silly to make the SWF and Shield Mastery feats mutually exclusive: Why would a fighter, that gets an abundance of feats, not want to be able to situationally wear a shield to tank but have nothing in the off hand for a DPS option? Why is this "wrong"?
Would you even consider facing the lynch mob marching down Dedham st, turning onto Nahanton St by proclaiming that Improved Precise Shot/Many Shot are mutually exclusive to the other Fighting Lines?
Face the lynch mob by proclaiming that Many Shot and 10k Stars are mutually exclusive?
Why would you consider disabling valid, non-OP builds?

[Rull]

Of course that's incorrect on both points.


The dominant focus of the Skirmisher enhancement is that you have the option to use a Buckler item, not that you can also activate Shield feats at the same time as SWF.


The best way is by disallowing the use of any two kinds of combat style feats at the same time, such as SWF and S&B.


As I already said, I don't want to take away Bucklers. I'd let those players make the choice of using SWF or S&B feats. If the S&B feats aren't good enough for that option to be appealing, then that's the problem.

Scrabbler is right in this.
You can choose between 10% dodge + whatever the buckler gives you
or 10% doublestrike and +5 dmg
That choice is fine as it is. Don't need the feats for that, just get that tradeoff to work.

I think the "whatever the buckler gives you" may need to be looked at.
It feels very very weird that holding a shield, even a tiny one like a buckler, does not increase your defense in the form of inherent PRR and MRR, even if it's just 3. The AC is not doing it. I disagree on that part of the overhaul.
Not having it work inherently but do having it benefit from masteries is upside down imo.


I too am a bit sad though, we were so close. It would have been one of my design goals, to create an environment where the shield mastery weapon style is used, and in particular also used by someone other than the old intimitank.
If you could somehow, in some way, make a Shield Mastery (instead of SWF) swashbuckler viable, that would be quite the accomplishment (oh, and a phalanx while you're at it)

[lain5246]

Even with a band-aid exception like that, it still doesn't make sense for SWF swashbucklers to be the only build in the game (other then bastard swords) that can combine 2 separate combat feat lines.
If SWF is too weak without shield mastery, then buff SWF.
If its swashbucklers that are too weak without shield mastery, then buff swashbucklers.

it makes sense when you read the wording on the feats. also the builds that use the combo styles are not breaking the game. they are more flavor that over powered. and the feats prevent broken builds from being a threat because of wording and feat cost. if my pure bard takes shield feats and swf feats than i cant take a bunch of meta magics, weapon feats or past lives. also i will not have the hp or optional weapons that a sword and board fighter will have. it should be ok to have some exceptions to the exclusive fighting styles because it requires very specific build choices to obtain.

[9001]

I'm seeing some arguement as to whether bards should get SWF and shield feats with bucklers.

One of the issues I see here is the fact that a bard WITH both will be better than a bard that goes SWF and empty handed (don't forget the 10% dodge too!) I think the issue is whether that would, especially if the shield feats are improved, make buckler swashbucklers much stronger than empty hand swashbucklers (and maybe runearm ones? Not sure how much they get). Swashbuckler is already pretty powerful, but just take two fighter levels and you've already almost bought the shield feats for free, as well as access to some fighter enhancements if they choose to take them. A pure bard will likely have issues fitting all the feats in. IF buckler bards are just THAT much more powerful than other options, then they may feel forced to do so.

Some people have suggested that the new tank tree (is that still in or did it get scrapped?) should use swf. I feel like it would be better to upgrade the shield feats (or make the bsword/daxe better, though that's a little restrictive, weapon-wise), BUT they could have that so it's tiered like it is now, with bucklers getting less of a bonus than heavy/tower shields. That would help shield builds without unduly upgrading buckler bards.

Glad to see that there's a discussion going on and that the devs are trying to incorporate player opinion into their decisions.

[Grailhawk]

One of the discussions here is revolving around whether or not an automatic increase to melee damage through epic levels is a good idea. I'd like to just toss something out there.

Let's say it's not automatic and the only source of melee power is options within the destiny trees. If the destiny tree carries all the power and 3 to 4 options in the tree have melee power attached to them would you feel you actually have a choice? Would anyone actually choose to have 50% less damage than someone else by skipping those options? We'd pretty much be forced into taking those options. On the flip-side if every option has melee power so we end up nearly at the same amount no matter what we choose then it may as well be an automatic thing granted with epic levels and just leave it out of the trees.

Since its too late for them to go back and create epic class levels (its also probably cost prohibited) what they should do IMO is grant a new feat on every epic level (this would be in addition to any normal epic feat or destiny feat) and have the character choose from a list of 3 or 4 feat that can be taken more then once. Exaples of the feats would be
Martial Training: +10 Melee Power, +1 BAB, +20 HP
Arcane Training: +2 Spell Power, +25 SP, +1 Arcane Caster level
Primal Training: +5 Melee Power, +5 Ranged Power, +10 HP, +10 SP

It gives the illusion of choice at the very least which epic levels are missing.

[Chai]

I'm seeing some arguement as to whether bards should get SWF and shield feats with bucklers.

One of the issues I see here is the fact that a bard WITH both will be better than a bard that goes SWF and empty handed (don't forget the 10% dodge too!) I think the issue is whether that would, especially if the shield feats are improved, make buckler swashbucklers much stronger than empty hand swashbucklers (and maybe runearm ones? Not sure how much they get). Swashbuckler is already pretty powerful, but just take two fighter levels and you've already almost bought the shield feats for free, as well as access to some fighter enhancements if they choose to take them. A pure bard will likely have issues fitting all the feats in. IF buckler bards are just THAT much more powerful than other options, then they may feel forced to do so.

Some people have suggested that the new tank tree (is that still in or did it get scrapped?) should use swf. I feel like it would be better to upgrade the shield feats (or make the bsword/daxe better, though that's a little restrictive, weapon-wise), BUT they could have that so it's tiered like it is now, with bucklers getting less of a bonus than heavy/tower shields. That would help shield builds without unduly upgrading buckler bards.

Glad to see that there's a discussion going on and that the devs are trying to incorporate player opinion into their decisions.

The pure bard would also have evasion. The 2 fighter splash would not. Youd have to take 2 rogue to get the evasion back, thus removing the level 18 core. They made the capstone good enough where its a trade off.

[Aelonwy]

I'm seeing some arguement as to whether bards should get SWF and shield feats with bucklers.

*snip*

There was no perceived problem till they proposed adding melee power to the shield feats. Disallowing melee power to bucklers from shield feats but allowing SWF to take shield feats would still allow bards to gain the defensive benefits that choosing to be a skirmisher buckler-user has so far permitted.

If shield feats are now going to be considered a combat style (rather than situational defensive feats) and all combat styles are going to be mutually exclusive that is going to put a serious crimp in my so far pure fighter dwarf who was using THF feats, and shield feats and a combination of dwarven axes and great axes. When defense is important my dwarf doesn't bother with a buckler she uses a heavy shield/tower shield, so far she has three from the Shield fragment turn-ins.

Since its too late for them to go back and create epic class levels (its also probably cost prohibited) what they should do IMO is grant a new feat on every epic level (this would be in addition to any normal epic feat or destiny feat) and have the character choose from a list of 3 or 4 feat that can be taken more then once. Exaples of the feats would be
Martial Training: +10 Melee Power, +1 BAB, +20 HP
Arcane Training: +2 Spell Power, +25 SP, +1 Arcane Caster level
Primal Training: +5 Melee Power, +5 Ranged Power, +10 HP, +10 SP

It gives the illusion of choice at the very least which epic levels are missing.

I kind of like this but I would add two more options:
Ranged Martial Training: +10 Ranged Power, +1 BAB, +20 HP
Divine Training: +2 Spell Power, +25 SP, +1 Divine Caster Level

[lain5246]

I would like for you to explain why you think that the very few build options that could make use of 2 fighting styles is unacceptable? in each instance that you can pair up fighting styles you are heavily restricted on weapon choices and off hand choices, and from reading dev postings, it seems acceptable to be able to have certain abilities work better than others together. I also noticed that the anti rec for fighting styles is unnecessary because of wording. I.E. thf and swf or thf and twf or finally swf and twf. twf can never work with any of the other feats because it requires 2 weapons. you can achieve the swf and thf with bastard swords or daxes but both of those require feats. otherwise your off hand is full with the other weapons you can use with thf. So Why Cant We Have Exceptions To The Rule if The Person Is Willing To Waste Their Feats?

[Coldin]

This would be a terrible decision, because bards are already feat starved, and 2 feats + 1 twist is a high enough opportunity cost to justify leaving it in. Youll be nerfing doublestrike and survivability from something that already qualifies for it in every single other way, other than the arbitrary "we cant allow you have these both at the same time". Right now builds have them both and the game isnt more broken than it already was before.





According to this, which is how the in game description on the enhancement, and wiki descriptions read, it is not a bug, as skirmisher allows you to specifically use bucklers with SWF.

The bug here is that you can take SWF and Shield Mastery feats at the same time. While this isn't a big issue right now, it could lead to problems with the DPS boost. Making the two sets of feats exclusive may not be the best solution, but players wouldn't lost much if this change happened during the update.

[MrFestive]

I generally think that the concept of Melee Power is a good one. It provides a more unified and scalable way to deal with increases to damage and provides a (hopefully) consistent mechanic to do so in the same way that Spell Power and weapon dice (W) do. That being said, I think a couple of things could improve it. Consider adding additional granularity -- Ranged Power and/or Throwing Power have been mentioned already, but it might also be useful to be able to boost just Piercing/Slashing/Bludgeoning Power. It could even be useful to boost individual weapon types. All of these various Powers could basically operate in the same way that current Spell Power does. I haven't thought it through, but what if the existing Kensai specialization damage bonuses or TA/Monk QS bonuses were replaced with targeted Power increases. It would presumably scale better with levels as it would be a percentage boost to damage that would presumably increase as other damage bonuses did due to strength or level increases. Specializing in low damage weapons would be effectively penalized as a percentage increase wouldn't be as good as a flat bump though. I'm sure there are other issues as well, but it might work.

I would also think about defining damage types into categories in order to determine what bonuses stack and what bonuses apply. Within the codebase, all damage should be typed somehow (except for untyped, which is really a type I suppose) and then those categories should be mapped to whatever X Power types end up being defined. A lot of this should already be defined for purposes of breaking DR. This would answer all of the questions like "will sneak attack damage scale with Melee Power?" All you would need is a big matrix of damage types and power types to determine what scales with what.

Regarding the changes to Blitz, my preference would actually be to nerf it somehow. I have been running solo with a Cetus build with pretty weak gear and LD is definitely the way to go, entirely due to Blitz. I can run through about everything on EH with zero problems while Blitz is going. Without Blitz, EH is slightly more difficult, but still easily doable. Just ends up taking a bit longer really. Blitz is essentially an epic moment that can run forever and I think that is the main problem. It needs to have a defined end at some point. To take a couple of suggestions from earlier in the thread, charging off of hits (or something other than tactical feats) and starting at 10 stacks that degrade 1 stack every 15 seconds seems somewhat reasonable -- although even that may last too long. Cooldown could be used to balance it with some of the other epic moments as well.

Regarding leveling and fixed Melee Power increases, the only thing this will do is devalue LD when compared to the other EDs. It will increase the number of people running the other EDs, but will also make every difficulty except for EE pretty trivial. I think the power creep alone from this idea makes it a bit of a non-starter. Nerfing Blitz will have the same effect by devaluing LD and getting people into other EDs without the power creep.

I agree with the comments that the epic levels seem lackluster, but adding fixed melee power bumps won't help that. It is a power increase, but it isn't any more exciting really than getting +1 to all skills and saves. The issue is that there aren't really any choices that dramatically effect your character. The epic feats are a good step, but they are really just minor bumps -- +5% DS, some added DR, more spell power, etc... There is no major, game-changing ability that appears. In the heroic levels, there are quite a few of these potential changes/choices -- key feats that you need for a build, class features that open up (evasion, wings, class specific feats), new spell levels, multi-classing levels, and so on. The problem is that all of this is finished by the time you hit level 20. Unfortunately, I can't think of too many simple ways to fix this. You could replace generic epic levels with specific class levels, but it seems like that would be a pretty extensive change. One potential option might be to extend Enhancements into Epic levels. Take the existing Enhancement trees, define levels 6-10 and put various epic/class level requirements on them. Admittedly this sounds a lot like Epic Destinies, but the distinction is that it would be tied to character and/or class level and not ED level and would not be freely granted at level 20. More power creep certainly, but has the potential to be more intelligently applied. Certainly a bunch more work to implement than a flat Melee Power boost however.

[Aelonwy]

The bug here is that you can take SWF and Shield Mastery feats at the same time. While this isn't a big issue right now, it could lead to problems with the DPS boost. Making the two sets of feats exclusive may not be the best solution, but players wouldn't lost much if this change happened during the update.

So what is the issue with making it so bucklers do not gain melee power from shield feats? If that can be done than Swashbuckler skirmishers would neither loose nor gain anything from the melee dps boost to shield feats. Am I missing something here? Orbs benefit from shield feats right? Are orbs gaining melee power? If not than it should be possible for bucklers to not receive the melee power benefit.

[Chai]

The bug here is that you can take SWF and Shield Mastery feats at the same time. While this isn't a big issue right now, it could lead to problems with the DPS boost. Making the two sets of feats exclusive may not be the best solution, but players wouldn't lost much if this change happened during the update.

That is not a bug.

Shield mastery is not a fighting style.

We have always been able to take THF and shield mastery and use a Dax or Bsword and benefit from those too. Are those folks also getting hosed by this? Wasnt that the entire reason to make THF work with those weapons to give tanks a DPS boost?

Builds that use both would lose doublestrike and PRR with this change.

[Systern]

I'm seeing some arguement as to whether bards should get SWF and shield feats with bucklers.

One of the issues I see here is the fact that a bard WITH both will be better than a bard that goes SWF and empty handed (don't forget the 10% dodge too!) I think the issue is whether that would, especially if the shield feats are improved, make buckler swashbucklers much stronger than empty hand swashbucklers (and maybe runearm ones? Not sure how much they get). Swashbuckler is already pretty powerful, but just take two fighter levels and you've already almost bought the shield feats for free, as well as access to some fighter enhancements if they choose to take them. A pure bard will likely have issues fitting all the feats in. IF buckler bards are just THAT much more powerful than other options, then they may feel forced to do so.

Some people have suggested that the new tank tree (is that still in or did it get scrapped?) should use swf. I feel like it would be better to upgrade the shield feats (or make the bsword/daxe better, though that's a little restrictive, weapon-wise), BUT they could have that so it's tiered like it is now, with bucklers getting less of a bonus than heavy/tower shields. That would help shield builds without unduly upgrading buckler bards.

Glad to see that there's a discussion going on and that the devs are trying to incorporate player opinion into their decisions.

You're not taking into account that Bards ARE feat starved. They only specific auto-granted feats they get are lore feats. They get no select-able class feats like fighters or wizards. They don't even get some "standard" feats without paying for them via enhancements (i.e. Magical Training). If a Bard pays the heavy opportunity cost of using two of their 7 heroic feats (non-human) for 5 PRR and 8% Doublestrike, then that is their build choice, and it should be viable.

Bards get nothing for free. They pay twice as much for everything as other classes, either through additional feat taxes (Extend is nearly mandatory since all their buffs are short duration), skill taxes (mandatory Perform investment for songs), or Enhancement taxes (i.e. Magical Training).

If I choose to min/max my character for extra doublestrike, then that is my build choice.

Swashbuckling Style choices cheapest to most expensive:
Dashing Scoundrel: Passive: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Attack Damage per 5 Character levels and 10% Doublestrike/Doubleshot. Cost: 1 AP
Arcane Marauder: Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Cost: 4AP, 3 forced into Spellsinger Tree - for Magical Training to be able to wield an Orb
Cannoneer: Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Cost: 2 Levels Arti, 1 AP. Loss of Capstone
Skirmisher: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 10% Dodge, and you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats. Cost: 1 AP, 3 (SWF) - 5 feats (+SM)


Technically, you don't need the SWF feats for Swashbuckler, but it's an obvious choice to pick them up.

[FestusHood]

I don't want casters to be buffed. I don't want melees getting a free 90% damage just for leveling. Epic levels should matter in another way. And they should matter to everyone, not just melees and/or ranged. Read again my previous statements.

How about if they remove the increased caster levels from destinies, and instead give caster levels per epic levels. Destiny levels could then give increases to max caster levels of spells instead. This will mess a little bit with spell pen, but they can probably adjust for that.

[Wizza]

How about if they remove the increased caster levels from destinies, and instead give caster levels per epic levels. Destiny levels could then give increases to max caster levels of spells instead. This will mess a little bit with spell pen, but they can probably adjust for that.

But then you are making the Destinies much more useless. I think the best thing would be an Epic AP system to make Epic levels useful. It wouldn't be OP like 90% free damage is right now, but it would have its purpose and could open many possibilities.

[CoasterHops]

Just my thoughts on the swashbuckling and gaining the Melee Power from Shield feats, it's a simple fix, whilst swashbuckling you do not gain any melee power from Shield Mastery Feats, simple, easy and still leaves swashbucklers where they are at present.
Seems to be a lot of discussion going on about this and this seems to be the simplest and easiest fix, it's a pity that the people who opened up this whole can of worms are the same people who are running OP Builds that make use of all the tools available to them, but they don't seem to want others to make use of other future tools for different builds.

Anyways buff TWF already lol!

[Aelonwy]

But then you are making the Destinies much more useless. I think the best thing would be an Epic AP system to make Epic levels useful. It wouldn't be OP like 90% free damage is right now, but it would have its purpose and could open many possibilities.

That's sort of what Epic Destinies are isn't it? I can say I wouldn't mind getting an extra AP per epic level to spend in my current setups. I've wished from the start that we had separate AP for spending in our racial trees.

[FestusHood]

I had an idea a while back about how to reign in blitz.

Leave it's relative power as is while it's active, except you are always at ten stacks equivalent.

Decide whatever is the best way to charge it. NOT the way it's done now. Has to at least involve engaging mobs in some way.

Allow it to be initiated at any point during the charging process.

Charges decay at a static rate once it has begun. When charges reach 0 it expires.

No way to recharge charges while it is active.

This way the longer you waited to activate it, the longer it would last, but it couldn't last foerver.

Keep the 5 minute cooldown to reactivate it.

Buffing everything else up to be essentially half blitzing all the time kind of scares me.

If you only get your information from the forums, you would get the impression that everybody is blitzing all the time. My in game experience is different. Soloing my be an exception.