Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Monkey_Archer]

So, the blitzer at level 28 will gain max power from the last bullet though probably not alot AND have practically all the downsides of blitzing removed?
Thats taking the very strongest ability and making it a good deal stronger - and claiming its done in the name of balance?
Please reconsider.

The proposal to add +150% damage to other EDs at level 28 is similarly off the charts wrong. It does not reflex on the fact that some other EDs are already competitive though slightly below the blitzer and would hence get significantly stronger than current blitzers with such a huge boost - nor that others EDs are not so competitive so it fails to bring even internal balance for melee builds.

The idea to boost other melee EDs is good to spread people out - but the scale is entirely wrong and the effect will be to limit choices severely as non-melee builds and mixed melee/ranged builds will be completely overshadowed by constant and risk free blitzer (or even above blitzer) damage on all melee builds.

Unless the plan is one of utilizing a disproportionate pendulum of power and the time has come for melee to outshine anything else a good deal of tempering is needed here to balance the proposal.

This basically echoes my concerns.

I don't think anybody really believes that blitz needs a buff. I highly doubt that anybody really wants to see divine crusader and fury become twice as powerful as blitz already is on live.

The funny thing, is that these changes still don't address the fact that shadowdancer, GMOF, fatesinger and unyielding sentinel are still just as weak relative to fury and crusader. The only thing this changes for the weak destinies is their dps in relation to blitz (which nobody is even going to use anymore given the absurd power that divine crusader and fury will be at)

[FlaviusMaximus]

I suggest what they do for that is put a toggle on the Skirmisher enhancement. Toggling it on will enable SWF feats with a Buckler, but disable the benefits of Shield-specific feats.

That would mean that normal Buckler Swashbucklers would have to choose at character planning if they want SWF, or Shield Mastery + Shield Bash.

This is the same as making the feats mutually exclusive and would serve no purpose. Swashbucklers aren't going to want to use the specific shield feats sometimes at the expense of SWF, so the toggle becomes irrelevant.

They need to design around the Swashbuckling/shield feats pairing that is currently possible, because 1) it's not a bug that they work together and saying that it is a bug after all of the discussion about them working together in the Swashbuckler threads is an insult to our intelligence and 2) It's on the newly proposed system to work with what is already in place, not the other way around.

You don't cut and alter all the pieces around the hole in the puzzle to make the piece in your hand fit. You grab a different piece.

[Scrabbler]

This is the same as making the feats mutually exclusive and would serve no purpose.

Pretty much the same, but a little more convenient in terms of respeccing and stuff.

They need to design around the Swashbuckling/shield feats pairing that is currently possible, because 1) it's not a bug that they work together and saying that it is a bug after all of the discussion about them working together

Right, it's not a bug; it's a design choice.

And that's a choice that they can change, and probably already have decided to.

2) It's on the newly proposed system to work with what is already in place, not the other way around.

Swashbuckler Skirmisher is barely a month old; it doesn't really count as any kind of precedent or tradition that needs to be defended. If they decide some of the Swashbuckler enhancements were mistakes, now is the time to go edit them.

As a general thing, it is a lot easier to get the design right if combat style feats benefits are all exclusive with another. That goes for Swashbuckler, Wolf, and Bastard. (Whether the exclusion is because of antirequisites or toggles that turn each other off is less important)

[Monkey_Archer]

They need to design around the Swashbuckling/shield feats pairing that is currently possible, because 1) it's not a bug that they work together and saying that it is a bug after all of the discussion about them working together in the Swashbuckler threads is an insult to our intelligence and 2) It's on the newly proposed system to work with what is already in place, not the other way around.

The thing you seem to be omitting is that the shield mastery feats are getting buffed with an extra +20 melee power. Are you claiming that SWF by itself is too weak and needs these buffs? If SWF is that weak that it needs the shield mastery feats as well, what does that say about actual S&B characters that don't even get the SWF bonuses? You seem to be treating the S&B feats as trivial extras instead of a fully independent combat style, that deserves to stand on its own.

[gwonbush]

The thing you seem to be omitting is that the shield mastery feats are getting buffed with an extra +20 melee power. Are you claiming that SWF by itself is too weak and needs these buffs? If SWF is that weak that it needs the shield mastery feats as well, what does that say about actual S&B characters that don't even get the SWF bonuses? You seem to be treating the S&B feats as trivial extras instead of a fully independent combat style, that deserves to stand on its own.

I liked the idea for it only applying to Light Shields, Heavy Shields and Tower Shields. This prevents the Melee Power from working with SWF, but doesn't break any existing builds.

[Monkey_Archer]

As a general thing, it is a lot easier to get the design right if combat style feats benefits are all exclusive with another. That goes for Swashbuckler, Wolf, and Bastard. (Whether the exclusion is because of antirequisites or toggles that turn each other off is less important)

Assuming shieldmastery+SWF and druids get fixed, that leaves S&B+THF for bastard swords and Daxe as the only remaining "double combat style". I'm interested to see how this gets worked around considering how weak bastard sword builds are right now.

[Monkey_Archer]

I liked the idea for it only applying to Light Shields, Heavy Shields and Tower Shields. This prevents the Melee Power from working with SWF, but doesn't break any existing builds.

Even with a band-aid exception like that, it still doesn't make sense for SWF swashbucklers to be the only build in the game (other then bastard swords) that can combine 2 separate combat feat lines.
If SWF is too weak without shield mastery, then buff SWF.
If its swashbucklers that are too weak without shield mastery, then buff swashbucklers.

[FlaviusMaximus]

The thing you seem to be omitting is that the shield mastery feats are getting buffed with an extra +20 melee power. Are you claiming that SWF by itself is too weak and needs these buffs?

No. As I stated in my long post, Swashbucklers should not receive the + melee power being proposed in the shield feats. However, the shield feats should not be taken away from Swashbucklers as they currently are. A two feat, 1 twist investment is no small price for a feat starved class such as Bards for the investment that the feats yield, and a large number of Swashbucklers currently utilize these feats and should not be forced to LR/TR arbitrarily to make the newly proposed system work.

If it is too much work to figure out a way to stifle the + melee power only on the shield feats while Swashbuckling then perhaps two different versions of each shield feat should be made available; one version of the shield mastery feats that works as the feats do currently and one that also contains the + melee power but yields no shield feat benefits while Swashbuckling. Obviously if this approach was taken then each version of the feats would have to be mutually exclusive so as to not allow for double stacking them on S&B characters.

Even with a band-aid exception like that, it still doesn't make sense for SWF swashbucklers to be the only build in the game (other then bastard swords) that can combine 2 separate combat feat lines.

We are past this. Swashbuckling/shield feat mechanics have been public and known for quite some time and are far from imbalancing. Altering SWF to make up for potentially losing those feats is a bit silly when the new system could simply be altered to fit what is in place and established.

[Monkey_Archer]

Obviously if this approach was taken then each version of the feats would have to be mutually exclusive so as to not allow for double stacking them on S&B characters.

I see. So it is obviously a problem if S&B builds get to stack combat style feats, but not for swashbucklers?
I going to have to disagree with the value you place on status quo vs balance.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I see. So it is obviously a problem if S&B builds get to stack combat style feats, but not for swashbucklers?
I going to have to disagree with the value you place on status quo vs balance.

You misread. I suggested having two different versions of each shield mastery feat. In other words there would be two identical Shield Mastery feats, one with + melee power and one without. The idea of not letting a character take both versions would be to not let a character double up on each shield feat so that they didn't end up with things like 40% shield bash from feats only and whatever else.

Further responses will be edited into this post to not spam up the thread with side conversations.

I'm interested to see how this gets worked around considering how weak bastard sword builds are right now.

They have proposed a few changes to address this. They have proposed adding melee power the shield mastery feats and are discussing allowing for glancing blows as well as shield bashes while moving. In total they have come up with three changes so far to address S&B power - without getting into whatever is planned in the new Fighter/Paladin tree.

Swashbuckler Skirmisher is barely a month old; it doesn't really count as any kind of precedent or tradition that needs to be defended. If they decide some of the Swashbuckler enhancements were mistakes, now is the time to go edit them.

The amount of time it is in existence isn't the most relevant factor and it isn't about tradition. It's live, literally everyone has a Swashbuckler right now, and this would screw up a lot of the playing population.

The Swashbuckler shield thing wasn't a mistake. It's only now being presented as a mistake because it would inconvenience a newly proposed idea.

I liked the idea for it only applying to Light Shields, Heavy Shields and Tower Shields. This prevents the Melee Power from working with SWF, but doesn't break any existing builds.

Just saw this. This is a better idea than mine and is a very simple, straightforward way to fix the problem.

Those changes do help S&B builds in general, but the glancing blow mechanics were added specifically to make bastard swords and Daxes on par with khopesh. Simply removing glancing blows from bastard swords becuase of those buffs would only turn people back to khopesh instead.

I'm not sure where the idea of removing glancing blows from bastard swords and dwarven axes is coming from. I didn't suggest it and they didn't suggest it as far as I can tell. However, I do see that I misread the THF feats proposal and missed the fact that the + melee power will not be affecting the one handed weapons with glancing blows, so I will remove that from my list of things they are suggesting to buff S&B.

[Scrabbler]

I'm interested to see how this gets worked around considering how weak bastard sword builds are right now.

Me, I'd give Bastard swords an extra Melee Power bonus as a trait of that weapon type, and take away the THF glancing abilities.

[Monkey_Archer]

They have proposed a few changes to address this. They have proposed adding melee power to both the THF feats and the shield mastery feats and are discussing allowing for glancing blows as well as shield bashes while moving. In total they have come up with four changes so far to address this - without getting into whatever is planned in the new Fighter/Paladin tree.

Those changes do help S&B builds in general, but the glancing blow mechanics were added specifically to make bastard swords and Daxes on par with khopesh. Simply removing glancing blows from bastard swords becuase of those buffs would only turn people back to khopesh instead. Placing the glancing blow bonuses into vanguard and removing them from THF would be an option, but I'd imagine there are certain builds that would be upset over that as well.

Me, I'd give Bastard swords an extra Melee Power bonus as a trait of that weapon type, and take away the THF glancing abilities.

I like this idea, but I think just doing more damage is somewhat boring compared to glancing blows. Perhaps a compromise... keep the base glancing blows, remove the benefit of the THF feats and add a smaller melee power bonus? 5-10 maybe...

[Eth]

While your analysis on the problems of MB are all correct, I see this as a huge problem:

~ When activated the ability builds as you hit enemies. You do not have to be the character who lands the killing blow. The rate that you build charges will be tweaked so it will build up at a decent rate.

What does that mean?
I can just stand there, hit a raid boss forever and keep my blitz charged at full stacks?
This would lead to raid parties consisting of 12 blitzers.

While the killing blow mechanic was not good, this is even worse.

IMO it was never good that blitz could be simply kept active as long as you wanted (if the quest allowed so). It should become a time limited thing.

[Munkenmo]

Even with a band-aid exception like that, it still doesn't make sense for SWF swashbucklers to be the only build in the game (other then bastard swords) that can combine 2 separate combat feat lines.
If SWF is too weak without shield mastery, then buff SWF.
If its swashbucklers that are too weak without shield mastery, then buff swashbucklers.

Even if 2wf / swf no longer work in animal forms, on paper Natural fighting and Shield mastery would still work. So add another combination to your list.

As for shield mastery and melee power, Shield mastery feats shouldn't add a flat melee power value. Currently there are different bonuses for different shields, I see no reason why the status quo can't remain.

Tower shield = big melee power bonus
Buckler = small melee power bonus

[Systern]

Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect.


Sev~

Wait, what? Why can't my swashbuckling bard not be able to take the shield feats? Why is this a bug? You're already planning on stripping all defensive benefit from bucklers, now you're planning on taking the offensive capabilities paid for with 2 feats on a starved class away too?


NO! NO CHANGARINO! PLZ!

[Monkey_Archer]

I see no reason why the status quo can't remain.

Because the status quo is unbalanced and is in opposition to the plan of making S&B a stand alone combat style.

Let me put it this way. If SWF builds should be allowed to take shield mastery, why cant shield mastery builds take SWF? Its literally the same thing. (and no, towershields do not offer more defense then swashbuckling...)

[Wizza]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand. Maybe I'm missing something. You want to add it into the EDs instead? So, my main gets 90 MP just by being 20th level instead of just by being 28th level? And every ETR he does, he loses nothing? Making my epic levels as meaningless as before?

That's OK if that's what you mean, I just want to get it straight.

Not even that. I suggested to get 100 of those MP in the Destinies, then either stop at the number 100, which is already a lot and I'm fine with all of it being in a destiny, or give 60 in a destiny and the others either in the enhancements, or in the gear, or in a feat or just don't. 60 Melee Power is a huge boost already anyway.

I think what Sev is trying to do is give more meaning to the epic levels (I understand that epic feats now give some meaning), so that, without EDs, a level 28 is more powerful than a level 20 character. Why do you not like this idea?

Because that means only a level 28 melee character is stronger than a level 20. I don't like THIS, I like the idea of making Epic levels relevant for everyone (everyone is the key word here). I mentioned this 200 times already but yet noone gets it.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Because that means only a level 28 melee character is stronger than a level 20. I don't like THIS, I like the idea of making Epic levels relevant for everyone (everyone is the key word here). I mentioned this 200 times already but yet noone gets it.

I don't think it's a complicated argument to get. I think you are confusing "getting" the argument with agreeing with it. Just because people aren't agreeing with it doesn't mean that people aren't getting it.

I agree that epic levels should be more relevant for everyone, but ranged power is not going to be discussed or introduced yet as far as I can tell. Rather than waiting until all damage dealing options can all hit the ground running at the same time, why not give melees something else to level for in the meantime? It's progress, and it shouldn't be held up just because a couple other fighting styles will have to wait a couple weeks to receive the same benefits.

You make the epic levels somewhat more meaningful for melees now, you make them more meaningful for ranged builds later, and you address making them more meaningful for spell casters after that. One step at a time. It's not the worst thing in the world considering that you are still moving forward.

Absolute worst case scenario; melees are the only ones that end up receiving such a benefit. Well, that's fine too. Melees need a boost and the gaining of epic levels should at least be more relevant for some builds. Even if ranged power is never addressed this would be a good change.

Now, if you would like to state again that you don't like tying melee power to epic levels instead of destinies, let me preempt that by saying "we get it."

No, they keep saying "I don't understand". That means not getting it. If you disagree, then you don't start the sentence with "I don't get it, what are you trying to say?".

Oh, I see. You are taking it literally. I am taking "I don't understand" to mean either "I don't get your reasoning, please explain it so I can refute it" or "Your proposal doesn't make sense and now let me tell you why. 'I don't understand' how this can be a serious idea."

[Wizza]

I don't think it's a complicated argument to get. I think you are confusing "getting" the argument with agreeing with it. Just because people aren't agreeing with it doesn't mean that people aren't getting it.

I agree that epic levels should be relevant for everyone, but ranged power is not going to be discussed or introduced yet as far as I can tell. Rather than waiting until all damage dealing options can all hit the ground running at the same time, why not give melees something else to level for in the meantime? It's progress, and it shouldn't be held up just because a couple other fighting styles will have to wait a couple weeks to receive the same benefits.

You make the epic levels somewhat more meaningful for melees now, you make them more meaningful for ranged builds later, and you address making them more meaningful for spell casters after that. One step at a time. It's not the worst thing in the world considering that you are still moving forward.

No, they keep saying "I don't understand". That means not getting it. If you disagree, then you don't start the sentence with "I don't get it, what are you trying to say?".

And for your suggestion, you want them to implement something and then refine it later? You mean yet another unfinished system like the many we have? No thanks. I already dislike the fact that they are implementing MP now and RP later on. We all know how Turbine works with the "we are going to finish that system later in the year" policy.

We have no idea how long Severlin is staying btw (I hope it's a long time). With all these Developers come and going, I'd rather one Developer make the system and finish it in the same update.

[Nascoe]

So something I am having a hard time understanding is how exactly ranged is being nerfed. Are all you ranged guys saying that by melee getting a buff somehow your damage is going down now that no ranged power is to be added to certain destinies? Clearly that is an absurd line of thought. You will still benefit from the other abilities you actually used before the exact same amount. Or are you arguing that you are loosing damage from blitz being changed to melee power? This is also a silly concept since ranged should have never been able to activate blitz to begin with. It may not have been far fetched to think ok blitz could be applied to ranged except how can you charge blitz without "successful tactical melee strikes"? One answer: bug exploitation.

Basically put, your reasons for playing a ranged character should not be "its better than melee" but "ranged is more fun for me and it isnt bad" . I do agree that ranged needs some additional options other than shiradi, but that could be said for melee and casters as well. Most of the eds just are not as well designed as others and that is a fact. I feel like some additional balance can be added to these via mp or rp and make them more appealing for every type of player.

Also being skeptical of a new system is fine, but outright flaming it before anything has even been tested outside of developers is just silly. The devs are not going to listen to flame posts about number balancing before any of you have even had a chance to try it out...

When you say you don't understand what Ranged users are complaining about, it seems you have misunderstood some of what is changing or chose to ignore that. Currently many ranged builds run in LD to blitz too, because it works with ranged and gives them best DPS just like it gives melee DPS. If this changes takes the bonus to damage done and instead gives a bonus to Melee Power, that means that instead of getting up to 250% like you get now, you suddenly drop to none in this destiny. The same goes for other desitinies and bonusses to damage that are currently wider than they will become, for example if Fury gets changed too to only give melee power and DC gets changed to give melee power instead of a DPS boost for any physical damage (or even to all damage).

And on top, Shiradi, which would be the "ranged" destiny does not give ANY melee power, meaning that you are really stuck in ranged / spellcaster for Shiradi and more or less forced to use melee in a the "melee" destinies because they do not offer much to boost your DPS anymore, a change for the worse from what is on live now.

I really do not think the change is all that practical or the best way to do it. And that is apart from melee getting a pretty huge boost overall, which will make for even more complaints that content is trivial from the more well equipped and build up (with past lives etc.) characters. Really shouldn't the target be to be fine in Hard with a decent build, a working group and some thinking involved, and leave EE a challenge or at least not a zerg through for the top characters?