Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Contrex]

So my Magister rogue and Draconic bard are going to be severely behind the curve thanks to this concept. I don't feel these particular melee characters are benefiting at all.

[jalont]

So my Magister rogue and Draconic bard are going to be severely behind the curve thanks to this concept. I don't feel these particular melee characters are benefiting at all.

They'll be less behind the curve than they currently are. Your dps is far behind optimal melee DPS. You'll be gaining DPS with these changes through the MP given in each epic level, while the current optimal DPS toons will be gaining nothing. Whether or not a new optimal build comes out of this has yet to be seen. But right now, no, you'll be better off.

[Desonde]

Either SWF is over powered, or you weren't thinking about the ambiguity of what you were doing when you created it.

Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect.

This statement says that using SWF and bucklers are a bug, than why do swashbucklers have the explicit option to do exactly this?

This is the main reason why I don't think melee/ranged power should be implemented, you are essentially saying that melee players are doing 150% less damage than they need to combat the inflated monster health. So rather than fix the mathematical curve causing the issue you are introducing a new algorithm to run beside it and hope that future development teams don't forget why this was implemented, abuse it, and put us back into the same place?

Stat damage was first (now about a 1/3rd of the game is effectively immune to it, and epic destinies give stat damaging abilities that don't work on epic content?), auto crit on helpless, and life stealing (which caused the auto crit nerf, was introduced in the planning of cannith crafting and demonstrated as being a bad idea and removed, only to be finally placed on loot gen items resulting in the entire effect needed to be nerfed).

With this track record, you are introducing another exponential factor into the game. Let's take the following into consideration;
Thunder-Forged Heavy Pick,
GSWF,
Keen Edge,
Grandmaster of Forms Earth Stance,
Overwhelming Critical,
Exalted Smite.

That is 7d6[4.5+1.5dance of flowers+1improved power attack]+12 enhancement + 11 deadly + 5 power attack + 4 Kensai + 4 Dwarf + 60 Str([70-10]/2*2) + 40 Char([50-10]/2*2)=160.5 average before multipliers.
160.5*(1+0.9[Epic levels]+0.6[ED Core]+0.1[Knight T4 ability])=417.3 before crits.
417.3*4=1669.2 regularly, 2503.8 on a 19-20 or exalted smite, or 3338.4 on a 19-20 exalted smite.

Then factor in ED's, LD is 160.5*(2.6+1[blitz])=577.8*4=2311.2; Exalted Smited=3466.8, 19-20 = 4044.6, Both = 5200.2

Or,

FotW is either 417.3*4=1669.2*4=6676.8 regularly, 2503.8*4=10015.2 on a 19-20 or exalted smite, or 3338.4*4=13353.6 on a 19-20 exalted smite.
or if Adrenaline in changed to melee power [removing it's ability to work with ranged weapons] 160.5*(2.6+4) = 1059.3*4=4237.2, 6355.8 19-20 or Exalted Smite, and 8474.4 with both.

Plus you leave the door open for new enhancements and items to boost the base damage before multipliers, these numbers already should be ludicrous and this solution doesn't bring the top .1% damage builds down to a softer curve (they will still be over 4x above the average of 100-175 under the new system [40-70 under the current]).

Rather than create something that will be misinterpreted in 12 months, adjust the skills that are doing too much damage, and reduce mob hp by 60% rather than increase player damage by 1.5x.

[Nightmanis]

I'm not sure what kind of blitzers you run with, but it seems like you just ran with people that had an attitude less conducive to grouping. When I blitz, I follow this philosophy: If I can't keep up my own blitz, its my problem. Everyone else should play exactly the way they would if there is or is not a blitzer in group.

The blitz ability mechanic isn't bad, it seems that people choose to use it in a way that irks others. The blame here is on the person, not on the mechanic because the blitzers I run with don't impose their wishes upon any other party member.

100% this. I never would tell people when I'd start blitzing. Just grab a mob of enemies and start cleaving, fire it up. If I have one after that, I roll with it. If not then I charge up another.

I ran a quest with one of the cetus style builds, and one of the pre Nerf quiver monks. He couldn't get it started because none of us really cared to hinder our fun for his e-peen. Quiver stun stun quiver etc. If he can't have fun in this game without the need to be the most ultimate possible build with the highest possible kill count, that's not my problem.

[Mryal]

Just change blitz to function like Divine Crusader Zeal. Start from the top and slowly decrease in power. No charging needed... Yea I know this is homogenized thinking.

I really really hate grouping with LD blitzers. Ruins every aspect of group orientation.

Gotta admit, the most fun I've ever had in epics was prior to MoTU max level 20 running The Tide Turns...CC was required and so was a healer. Best end game Epic content I've ever seen. Also deadly traps...yes you died from this without a trapper unlike now..."EVADE EVADE EVADE, you take 20 damage...".

Now its all invis/Blitz through every EE content holding down the button and yelling at each other to stop killing my creatures so I can continue to be only one to have fun and see big numbers. It's ********. That's why I call it "Legendary Tardnought."

Yes blitz is anti fun for everyone except who is doing it (maybe).

Old epics...old times.I miss those.We ran stuff just cause we wanted to, to find that epic item, to get epic tokens.We had to pleasure to run epics because they were, epics.

100% this. I never would tell people when I'd start blitzing. Just grab a mob of enemies and start cleaving, fire it up. If I have one after that, I roll with it. If not then I charge up another.

I ran a quest with one of the cetus style builds, and one of the pre Nerf quiver monks. He couldn't get it started because none of us really cared to hinder our fun for his e-peen. Quiver stun stun quiver etc. If he can't have fun in this game without the need to be the most ultimate possible build with the highest possible kill count, that's not my problem.

Hey night, good to see you here.
Well.Sadly thats not what everyone does.Besides, theres this new thunder peaks raid where there is a 'designated blitzer'.And all of that is besides the point, we never had any obligation to care about who or what gets a kill before blitz.It was better that way :P

[mrunlimited]

So something I am having a hard time understanding is how exactly ranged is being nerfed. Are all you ranged guys saying that by melee getting a buff somehow your damage is going down now that no ranged power is to be added to certain destinies? Clearly that is an absurd line of thought. You will still benefit from the other abilities you actually used before the exact same amount. Or are you arguing that you are loosing damage from blitz being changed to melee power? This is also a silly concept since ranged should have never been able to activate blitz to begin with. It may not have been far fetched to think ok blitz could be applied to ranged except how can you charge blitz without "successful tactical melee strikes"? One answer: bug exploitation.

Basically put, your reasons for playing a ranged character should not be "its better than melee" but "ranged is more fun for me and it isnt bad" . I do agree that ranged needs some additional options other than shiradi, but that could be said for melee and casters as well. Most of the eds just are not as well designed as others and that is a fact. I feel like some additional balance can be added to these via mp or rp and make them more appealing for every type of player.

Also being skeptical of a new system is fine, but outright flaming it before anything has even been tested outside of developers is just silly. The devs are not going to listen to flame posts about number balancing before any of you have even had a chance to try it out...

[jalont]

This is the main reason why I don't think melee/ranged power should be implemented, you are essentially saying that melee players are doing 150% less damage than they need to combat the inflated monster health. So rather than fix the mathematical curve causing the issue you are introducing a new algorithm to run beside it and hope that future development teams don't forget why this was implemented, abuse it, and put us back into the same place?

I don't think these changes have anything to do with EE mob stats. I think it's quite clear that they correctly see that Blitz is out of balance, and instead of doing the proper thing and nerfing it, they're buffing everything else. They HAVE to do something to correct balance issues in different builds. Doing things to mobs won't correct any comparative build issues. And honestly, content needs to be more difficult, not less. It'll be hard to increase the difficulty of content while fixing the mathematical curve issue, which is just code for decrease mob hp and damage.

[Thrudh]

The idea behind the melee power change is decent - but the numbers are off the charts.

A (melee) blitzer running 10 stacks is the dominant force in almost every quest (and in some raids). This is somewhat tempered by the risks and annoyances of running Blitz. The 50 stack build up is an annoyance - the risk of never getting the Blitz going once activated - the inability to afk a few mins without losing stacks - the inability to keep stacks when killing off a huge boss without adds etc, etc.

Now, with the change you propose someone in LD will have zero downsides - the blitz will start at 60% value and easily go up from there with no risk of dropping below 60%! So, you have taken the possibly strongest ability in the game and made it much easier to use including making it possible to use in places where it wasnt before and with a much faster setup. To me that very much defines a bad idea. You simply cannot remove the minusses to LD blizting while keeping all the positives - thats not reasonable. If you want to remove the minusses - and I understand your reasons though I dont agree with them - then you need to curb the max power rather significantly as well.

This is a good post... I really like the ideas the devs have.... but I think giving every melee 60% blitz all the time is a pretty big change. Maybe the equivalent of 30% blitz all the time for all melee, and then either nerf blitz to 60% of what it is today, or change blitz itself to 120% of what is currently is but give it a timer, and a cooldown, so it's not an always on epic moment.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Is it me or is twf going to end up the gimpy/flavor way to melee?

[Seikojin]

This is a good post... I really like the ideas the devs have.... but I think giving every melee 60% blitz all the time is a pretty big change. Maybe the equivalent of 30% blitz all the time for all melee, and then either nerf blitz to 60% of what it is today, or change blitz itself to 120% of what is currently is but give it a timer, and a cooldown, so it's not an always on epic moment.

This is if blitz just is a toggle on. However it is not. It is an epic moment. So the new blitz will have a toggle for what kind of defense you want it to provide, but it will still be an epic moment. So I would not jump all over the OP wagon until the details are spelled out more clearly. Dev diary is not a flushed out feature spec.

We need Lama up with these changes asap. So please bring them up. Sweeping changes like this coming a month early is what allowed one time changes to occur.

[Chai]

The power should be in the levels and the abilities should be in the destinies. This way leveling through archmage on a fighter doesnt seem like a slogfest compared to being in LD.

[jalont]

The power should be in the levels and the abilities should be in the destinies. This way leveling through archmage on a fighter doesnt seem like a slogfest compared to being in LD.

I agree, if we must do this, this is the proper way. If we have to suffer a further trivialization of content at least make it so it's fun for some of us. The trivialization will make the game less fun for me, but putting it in epic levels will make running in off destinies more fun, so that's something. I guess.

[Vengeance777]

My response was specifically to your concern that players could gain the benefit of both SWF and the Shield feats. None of those will make the Shield feats work.

Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect.



Good feedback, but I think we want to see how the additional Melee Power and the ability to use Glancing Blows while moving work before talking about nerfing SWF, especially since it was just released.

Sev~

What does this mean for the Skirmisher ability in Swashbuckler (the ability that lets you wield a buckler with SWF)? Will skirmishers still be able to get the PRR boost/Doublestrike from Shield Mastery, Improved Shield mastery, and Legendary Shield Mastery or are they totally blocked off now?

The PRR Loss will hurt a lot more than the doublestrike.

[Thrudh]

They should be fair.

You wanna give melees 90% free damage and casters 10 Spell power? No. This is why this whole thing is pointless. Either they come up with something that is fair for every class and thus making Epic levels relevant in a fair amount for everyone or they don't. There is no middle ground here. There is no "we will give free 90% damage to someone and 1% damage to someone else".

But casters already do more damage than melee... So giving 90% free damage to melee (not that I agree with that) and nothing to casters may be what makes it fair.

[Thrudh]

Melee's have to be in melee range, casters do not. There are trade offs to each build other than just raw damage. I play 13 alts, a pure cleric is my main, than a pure ranger AA, a pure wiz, a pure bard that is not yet converted to the NEW BARD stuff, than a slew of multimutts. Melees need a buff, casters not so much. That is why the numbers do not need to be even to be fair. Now what do the numbers need to be, to be fair? That's a different question. If you think casters need a numerically equal buff to melee you are not being honest with yourself.

This. I can't believe anyone would say - Casters and melees should be adjusted by the exact same amount to be "fair".

[Rull]

Wow, when I look at the replies here, it seems like I was the only one actually enjoying running with a blitzer. I'd adrenaline and prep mobs down to 5% hp and leave them helpless for the blitzer to pick up, when I could.
When soloing i often blitz myself, but when in a group for EE i try to get the ratio of blitzers right.

I ran with a guy the other day who dropped group because we weren't letting him get the kills. We weren't doing anything different than you would running a quest with 5 other players, but every 2 minutes he typed in chat " IM BLITZING HERE!"

You may be different than other Blitzers, but that's the kind of attitude I see in most groups that has a Blitzer.

"We weren't doing anything different"... that's the main problem. If you don't adept to the team you are working with and use their strengths and cover their weaknesses you are the exact opposite of a team player.

I hope never to be in challenging content with someone who thinks like you.
Or with a blitzer who loses his blitz because he didn't announce it, possibly failing the quest by making the party have lower dps than it could have. Just because his pride requires him to be able to keep his own blitz up. talk about e-peen...

[Desonde]

I don't think these changes have anything to do with EE mob stats. I think it's quite clear that they correctly see that Blitz is out of balance, and instead of doing the proper thing and nerfing it, they're buffing everything else. They HAVE to do something to correct balance issues in different builds. Doing things to mobs won't correct any comparative build issues. And honestly, content needs to be more difficult, not less. It'll be hard to increase the difficulty of content while fixing the mathematical curve issue, which is just code for decrease mob hp and damage.

I agree that content needs to be more difficult, but inflating stats is not the way to do this.

Since the stats have gotten so inflated the game has turned into being able to self heal, not get hit, be able to get past all irrelevant fights, and deal the most amount of consistent damage with an ability to burst against things that have to be dropped quickly.

Capping player damage at 100dmg, health at 1000hp, giving all monsters 1,000,000hp and dealing 400-600dmg won't make the game any harder, it will only make it take longer to complete.

They have to make things more challenging to make it more difficult (Having mobs spawn with different types of characteristics like some immune to death magic, some that have high prr, some that do damage, some that take damage. Since when you give everyone everything, it makes all mob encounters either Melee, Ranged, or Magic). It then allows them to increase the amount of resistances based on difficulty level promoting group play.

[Thrudh]

Yes, a thousand times yes.That would make everything more simple, we wouldnt need to have this discussion.We'd only have to amuse ourselves with the lament of people after they realize that their build/playstyle sucked, and it was master blitz carrying em all the time trought every quest.

Instead we are passing on power creep to everyone and pointing out that non melee should get that power creep too because honestly in this case, it makes sense.Then in the end everything becomes a lot easier and we're back to pointing out how the game became easier and how it was better before epic lvls.Wich then leads into harder quests, and we're back here asking for power creep again.What a vicious cycle.

Blitz is a design failure, always has been, when the original Ed design team made it we all know they didnt have in mind that people would spam tactical feats 50 times before starting the quest then have the whole party leave kills for em so they keep the epic moment going for the whole quest, while all, repeating ALL other EDs have epic moments that last at most a minute.None of those changes will change it even, blitz will still keep going for a whole quest, while all other epic moments still last a minute or less.Seriously, when one thing is wrong, you fix that thing ,you dont fix all other things so they are wrong aswell.

I still like the new ideas and I think they have promise (certainly a lot better than doing nothing), but what you say makes a lot of sense. Blitz is too powerful because it is "always on". Other epic moments have timers and cooldowns.

I still like the idea of melee power and buffing all melee in general, although maybe not so much... I especially like how buffing makes other EDs relevant.

I think Blitz could remain in such an environment but with a timer, and long cooldown.

[Ladislaio]

That's because of the insane amount of power you have put into ED's. Also, since anyone can group with anyone in Epics, your level is largely irrelevant except for equipment and Bravery Bonus first time. You don't need to make builds OP with a new system for Melee power to fix that. You need to stratify the levels more clearly, make the scaling in the content more stark, like heroics. at 20/1Epic I can do any epic quest in the game, even on EE. But at Heroic 8 I'm not going to be able to handle level 15 or 16 quests. That's the difference between Epic and Heroic leveling.

I kinda like being able to group with anybody in epics, I think it helps build community. My least favorite thing about heroic lives is that the large difference in levels AND the fact people don't run quests until a particular level restricts the people I may run with. Keeping TR groups close together is a pain, I like that for ETR's you don't have to do that.

This isn't entirely true. Just because people don't build and make them doesn't mean the people who do build and make them can't make them competitive. I urge you to look at some of the better stick builds, and CThrutoEgo's Santa's Little Slayer dex based TWF elf.

My throwers are Dex based, and they easily rival any bow based character, Monkcher or otherwise, toe to toe for DPS. I regularly outkill (all difficulties, all quests) blitzing Swashbucklers, THF characters, Monks, you name it.

Some of your blanket statements sound like maybe you are not terribly familiar with end game and builds in DDO. Would you like to run some quests on Khyber with some end game players/builders sometime soon to see if maybe there are some things you might want to consider before making these sweeping drastic changes?

Sev is of *course* welcome to Party with the Poppy, and even to take a BrattyTop flight (although those are likely too late in the day for him). I don't think I know anybody in the Khyber endgame running a capped dex melee build anymore tho.

[IBCrabin]

75 melee power is a much better number to start than 150 total melee power from level up and innate ability.

A decked out non flavor of the month (fotm) build average base damage is 80 with 1h weapon. A fotm average base damage is 100 with 1h weapon.

If you add 75 melee power
80 base is 140 per swing
100 base is 175 per swing

150 melee power
80 base is 200 per swing
100 base is 250 per swing

On live
A current Blitzer average base damage at 80 1h weapon with 8 stacks of blitz (200%) is already a joke in the EE content when they hit at 240 base damage per swing.


What Blitz need is a nerf in melee power to 200%. Then Increase the duration per stacks and lower the stack count.

This will make blitz less tedious to keep up in situation where there are few mobs and in raids with much higher hp mobs.

Suggestion

75% from level up and innate
125% from blitz.
-----
200% total with blitz

Not to mention, the proposed change will not scale properly with epic normal and epic hard difficulty where mobs hp and saves are much lower. The mobs damage output is also a lot less too, so there is no need to kill them as fast as running in EE.