Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Nightmanis]

Hey night, good to see you here.
Well.Sadly thats not what everyone does.Besides, theres this new thunder peaks raid where there is a 'designated blitzer'.And all of that is besides the point, we never had any obligation to care about who or what gets a kill before blitz.It was better that way :P

Thank you for having me! Always fun to come around.

In a raid situation it's a bit different. That I can understand, and you've provided the best example showing it. I was referring to general questing, in quests like the high roads. Yes a blitz build works fine, but I don't care most days to join a group just to be carried by someone who may or may not have a superiority complex.

[Monkey_Archer]

At the moment I'm playing a CON based dwarf melee, and I don't feel like I'm far behind STR based. The only reason STR/DEX based are behind is Divine Might (and I think they are just not as well developed, because it's not the easy way to go to). DEX gets its trade off in reflex save, CON in hp and fort save.

Thats because Con based builds are a lot closer to strength based builds and the trade off (a bit of dps for more hp/fort) is generally worth it. Con based builds can make use of: Defender stances, rage spell, barbarian rage, primal scream, ED Con bonuses, madstone rage, etc... The only significant thing con based builds can't use is Divine Might.
Dex based builds get none of that. No extra hp, no dex buffs, no dex enhancements in any of the good melee destinies, etc...

[Thar]

Strength based melee is already way ahead of Dexterity based melee builds such as Tempest and Assassin, to the point where the best Tempest builds are Strength based. This would only exaggerate that. We'd rather make Dexterity based melee builds more viable.

Sev~

I'd love to see some changes to tempest for dex builds. It just is too light dps compared to a 2h weapon. The tier 5 enhancements aren't too bad for 5 secs (yes they last 6 seconds but i'm slow to attack after a click so probably lose a sec) and the 2 min cooldown kills their effectiveless compared to fighter enhancements. 15 to 30 sec cooldown is more appropriate if they stay as is.

[Wizza]

But casters already do more damage than melee... So giving 90% free damage to melee (not that I agree with that) and nothing to casters may be what makes it fair.

This. I can't believe anyone would say - Casters and melees should be adjusted by the exact same amount to be "fair".

Oh Thrudh, you never disappoint. Let me color my replies to you, maybe black on white doesn't suit you.

No numbers. I don't think this is the right way to go at all. If you want to make Epic levels relevant, make it in way that everyone gets something, not just one kind of class getting 90% free damage. Introduce more Epic feats, introduce epic AP, epic destinies AP, epic spells. Whatever. But not this kind of HUGE power.

Read my previous sentence. And and btw, I think I repeated more than once that I DON'T WANT CASTERS TO BE BUFFED. I AGREE MELEES SHOULD BE BUFFED. But I want them to be buffed by BUFFING THE EPIC DESTINIES THAT SUCKS. But I don't want that melees get 90% free damage just for being level 28.


I don't want casters to be buffed. I don't want melees getting a free 90% damage just for leveling. Epic levels should matter in another way. And they should matter to everyone, not just melees and/or ranged. Read again my previous statements.

I hope it's clear now. Not against buffing melees. Against giving them 90 MP just by being level 28.

[Thar]

Thats because Con based builds are a lot closer to strength based builds and the trade off (a bit of dps for more hp/fort) is generally worth it. Con based builds can make use of: Defender stances, rage spell, barbarian rage, primal scream, ED Con bonuses, madstone rage, etc... The only significant thing con based builds can't use is Divine Might.
Dex based builds get none of that. No extra hp, no dex buffs, no dex enhancements in any of the good melee destinies, etc...

my con based dwarf only feels behind when it comes to... needing 23 str anyway for overwhelming crit (but that could be more con...) and.. tactics are mostly useless as they are all str based.

[Thar]

None of the Single Weapon Fighting feats function with anything in the off hand, except in the case of the Swashbuckler with, well, a buckler.



At the cost of a feat and threat range.



But it loses out on Power Attack bonuses and 20 Melee Power which multiplies Deadly, Enchantment, and straight weapon damage bonuses like Ranger favored enemy and racials.

Now, if you are suggesting that at the highest level of Strength that attribute bonus is perhaps too good then we are probably in agreement. But only because the Cleave feats devalue Glancing Blows.

Once Glancing Blows can be used while moving I think that will help, even with the Cleaves.

Sev~

Did you sleep in the office? wow... up all night replying to us ragers... you get a point for that.

[Delacroix21]

I'm not sure what kind of blitzers you run with, but it seems like you just ran with people that had an attitude less conducive to grouping. When I blitz, I follow this philosophy: If I can't keep up my own blitz, its my problem. Everyone else should play exactly the way they would if there is or is not a blitzer in group.

The blitz ability mechanic isn't bad, it seems that people choose to use it in a way that irks others. The blame here is on the person, not on the mechanic because the blitzers I run with don't impose their wishes upon any other party member.

What no pale masters in your guild? I often run with 2, so I would LOVE to see you keep up your blitz around them.

[BDog77]

I hope it's clear now. Not against buffing melees. Against giving them 90 MP just by being level 28.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand. Maybe I'm missing something. You want to add it into the EDs instead? So, my main gets 90 MP just by being 20th level instead of just by being 28th level? And every ETR he does, he loses nothing? Making my epic levels as meaningless as before?

That's OK if that's what you mean, I just want to get it straight.

I think what Sev is trying to do is give more meaning to the epic levels (I understand that epic feats now give some meaning), so that, without EDs, a level 28 is more powerful than a level 20 character. Why do you not like this idea? I mean, maybe you think a level 28 character already is MUCH more powerful than a level 20 character, but I think what Sev was saying is that currently they have received feedback that this is not, in fact, the case (or at least does not feel that way). I must say, I would tend to agree with that feedback, at least with my main who is HTRing at this point. When he hits epic levels, he can still do quests at level 20 that he could not complete the first time he was at level 20.

I'm willing to be convinced that I'm wrong, but I think that if the Devs asked me personally whether I thought there was much difference between being a level 20 and level 28 character (absent EDs) I would probably say no.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Very good point.

Grouping for EE quests already feels like playing on casual to me. As such, I typically solo everything on intentionally gimped builds to keep my self interested. I really don't want to see this game get easier.

... which would totally contradict your choice of a forum name....

[Monkey_Archer]

... which would totally contradict your choice of a forum name....

Despite my tag, which I have used for over 15 years now... I have never, and likely will never play a moncher.

[Thar]

My response was specifically to your concern that players could gain the benefit of both SWF and the Shield feats. None of those will make the Shield feats work.

Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect.



Good feedback, but I think we want to see how the additional Melee Power and the ability to use Glancing Blows while moving work before talking about nerfing SWF, especially since it was just released.

Sev~

why wouldn't this stay for swashbuckers?

[Exiledtyrant]

How is melee power going to interact with Eldritch Knights capstone Eldritch Blade? Is it just going to stack like boost do?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Despite my tag, which I have used for over 15 years now... I have never, and likely will never play a moncher.

Cool.

[Cetus]

What no pale masters in your guild? I often run with 2, so I would LOVE to see you keep up your blitz around them.

If you really want to challenge me, then bring necro specced sorcs instead.

Wizard casting speed + cooldowns = joke =D

[BananaHat]

Ranged builds will be looked into at some future date, but not for the Armor Up update.

Sev~

Please please please at least add ranged power to epic destinies when you add melee power to the core abilities. Minimum shiradi, but please all the martial sphere and fury too.

Melee have as "their" destiny: Unyielding sentinel, divine crusader, shadowdancer, grandmaster, LD, fury, and apparently primal avatar
Ranged has as "their" destiny: Shiradi, which is much better for casters.

See the mis-match? Ranged, despite everyone complaining about Fury shot monkachers, really has little support destiny-wise where to the aforementioned build, they use a "melee" destiny to actually contribute to a group. Poll ranged builds on how many prefer to use shiradi as a main damage dealing build and see how quickly you get laughed at.

[maddong]

Even if blitz still works with ranged I don't see many people playing any ranged builds if you get 150 melee power from levels and EDs. Since the defense will help melees live in EE it will go back to the old days when you wouldn't waste a slot on someone pew pewing for half the damage of a melee.

[Thayion516]

Let me discuss ranged Master's Blitz with the team. If it's bugged to work with ranged this might not be the time to fix it. We aren't looking to nerf builds. We could, for example, make Master's Blitz increase Ranged Power to match its current functionality.

Sev~

If blitz is nerfed, many builds including mine will have to drop all range abilities because the steep feat investment to get good ranged dis will not be worth the investment. That would be very disappointing as it would force me into a pure melee role and I would loose alot of versatility in my builds. It would reduce my capacity by at lest 30%.

[Scrabbler]

What does this mean for the Skirmisher ability in Swashbuckler (the ability that lets you wield a buckler with SWF)? Will skirmishers still be able to get the PRR boost/Doublestrike from Shield Mastery, Improved Shield mastery, and Legendary Shield Mastery or are they totally blocked off now?

I suggest what they do for that is put a toggle on the Skirmisher enhancement. Toggling it on will enable SWF feats with a Buckler, but disable the benefits of Shield-specific feats.

That would mean that normal Buckler Swashbucklers would have to choose at character planning if they want SWF, or Shield Mastery + Shield Bash.

[Scrabbler]

But only because the Cleave feats devalue Glancing Blows.
Once Glancing Blows can be used while moving I think that will help, even with the Cleaves.

The last time I checked, Glancing Blows had positive synergy with Cleave attacks. Maybe I'm out of date.

Cleave + Ranged: totally incompatible (of course).
Cleave + TWF: low value, a bug suppresses your offhand proc rate for 40-50% less damage.
Cleave + SWF: slightly reduced value, because the Cleave doesn't benefit from your +30% swing speed.
Cleave + S&B: moderately more value, as Doublestrike can proc during Cleave hits.
Cleave + THF: greatly increased value, as each enemy hit by Cleave can proc glance damage on every other nearby enemy (quadratic)

[mikarddo]

A blitzer with 10 stacks is currently without argument a very dominant force in almost every fight. I see noone arguing this.

For blitzers specifically this suggestion will:
- lower the +250% for level 20 to 27 (important for ETRing but not for a max power debate)
- keep the +250% for level 28
- raise the +250% for levels 29 and 30 (this will eventually raise the max power of the blitzer but isnt now so let ignore this for now)
- remove the need to build up 50 stacks before blitzing (partly an annoyance but also a power issue as there isnt always time to build these before the fighting starts)
- change the minimum from +0% to +150% (at level 28).
- change charging stacks from kills to simply hitting mobs (this makes it easier to run multiple blitzers in a group - even 6 blitzers)
- add more damage to effects that are currently not affected by blitz (this raises the max power of the blitzer)

So, the blitzer at level 28 will gain max power from the last bullet though probably not alot AND have practically all the downsides of blitzing removed?
Thats taking the very strongest ability and making it a good deal stronger - and claiming its done in the name of balance?
Please reconsider.

The proposal to add +150% damage to other EDs at level 28 is similarly off the charts wrong. It does not reflex on the fact that some other EDs are already competitive though slightly below the blitzer and would hence get significantly stronger than current blitzers with such a huge boost - nor that others EDs are not so competitive so it fails to bring even internal balance for melee builds.

The idea to boost other melee EDs is good to spread people out - but the scale is entirely wrong and the effect will be to limit choices severely as non-melee builds and mixed melee/ranged builds will be completely overshadowed by constant and risk free blitzer (or even above blitzer) damage on all melee builds.

Unless the plan is one of utilizing a disproportionate pendulum of power and the time has come for melee to outshine anything else a good deal of tempering is needed here to balance the proposal.