Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Chai]

I had an idea a while back about how to reign in blitz.

Leave it's relative power as is while it's active, except you are always at ten stacks equivalent.

Decide whatever is the best way to charge it. NOT the way it's done now. Has to at least involve engaging mobs in some way.

Allow it to be initiated at any point during the charging process.

Charges decay at a static rate once it has begun. When charges reach 0 it expires.

No way to recharge charges while it is active.

This way the longer you waited to activate it, the longer it would last, but it couldn't last foerver.

Keep the 5 minute cooldown to reactivate it.

Buffing everything else up to be essentially half blitzing all the time kind of scares me.

If you only get your information from the forums, you would get the impression that everybody is blitzing all the time. My in game experience is different. Soloing my be an exception.

Most of the melee accomplishment videos, if not all of the melee solo accomplishment videos, are blitz. If there are exceptions, they are very few relatively.

Most of the epic moments were done well, where you get a few rather large damage scores, but then the power decreases back to normal afterward. Blitz was the exception to that and is why it is used most often, especially by soloers.

[FestusHood]

But then you are making the Destinies much more useless. I think the best thing would be an Epic AP system to make Epic levels useful. It wouldn't be OP like 90% free damage is right now, but it would have its purpose and could open many possibilities.

It wouldn't make the destinies useless if you replace the caster level bonus with something else. I suggested max caster levels, but it could be something else, even universal spell power.

[Systern]

I don't want casters to be buffed. I don't want melees getting a free 90% damage just for leveling. Epic levels should matter in another way. And they should matter to everyone, not just melees and/or ranged. Read again my previous statements.

Design Decision: We're comfortable with the current power level of Master's Blitz, and do not want to introduce power creep.
Design Goal: We are dissatisfied with the relative power of everything else compared to Master's Blitz.
Design Goal: We are dissatisfied with the relative power curve of a level 20 vs a level 28 character.

Design proposal: Transfer some of Master's Blitz current power to the levelling curve. This increases relevance of levels, and closes the gap between Blitz and everything else without power creep.

Player concern: Adrenaline in the Fury destiny should change to +Melee Power as well, and be adjusted downwards by the 150 melee power that a Level 28/Maxxed destiny character will recieve.
Other Player concern: Bards OP! They can use bucklers that give piddling AC, no PRR, no MRR, no evasion mitigation, and must be stopped from taking 2 feats and a T2 twist for 20 PRR and 15% doublestrike. (</sarcasm>)

[9001]

There was no perceived problem till they proposed adding melee power to the shield feats. Disallowing melee power to bucklers from shield feats but allowing SWF to take shield feats would still allow bards to gain the defensive benefits that choosing to be a skirmisher buckler-user has so far permitted.

If shield feats are now going to be considered a combat style (rather than situational defensive feats) and all combat styles are going to be mutually exclusive that is going to put a serious crimp in my so far pure fighter dwarf who was using THF feats, and shield feats and a combination of dwarven axes and great axes. When defense is important my dwarf doesn't bother with a buckler she uses a heavy shield/tower shield, so far she has three from the Shield fragment turn-ins.

About the swf/s&b feat problem, as is I DO NOT think there is a problem, but if the shield feats are being upgraded to be a proper line then there could be a problem. Otherwise I see no problem with keeping both (and I would rather it stay that way)

[Aelonwy]

Player concern: Adrenaline in the Fury destiny should change to +Melee Power as well, and be adjusted downwards by the 150 melee power that a Level 28/Maxxed destiny character will recieve.
Other Player concern: Bards OP! They can use bucklers that give piddling AC, no PRR, no MRR, no evasion mitigation, and must be stopped from taking 2 feats and a T2 twist for 20 PRR and 15% doublestrike. (</sarcasm>)

Thank you for putting that in perspective, and with humor too. =)

[lain5246]

i had posed that you could only get 2 fighting styles and i realized i was wrong there is someone out there that would make a fighter with mental toughness to use orb and get shield feats, swf, and twf by using bastard swords or d-axes. but than if the go to that much trouble they deserve the "power" they would get.

[Stoner81]

Strength based melee is already way ahead of Dexterity based melee builds such as Tempest and Assassin, to the point where the best Tempest builds are Strength based. This would only exaggerate that. We'd rather make Dexterity based melee builds more viable.

Sev~

Give us a way to boost DEX like there is in the game for STR! Primal Scream, Ram's Might, Kensai Power Surge, Gloves of Titan's Grip the list goes on but there is nothing at all that does the same for DEX!

Stoner81.

[bbqzor]

We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.

Missed this before, I must also comment that I think this is ridiculous. Obviously druids shouldnt be getting SWF at all, it was explicitily stated as such when the feats came out. That they are able to benefit from that (and TWF, buggy though it is) has been flatly stated as unintentional virtually as long as there has been a druid.

But Swashbuckling bards? They specifically have the tools to make that possible. And, lets be real: as it only works with bucklers, we are talking about sinking 2 feats into gaining 5 PRR and 8% Doublestrike. On a class with zero bonus feats, a high demand for many other feats, and having already spent the 3 feats on SWF itself (otherwise, it wouldnt be the combination of the two), how is that even remotely considered a problem. Let alone one you would spend time "looking into for a unique nerf on that one situation".

Why bother to police an obvious avenue for people to build, which is NOT unintentional, was NOT flagged as undesirable during the dozens and dozens of pages of swashbuckler design, and frankly is NOT overpowering in the slightest. Admittedly its something I wouldnt even ever do, I dont think those returns are worth 2 feats the way I enjoy playing bards and with 3 already sunk into SWF. But there is zero problem with anyone using it as such should they desire to. This is not worth your, admittedly limited, development time. No one is upset over it, and its not an issue... why make it one.

Long story short, preventing SWF from working with druids (along with TWF) is good. Preventing Shield Feats from working with Orbs (and thus, with SWF) okay, I could be sold on that... cant really see many orb guys seriously sinking feats into it *except* to do this kind of unintentional thing. But to take shield feats off swashbuckling? Fail. And I wanted to say that, for the record. I STRONGLY hope you reconsider that portion of your changes.

[lain5246]

Just my thoughts on the swashbuckling and gaining the Melee Power from Shield feats, it's a simple fix, whilst swashbuckling you do not gain any melee power from Shield Mastery Feats, simple, easy and still leaves swashbucklers where they are at present.
Seems to be a lot of discussion going on about this and this seems to be the simplest and easiest fix, it's a pity that the people who opened up this whole can of worms are the same people who are running OP Builds that make use of all the tools available to them, but they don't seem to want others to make use of other future tools for different builds.

Anyways buff TWF already lol!

i am in agreement with this. if i want to have a near perfect build i am most likely using cetus. i have read the builder's post that have been against any other styles being better than what they want. I feel it is wrong, and while i hope thf hets back up to snuff i hope thet the atks on other options stop.

[Scrabbler]

Admittedly its something I wouldnt even ever do, I dont think those returns are worth 2 feats the way I enjoy playing bards and with 3 already sunk into SWF.

What's your feat list for a melee Bard? Have you tried using Shield Mastery and a proper buckler?

But there is zero problem with anyone using it as such should they desire to. This is not worth your, admittedly limited, development time. No one is upset over it, and its not an issue... why make it one.

Some people would like empty-hand Swashbuckler to be a reasonable choice, and they're upset.

[bbqzor]

What's your feat list for a melee Bard? Have you tried using Shield Mastery and a proper buckler?

I prefer more broadness to my builds, and take metas, dc boosters, etc alongside SWF. Dont think its better or worse one way or the other, just saying I have no personal build at stake on it... I just think its foolish to remove it for people who want to use it. Why take away choices for viable builds? I like a swash with some utility/cc backup. Some people like going more all-melee. Theyre both cool in the game!

Some people would like empty-hand Swashbuckler to be a reasonable choice, and they're upset.

Sure, and I get that. I said as much back during the enhancement design, pointing out that the "empty hand" version was too weak, imo. That being said, those who opt to use it arent losing anything shield-feat wise... they still get the same 2 open feats anyone else would. They only thing theyre "behind" against is the same build using a different enhancement and sinking 2 more feats into it.

The totals are something like SWF/Dashing: +4-6 damage (not sure if it counts epic levels or not), 10% doublestrike
vs SWF/Skirmisher/2 shield feats: +10% dodge, 5 PRR, 8% Doublestrike

So it boils down to +5ish damage and 2% doublestrike, vs 10% dodge and 5 PRR, only the second option costs 2 more feats. I think the net of 10 dodge and 5 prr for 2 feats is a fair deal. I also think that NOT spending those 2 feats and getting 5ish dmg and 2% doublestrike is also fair. It doesnt need any adjustment on that front.

The only real issue is not getting any "item stats" in your offhand. And that goes back to what I said here, and in my previous posts back when swash was on the drawing board: at this point in the game, items have too many aggregate stats for giving up an item slot to ever make good sense. Thats probably true almost no matter what they do. It doesnt hinge on the shield feats working or not. Its a fact all on its own, and vaild for the rune arm ones, the orb ones, the shield ones etc.... its not about 2 shield feats working or not working. Its about the devs somewhat undervaluing an item slot, partly because the enhancement is available at level 3-4 and items keep growing all the way to 28, and partly because I think they just undervalued an item slot. But regardless, taking the shield mastery off isnt going to affect that situation.

Having Empty Hand be viable for swashbucklers doesnt hinge on shields working for swashbucklers. Its about how good one item slot is. And thats a function of game itemization. It is what it is. Having SWF work with an empty hand for NON-swashbucklers, thats a bit of a different topic, but certainly one that doesnt involve the buckler enhancement line. Whether swashs can use the feats or not, a non-swash SWF'er is out on shield feats regardless. I dont think they should be removed for swash just so "no one can have any fun". Its not an overpowering addition, and it was clearly intentional during swash design. No reason at all to invest time into things like this, when you still have much bigger fish to fry that are actually causing real problems. My 2 cents, hopefully clear.

[Rull]

The problem is, even allowing to choose between 10 MP, 10 RP, 10 USP and something like 8MP+8USP (16 total!) would still nerf toons that use multiple styles.
And they do not need nerfing.

Say that now some melee toon deals 1000 damage per second.

Another, say a EK or melee/caster druid or hybrid bard deals 600 with melee and 400 with spell damage. (in fact, he'd wish, they don't come close to eithet pure melee or pure caster)

In that new hypothetical system, our melee is going to deal 1100.

our hybrid is dealing either
660+400=1060
or 600+440 = 1040
or 648 + 432 = 1080

(difference between 2500 and 2200 at 28, and that is if the destiny the hybrid uses is as lenient)

Same problem for toons with both melee and ranged option. This is something they put a lot of feats in. Something I think makes ddo awesome (maybe unique) for being actually possible (I never got it to work, but i've seen builds who did)

[Monkey_Archer]

I'm seeing some arguement as to whether bards should get SWF and shield feats with bucklers.

One of the issues I see here is the fact that a bard WITH both will be better than a bard that goes SWF and empty handed (don't forget the 10% dodge too!) I think the issue is whether that would, especially if the shield feats are improved, make buckler swashbucklers much stronger than empty hand swashbucklers (and maybe runearm ones? Not sure how much they get). Swashbuckler is already pretty powerful, but just take two fighter levels and you've already almost bought the shield feats for free, as well as access to some fighter enhancements if they choose to take them. A pure bard will likely have issues fitting all the feats in. IF buckler bards are just THAT much more powerful than other options, then they may feel forced to do so.

Some people have suggested that the new tank tree (is that still in or did it get scrapped?) should use swf. I feel like it would be better to upgrade the shield feats (or make the bsword/daxe better, though that's a little restrictive, weapon-wise), BUT they could have that so it's tiered like it is now, with bucklers getting less of a bonus than heavy/tower shields. That would help shield builds without unduly upgrading buckler bards.

Glad to see that there's a discussion going on and that the devs are trying to incorporate player opinion into their decisions.

This guy gets it.

Swashbuckler with buckler = 15% doublestrike, 20 PRR, 10% dodge, 20% shield bash, all the stats on the buckler you are wearing, (possibly +20 melee power unless an exception is created)
Swashbuckler with emptyhand = 10% double strike, +5 damage

What kind of choice is that?

The way I see it, is that there needs to be a decision on whether S&B is a stand alone combat style, or just additional feats that tack on to another style.
If it is going to be its own fighting style, then it should not work with SWF, even if that means nerfing existing builds (and swashbucklers can still be buffed to compensate)
If its not going to be its own fighting style, then all S&B builds should be able to take a real combat style (SWF) in addition to shield master feats.

[FlaviusMaximus]

If its not going to be its own fighting style, then all S&B builds should be able to take a real combat style (SWF) in addition to shield master feats.

There's a reason why this idea was laughable when discussions of SWF were taking place. If you give tanks SWF with real shields then you have the best melee offense and defense on the same build. There would no longer be a reason to run on anything other than a 2,000 hp DPS/defensive/saves through the roof having (hello, Paladin) monster if you are wanting to swing a weapon.

And no, Swashbucklers being able to use SWF and get shield feats is not the same thing as what you are proposing :/ Not even remotely. The offense is great, the defense is so-so on a Swash and that's even with the +20% hp you can get from being in Stalwart. They aren't in the same ballpark as a SWF Paladin tank would be. Not. At. All.

I understand wanting to give your tank(s?) something that would make them incredibly fun and powerful, but if you can't see how obviously ridiculous this idea is then you need to either 1) play a Swashbuckler for more than an hour or 2) learn the mechanics of the game. Seriously, these posts are really beginning to make me wonder.

[bbqzor]

Swashbuckler with buckler = 15% doublestrike, 20 PRR, 10% dodge, 20% shield bash, all the stats on the buckler you are wearing, (possibly +20 melee power unless an exception is created)

Where are you getting your totals? The Shield feats dont stack, they overlap. Should be 8% DS, 5 PRR, 10% Dodge... not 15/20/10. Are you trying to count the Unyielding Sentinel twist? Because now youre comparing a lot more than just feats working or not... youd have to add twists to the other side too, and thats a giant can of worms revolving around fate points and many, many other variables.

Far as improved shield bash working with buckler, its still subject to the capped animation rates (per the other dev thread, max 60 bash/min if your main attack rate hit 300+ swings per minute, fairly unlikely as swf but still). I could see some good arguements for disabling Improved Shield Bash with swashbuckling/SWF though... that is flat out +attacks, which tends to be pretty important to say the least.

As for the item stats itself.. yes this is the core of the problem. Doesnt rely on shield master feats at all, its that item stats on a game this old have inflated up to where giving up a slot isnt much of a choice. And really... while I think we all would like it to be viable (me included, feel free to check my old swashbuckler posts saying the same thing), at the end of the day since its a selector, if it doesnt quite keep up at end game, so be it. Its no reason to take the alternatives down (regarding shield mastery benefits).

Pointing out the additional attacks off Improved Shield bash is fair though. Thats probably an anomaly that should get removed sooner rather than later, I would think. Fair point. I think the ideal fix here is to just disable it from working on bucklers. Make it light, heavy, tower shields only. Problem solved, and may help with the new shield PrE trees coming as well.

In total though, saying "swash plus 6 feats (3 swf, 2 shield mastery, 1 shield bash) plus a destiny twist is good" is one thing, but trying to act like it should hold up to something else which costs half the feats and no twists isnt really apples to apples. Im not saying empty hand shouldnt be adjusted (far from it, Ive siad it needed a boost basically since it was announced). But lets be real, making the two of them "even" when the costs are anything but is likewise a poor approach.

[Vengeance777]

Just my thoughts on the swashbuckling and gaining the Melee Power from Shield feats, it's a simple fix, whilst swashbuckling you do not gain any melee power from Shield Mastery Feats, simple, easy and still leaves swashbucklers where they are at present.

YES! DO THIS! This is the way to fix it not locking out the Shield mastery line of feats..

Don't remove the ability to take Shield mastery on Bards that take Skirmisher, its a lot of survivability you will be taking away if you do. The AC from a buckler is pitiful the whole reason to use one was the Dodge bonus and the PRR from 2 feats and an Epic Twist. Its extremely costly to get Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery and the entire SWF line on a feat starved pure 20 Bard. Pure bards give up toughnesses, mental toughnesses, and metamagics in most cases to squeeze out the 5PRR from the Shield mastery feats and the 8% doublestrike all to get Legendary Shield Mastery so they can survive the hits they take meleeing in Epic content and hope to kill the mob before it hurts them too much with the extra Doublestrike.

If you make this change to SWF and Shield mastery you need to remove/raise the cap to Dodge to make Skimisher still viable for Dex based builds. Have skimisher also increase the Dodge cap by +10 when wielding a buckler and you'll keep dex based builds able to survive in without the PRR from the shield mastery lines.

[Systern]

What's your feat list for a melee Bard? Have you tried using Shield Mastery and a proper buckler?


Some people would like empty-hand Swashbuckler to be a reasonable choice, and they're upset.

1 - Extend
3 - SWF
6 - Finesse
9 - iSWF
12- IC:P
15- gSWF
18- SM
21- iSM
24- Insp Exc
26- pSWF
27- Epic Reflexes
28- Lasting Inspiration


On a Dex-based Elf taking the 17AP racials for the extra 3% double strike, +5 dmg/hit to rapiers, etc. It invests a lot to get to (permanent) 41% doublestrike at level 21 on this pure Bard. This is the build I'm currently ERing with. I have all 3(!!!) named bucklers in the game: Epic Swashbuckler, Tiller, Barnacled. This build is still fun!
This build gives up Power Attack, Overwhelming critical, Force of Personality, and all the other very reasonable choices for a Bard.

Could an empty-hander use those 2 shield mastery feats for Resilience, Force of Personality, Spell Focus, Mental toughness, or any other reasonable choice and still be viable? Sure. Could a primarily Spell Singer dip into the swashbuckler tree and get use out of it without the intense feat requirement? Sure. Could a Warchanter forego the SWF line and opt for the PA/Cleave/GC/(current implementation of)OCrit line with a rapier and still have an extra feat to spend? Sure!

The proposal is to give SM +10 melee power, and iSM +5 melee power. Is +15 Melee Power too OP since this build gives up OCrit and PA? I don't think so. Remember, sorcs are running around with ~350 Spell Power (Melee Power equivalent). Would you suggest an underpowered caster feat line becomes OP because it gets a buff to to give +15 USP? Is 165 Melee Power so unbelievably more potent than 150 Melee Power?

The 3 named bucklers in the game will give:
Epic Swashbuckler: +8 AC. +4 Insight AC, +4 insight Saves via Parrying VIII
Kobold Admiral's Tiller: +9 AC
Barnacled Buckler: +9 AC. +12 PRR, +12 MRR (via Sheltering +12), +4 insightful AC / +4 saves via riposte.

All of these are lower than an EN Epic Wall of Wood's base +13 shield bonus regardless of the natural Armor on it. And the +10 PRR/MRR it will give from being a Large Shield.
Bucklers really are not that great.

[Monkey_Archer]

There's a reason why this idea was laughable when discussions of SWF were taking place. If you give tanks SWF with real shields then you have the best melee offense and defense on the same build. There would no longer be a reason to run on anything other than a 2,000 hp DPS/defensive/saves through the roof having (hello, Paladin) monster if you are wanting to swing a weapon.

And no, Swashbucklers being able to use SWF and get shield feats is not the same thing as what you are proposing :/ Not even remotely. The offense is great, the defense is so-so on a Swash and that's even with the +20% hp you can get from being in Stalwart. They aren't in the same ballpark as a SWF Paladin tank would be. Not. At. All.

I understand wanting to give your tank(s?) something that would make them incredibly fun and powerful, but if you can't see how obviously ridiculous this idea is then you need to either 1) play a Swashbuckler for more than an hour or 2) learn the mechanics of the game. Seriously, these posts are really beginning to make me wonder.

Before you start insulting my intelligence, you might want to read up on swashbuckler builds. Swashbuckler and defender is not mutually exclusive, and those 2000 hp dps/defensive/saves builds that you call laughable already exist, and will continue to be quite successful with or without the shield mastery feats.

btw my comment was logical sarcasm, its presenting and equally ridiculous situation that is more or less identical to the situation being defended. I would actually question whether a SWF+S&B paladin would even be as strong, let alone stronger then a SWF+S&B swashbuckler/defender with evasion....

[Severlin]

Some follow up:

you are essentially saying that melee players are doing 150% less damage than they need to combat the inflated monster health

Actually we are saying that non-blitz melee is behind ranged and casting builds. Reducing monster health does nothing to balance the relative power of various builds.

I think it's quite clear that they correctly see that Blitz is out of balance, and instead of doing the proper thing and nerfing it, they're buffing everything else.

If we just nerf blitz then melee won't have any option or build to stay competitive with good ranged and casting builds.

75% from level up and innate
125% from blitz.
-----
200% total with blitz

As we test the changes to see how they perform this is a very real option.

is your intention with ranged power to have it apply also to thrown weapons?

Yes.

Sev~

[Monkey_Archer]

If we just nerf blitz then melee won't have any option or build to stay competitive with good ranged and casting builds.

I would consider blitz melee, casters and good ranged builds all to be around the same power level, (in different ways of course) with everything else behind (to very different degrees). If you just nerfed blitz, of course casters and ranged would just take over. But isn't that a separate problem?