Casualization at its peaks. What are your thoughts?

[Catteras]

I agree on the casual side of it, but the incentive is once again watered down. I don't usually agree with the OP, but in this case he does or will have a point. Turbine went from one extreme to another, which is done in typical Turbine fashion. nobody asked for something like 42 heart seeds in end rewards on any difficulty. many just asked for the 4200 to be reduced to something more reasonable.

Nobody asked for this?

Nobody asked for a way to NOT have to take comms for end rewards every single time? Nobody wanted to be able to chose from the various end rewards offered from 20 to 28? Everyone much prefered just taking comms every single time?

I'm going to have disagree there. I think a whole carpload of people disliked being forced to ignore all other end rewards from 20 to 28 and take comms. The introduction of heart seeds gives us the freedom to take any end reward now, because we know that once we hit cap we can get our epic heart of wood after running 20 so quests. I think that there is a whole lot of players who love the freedom this gives back to us.

Yes, we did ask for 4200 to be reduced, but that was more as a compromise. "You gave us this sucky system, please make it less sucky." Turbine (after the sales of ehearts tapered off) went a step farther and made all of our lives easier. And I thank them heartily for that!

[morkahn82]

(sorry for not being clear in opening as it was really late when i started this thread, my posts will slowly show what i initialy thought, best sumerized in post 19)

Whole epic lfm is full with mainly eh/en lfms.
First day and i alrdy dont like it.
Seed change backfired exactly as i thought it would. Might be to soon to make a conclusion. But currently it feels like this and it is going into this direction.
I mean everyone feels the same that now its a matter of efficiency to run lower difficulty.
Was this expected? Yes.
But do we really need to trivialize ddo so much?
Can we get at least some promise that running epic elite content will offer some reward that is actually worth it.

At least the ee/eh/en loot system. Something, anything, as i fear if the next update will have btaoa loot with same stats no matter the difficulty, there will be no real reason for the Epic elite setting.
I know, many will say do it for the challenge, but shouldnt challenge be somehow be rewarded?

Opinions welcome and i encourage people to discuss this, as i am highly interested what community thinks how ddo should be difficulty wise and what you think about current direction ddo is taking.

My opinion:
Personally, i dislike it as i am losing sight of running hardest content on hardest setting.
Any other mmo, has different values and loot system depending on what you run content on.
Higher tier difficulty = better rewards /titles/ladder boards.
Ddo should not be a exception in that regard and should reward higher skilled players with something to make them feel a sense of achievment and progress /for example loot titles/ theras encouraging everyone to get better.

I do not see a problem here, except: do we really need so much p2w in store, so that we have to make EE so hard to please the p2cheat elitists? And further penalize casual players for not being a cheater and not running EE?

No.

[Vellrad]

Nobody asked for this?

Nobody asked for a way to NOT have to take comms for end rewards every single time? Nobody wanted to be able to chose from the various end rewards offered from 20 to 28? Everyone much prefered just taking comms every single time?

I'm going to have disagree there. I think a whole carpload of people disliked being forced to ignore all other end rewards from 20 to 28 and take comms. The introduction of heart seeds gives us the freedom to take any end reward now, because we know that once we hit cap we can get our epic heart of wood after running 20 so quests. I think that there is a whole lot of players who love the freedom this gives back to us.

Yes, we did ask for 4200 to be reduced, but that was more as a compromise. "You gave us this sucky system, please make it less sucky." Turbine (after the sales of ehearts tapered off) went a step farther and made all of our lives easier. And I thank them heartily for that!

I would like to have a choice of endreward, and I still don't

Because picking worthless items with different icon, that is so bad it will end at vendor 5 seconds later isn't really a choice.

[Qhualor]

Nobody asked for this?

Nobody asked for a way to NOT have to take comms for end rewards every single time? Nobody wanted to be able to chose from the various end rewards offered from 20 to 28? Everyone much prefered just taking comms every single time?

I'm going to have disagree there. I think a whole carpload of people disliked being forced to ignore all other end rewards from 20 to 28 and take comms. The introduction of heart seeds gives us the freedom to take any end reward now, because we know that once we hit cap we can get our epic heart of wood after running 20 so quests. I think that there is a whole lot of players who love the freedom this gives back to us.

Yes, we did ask for 4200 to be reduced, but that was more as a compromise. "You gave us this sucky system, please make it less sucky." Turbine (after the sales of ehearts tapered off) went a step farther and made all of our lives easier. And I thank them heartily for that!

right. nobody asked for it.

[pHo3nix]

One other thought on the loot thing. If you make EE loot so much more powerful than EH gear without an upgrade path, then everyone will be convinced they "need" EE gear.

So what happens next is everyone starts running EE. They don't realise it requires a change of playstyle for the majority of players. They get whacked. They spend hours trying and failing. They get nothing. Do they look introspectively and consider that perhaps a change of approach and some care is necessary? Hell no! They come on the forums and complain that EE is too difficult, and inevitably EE gets downgraded to EH.

Result is increased casualization. Like I said before, the best reason to run EE is because you want to. I'm all for some extra "attaboy" reward for those that want it and with True Elite saga rewards, you're pretty much there. By all means tweak it so that your 3rd Elite completion reward list guarantees a named EE tier item. Stick an extra Heart Seed into the chain end-reward if all quests in the chain were done on EE. Should be sufficient reward.

EE gear has never been that much more powerful than EH gear. Take Dragon helms, the difference is in the color of 1 of the slots: so sure, the EE version is better, but if you get the EH one it's not the end of the world. Such small things make people that can run EE happy cause they can get something that is even marginally better and should make people running lower difficulties happy as well.

GH is the example of the perfect way of handling loot, they should just make all items the same ML so you don't need to waste 3 bank slots for EN/EH/EE version while levelling. There's a reason why lots of EE GH items are still sought even though the pack is pretty old now.

[jalont]

People saying that the game has to take casuals into consideration too are way off base. All the game does is take casuals into consideration. They completely run the game. It seems like we get massive player power buffs every other month. It seems we give gear/seed/whatever handouts every other month. Casuals aren't the people that Turbine are in danger of turning off from the game. It's powergamers.

There should be a system that awards better players with better/quicker rewards. This only makes sense. That's not to say that casuals shouldn't or wouldn't be able to play too. They have their own playground. The problem is that every month that playground grows exponentially at the cost of the powergamer playground.

And it just isn't casuals that are at fault here either. Every day, good players that are able to obliterate all content in this game start threads asking for a buff to this or a buff to that. It's all out of control.

[Vint]

I skimmed this thread, but wanted to bring a point that I may have overlooked.

If a level 28 starts the LFM for all of GH EN, it could discourage a guy who is level 26 who does not want to break his streak. I have not paid much attention to this, but LFM’s could suffer a little if people are running mostly EN and leaving behind the people that still need to do EH. Sure people could break their streaks but you know as well as I that they will not, but they will come here and complain.

I do not have a dog in the fight so do not feel that I am picking a side, but I can see where this does have at least a few drawbacks.

[jalont]

I skimmed this thread, but wanted to bring a point that I may have overlooked.

If a level 28 starts the LFM for all of GH EN, it could discourage a guy who is level 26 who does not want to break his streak. I have not paid much attention to this, but LFM’s could suffer a little if people are running mostly EN and leaving behind the people that still need to do EH. Sure people could break their streaks but you know as well as I that they will not, but they will come here and complain.

I do not have a dog in the fight so do not feel that I am picking a side, but I can see where this does have at least a few drawbacks.

I keep my streak through epics, and I have somewhat become a slave to it, which is kind of sad when you think about it. But I'd be surprised if most other people pay any attention to streaks in epics whatsoever.

[AzB]

I could care less either way. I don't typically grind for gear, nor do I farm for xp. I play for fun, and simply play with fun groups on whatever setting they can handle and be somewhat of a challenge. I have toons with fewer lives and not well geared that I play when I play with other more casual players so my toon is not completely unbalanced. I have a completionist that is pretty much all geared out that I can take into more challenging parties playing everything on ee. I know how to run quests with or without cheesing them, and don't have a problem either way. Since I'm playing for fun, xp/min is a bit farther down the list of priorities than fun/min.

Obviously when I solo I just do whatever I want.

It really is that simple.

[pHo3nix]

There should be a system that awards better players with better/quicker rewards. This only makes sense. That's not to say that casuals shouldn't or wouldn't be able to play too. They have their own playground. The problem is that every month that playground grows exponentially at the cost of the powergamer playground.

The problem is that people will answer with: "but EE already grants better/quicker rewards!!! More xp and better drop rates!!!", cause EE drop rates are 0,000005 % instead of 0,000003% and xp are a little better. They simply fail to consider that you can't take these parameters in a vacuum: yes, EE drop rates and xp are better, but the xp/min and drop rates/min ratio clearly favor lower difficulties.

EEs needs way bigger incentives to be considered "worth" running: they could be unique loot or way better drop rates and xp.

After all there's a reason if daily xp runs are always on EN/EH: if EE was better xp/min people would be doing their daily xp runs on EE.

[Paleus]

The problem is that people will answer with: "but EE already grants better/quicker rewards!!! More xp and better drop rates!!!", cause EE drop rates are 0,000005 % instead of 0,000003% and xp are a little better. They simply fail to consider that you can't take these parameters in a vacuum: yes, EE drop rates and xp are better, but the xp/min and drop rates/min ratio clearly favor lower difficulties.

EEs needs way bigger incentives to be considered "worth" running: they could be unique loot or way better drop rates and xp.

After all there's a reason if daily xp runs are always on EN/EH: if EE was better xp/min people would be doing their daily xp runs on EE.

I would agree, EE needs better incentives. However, the endless TR XP cycle as a vehicle for selling power in the store (because selling a SOS in the store would be a no-no but selling xp pots and stones is a-ok) is at the heart of this issue, not casualization. The sole motivating factor for running EE should not have been only getting enough comms to TR. But when loot is constantly over-turned, no static end-game of challenging raids exists, and the only end-game is supposedly a string of easily solo'ed or short-manned quests (aka TRing) some people seem to have thought gaining a heart through repitition rather than buying it in the store was a challenge,

[TPICKRELL]

If the Devs deliver on their longer term promise to give lots of uses for COV's the problem will fix itself. Right now the uses for COV's is limited so Epic/Iconic Hearts was the primary(only real) sink. My guess is that intelligent weapons and other systems in upcoming updates will use COV's in large numbers.

It does feel wrong to have 2 Hearts (would cost 200 COV's) and 7 COV's on the same end reward list. But I'm glad that hearts are now obtainable for every one, and people not able/willing to buy and without the patience to grind 4200 COVs for a heart will have an option other than quitting the game in frustration. My Guild has had half a dozen people quit playing largely due to the COV for heart grind. Maybe a few of those will come back now.

[FranOhmsford]

After all there's a reason if daily xp runs are always on EN/EH: if EE was better xp/min people would be doing their daily xp runs on EE.

No they wouldn't!

The Elephant in the room that's being overlooked here is that we already have HUGE incentives to run EE first time through:

1) Favor
2) True Elite Saga Guild Renown {or XP if you're that desperate for it!}
3) BB Streak
4) Better Loot OR Better Loot chances dependant on Quest!

The fact is though that No-one in their right mind is going to take the time to keep running EEs once they've got all those 1st time benefits out of the way and can run 3 E-Hards or 5 E-Norms in the exact same time!

Actually...There is still one rather large benefit to continuing to run EEs after the 1st time - Epic Saga Rewards are NOT once and done!


Now I know what's coming in reply to this so I'll get it out the way here:

For those Players who for one reason or another don't care about Guild Renown and don't want basically free XP I would suggest that the Devs consider adding some other reward choices to the Saga list {Nothing out of proportion though!}
I'd suggest things like:

Flawless Sibery Dragonshard
+2-3 Skill Tome: UMD {btc of course}
Random Cosmetic Armour {btc on equip}
5 Major Slayer Pots {bta}
Shared Bank Upgrade {can only be used once}
Random Cosmetic Pet {Unbound}
Alignment Change Token {bta}
Name Change Token: Surname {bta}

Also consider adding an Epic Desert Saga with 5 Random Seals and 3 Random Shards on the list. {Please Please Please Epic Purge the Fallen Shrine while you're at it!}.

[Vint]

But I'd be surprised if most other people pay any attention to streaks in epics whatsoever.

If it is true that most LFM's prior to yesterday were for EH or better, I would say that people do care about their or want to get a better saga reward.

[Gljosh]

EE gear has never been that much more powerful than EH gear. Take Dragon helms, the difference is in the color of 1 of the slots: so sure, the EE version is better, but if you get the EH one it's not the end of the world. Such small things make people that can run EE happy cause they can get something that is even marginally better and should make people running lower difficulties happy as well.

GH is the example of the perfect way of handling loot, they should just make all items the same ML so you don't need to waste 3 bank slots for EN/EH/EE version while levelling. There's a reason why lots of EE GH items are still sought even though the pack is pretty old now.

While I like the "idea" of EN/EH/EE based Loot, the execution could have been better. If GH/HR/DD had included a way to upgrade the EN to EH and then to EE that would have been great. This is already being done with the Fall of Truth loot. That would kill two birds with one stone, less hardcore players could have better gear and two raids would get run more often. If you are already a hardcore player, you run EE to get your loot. If you are a casual (buy your loot on the ASAH) or get an EN/EH and raid to get CoHs to upgrade, you could use the same cost structure for FoT loot.

[relenttless]

All somewhat irrelevant as it turns out given that the seeds end reward seems to be bugged.

Last night ran 2 raids, got seeds. Happy camper.

today ran 3 GH quests for saga and seeds....No seeds in end reward list.

Apparently if you relog it MIGHT work.

well done Turbine, another virtuoso performance.

[Blackheartox]

If the Devs deliver on their longer term promise to give lots of uses for COV's the problem will fix itself. Right now the uses for COV's is limited so Epic/Iconic Hearts was the primary(only real) sink. My guess is that intelligent weapons and other systems in upcoming updates will use COV's in large numbers.

It does feel wrong to have 2 Hearts (would cost 200 COV's) and 7 COV's on the same end reward list. But I'm glad that hearts are now obtainable for every one, and people not able/willing to buy and without the patience to grind 4200 COVs for a heart will have an option other than quitting the game in frustration. My Guild has had half a dozen people quit playing largely due to the COV for heart grind. Maybe a few of those will come back now.

Wonna bet that sentient weapons will introduce a new ingredient type that will have apsolutely nothing to do with cov?
Taking into account former experience, i am quite confident i might win if you take the bet xD

[Blackheartox]

While I like the "idea" of EN/EH/EE based Loot, the execution could have been better. If GH/HR/DD had included a way to upgrade the EN to EH and then to EE that would have been great. This is already being done with the Fall of Truth loot. That would kill two birds with one stone, less hardcore players could have better gear and two raids would get run more often. If you are already a hardcore player, you run EE to get your loot. If you are a casual (buy your loot on the ASAH) or get an EN/EH and raid to get CoHs to upgrade, you could use the same cost structure for FoT loot.

Yes, so far i see positive feedback on this idea.
Same min level, upgradable and different tiers of loot. No complaints here from side of a ee player.
This would make me happy. Also i would add the point to make the gear maybe btaoe as some have suggested.
How do eh/en players thing about this idea?

[Chai]

The battle for accomplishment integrity and reward based on difficulty setting was lost years ago. Yeah we still see remnants of its existance, but those are being swept away.

Nowdays different grinding is rewarded with different currency, instead of tougher grinding being rewarded with higher quantities of the same currency.

[Gljosh]

If the Devs deliver on their longer term promise to give lots of uses for COV's the problem will fix itself. Right now the uses for COV's is limited so Epic/Iconic Hearts was the primary(only real) sink. My guess is that intelligent weapons and other systems in upcoming updates will use COV's in large numbers.

It does feel wrong to have 2 Hearts (would cost 200 COV's) and 7 COV's on the same end reward list. But I'm glad that hearts are now obtainable for every one, and people not able/willing to buy and without the patience to grind 4200 COVs for a heart will have an option other than quitting the game in frustration. My Guild has had half a dozen people quit playing largely due to the COV for heart grind. Maybe a few of those will come back now.

Wonna bet that sentient weapons will introduce a new ingredient type that will have apsolutely nothing to do with cov?
Taking into account former experience, i am quite confident i might win if you take the bet xD

There are so many things that CoVs could be used for, older Epic (Non-Raid) Shards and Seals, Augments, Cosmetics (Pets and Armor). Currently we have way too many ingredient types, CoVs would have been a great way to decrease that.