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  1. #161
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    The logical (both from realism and game mechanical standpoint) place for SWF is pin point precision, and high spike damage but low average damage.

    TWF double the weapons, Whirling steel = multiple hits effects procs and smooth normalized damage.

    THF wide swings, mass, momentum = cleaving, AOE damage.

    SWF controled measured awaiting the opening for a lethal strike = high spike damage, less speed, less procs no AOE

    Sad that the Devs are mailing it in by settling on attack speed and basically just trampling TWF for their lack of imagination, and unwillingness to listen to the numerous suggestions of making it spike damage. Oh well melee is so lame in DDO I've stopped playing them anyway.

    If you want lethal in DDO choose a casting class, otherwise prepare to saw stuff down.
    Most of this is correct but bolded is false.

    Also: I ve noticed people continue to believe in the myth that less blade weight = less force applied, which is false. With proper technique you strike as hard with a dagger as you do with a two handed sword. The force is applied by the body momentum generated by proper technique, not by the blade. The reason larger blades were used in open field combat is for reach and momentum.

    Bolded: In order to strike with equal amounts of lethal force, the second weapon needs to move backward as the first moves forward, balancing the body around the rotating core to deliver said force. The physics involved doesnt allow for faster striking more often with twf than with swf IRL. This is another myth, that more weapons means more strikes per time unit. This would be the case if it was a game of touch tag, but not when delivering lethal force by rotating the core of the human body, where one arm moves back while the other forward. TWF IRL is more for having a parrying weapon and a striking weapon, and two equal length blades = not letting the opponent know which is going to be which at any given moment.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-14-2014 at 02:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  2. #162
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're currently leaning towards making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, with the current versions of the feats.
    Sad to hear, it was interesting to actually see that play out, but so be it. Related... will this affect/break/etc using Unbridled Fury with SWF? As in... could a SWF bsword user cue that up to temporarily have both, despite being mutually exclusive? Or does that divide by zero. I'm hoping that at least gives us the chance to "epic moment" a combo we couldnt otherwise do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Internally we've several times discussed the idea of replacing the 200% ability score modifier with, "Add your Dexterity modifier to your damage (in addition to Strength or whatever other stat you are using, which might be Dexterity)." This potentially fit flavor/lore better, and differentiates it more from THF, but also forces all SWF to build for Dexterity (at least somewhat). That's one example of options we've considered, anyway. We usually try not to put out every crazy idea we've had internally, because (1) for brainstorming we'd rather you guys not get focused on our ideas but instead keep coming up with your own, because all of you may well think of things we haven't, and (2) it can be misleading to players as to what we're really strong considering for release. Of course, we're also trying to get things out in front of you guys sooner, which means things are more likely to change and we end up throwing away things some players liked.
    Three comments: One, replacing it with str+dex is terrible because as you have plainly stated, it forces builds into one archetype and seriously hurts what those feats should do (which is encourage a whole range of new builds, rather than one str/dex based one); so I am glad you have not done that. Two, I can appreciate not wanting to influence brainstorming by putting your ideas out first, but it can be quite useful to see them after the round of brainstorming is over. Frequently it serves to further develop or outline which things to focus on, from my view of it anyhow. So I appreciate places (such as here) where you do so (and again, such as here, its good to see you avoiding a bad decision like making it rely on 2 stats). Three, getting things out sooner seemed very helpful this time (as successive versions of the material got increasingly better), as well as satisfactory for feedback providers (as feedback on lama is historically offered too late to see any change actually happen). By getting it out early, change was able to occur, and the lama versions are close to ready. All of that makes for a more positive, useful, and playable game experience. So cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're also currently considering adding in a Coup de Grace ability to tier 5 on Swashbuckler, which would be a conditional instant kill attack.
    This sounds very interesting, as bards can struggle with taking out key mobs (such as a caster or something). They can easily area cc (against things which enchantments work on) or with fascinate (mob type pending), and can add group dps with songs as well as their own considerable dps with this tree. But they lack the ability to do targeted offense, and this could fill that role. Just please make it walk the line between QP (which is currently broken btw, tactics/combat mastery mods arent applying as they should) and Assassinate (which works fine but its very, very conditional).

    Something like a 15s cd with a 10+half character lvl+str mod (or whatever different track ability score you selected, like different track changes this from str to a new mod too). That would allow the whole range of swash flavors to actually use the thing, without making it too op. Only useable while in swash stance, and only against cc'd mobs (so like danced, fascinated, dazed... not moving/acting). You could require helpless mobs instead... but I fear that is too restrictive given that bards have very minimal tools to cause that, forcing this ability to either require teammates spec'd to help you, or multiclassing. I think cc'd is fair... if the mob cant move/act, you can coup de grace.

    Just some thoughts. Thanks for reading. Cheers.

  3. #163
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    Also: I ve noticed people continue to believe in the myth that less blade weight = less force applied, which is false. With proper technique you strike as hard with a dagger as you do with a two handed sword. The force is applied by the body momentum generated by proper technique, not by the blade. The reason larger blades were used in open field combat is for reach and momentum.
    F=ma is not a myth.

    A long, heavy, two-handed weapon will generate much more force than a small, light, one handed weapon (that isn't a gun).

    You can never strike as hard with a dagger as with a two handed sword or an axe. That's why people don't split firewood with daggers.
    Last edited by Postumus; 05-14-2014 at 02:32 PM.

  4. #164
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post

    You can never strike as hard with a dagger as with a two handed sword.

    Last battle scene in Rob Roy comes to mind.

  5. #165
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    OK. Given the number of feats sunk into it, ranged combat is relatively important to you. Thus you will lose something significant when pursuing that bit of extra power in melee.
    That is the opportunity cost.
    You just made an assumption that ranged combat is *important* to me. I find utility in having it, but the main reason why I have these feats is because there is nothing else I can spend those 7 feats on to increase my DPS. See for yourself - all I can really take for DPS is GTHF and greter weapon spec, what am I going to do with the other 5 feats? Gonna go with ranged instead.

    Once devs can actually give us more tactics, more THF/TWF feats to further expand our specialization in melee - the less max DPS melee builds with full ranged capability you'll have. Because, then in order to pick up ranged - you wouldn't be max melee DPS anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    Is there any particular reason that they need to be more powerful? Like for like, TWF and THF seem to be more powerful than SWF. SWF simply rewards deeper investment better, to the point where it overtakes the other two.
    What are you even saying here? I'm talking about the max dps potential for the fighting styles. You are fixated on ranged. Forget ranged, its just a playstyle that I can easily give up. If I don't manyshot, then I'll just melee. The point here is: THF DPS fully specced vs. SWF fully specced. Yes, SWF has 3 additional feats that affect its utility, but these 3 feats are getting removed from a lateral playstyle style, totally unrelated to the combat style we're talking about.

    SWF competes with THF even if I don't give it the THF feats. The THF feats just make the SWF DPS even better, I don't see anything else I can take to make THF better - and this isn't fair. TWF doesn't have 3 extra feats to better IT either. That's the point - potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    The question is: Is the return on investment for those 4 additional feats too powerful compared to what you have to give up?
    Again, you're fixated on ranged. Its a playstyle I chose because there was nothing else I can do to improve my melee DPS for the feats I had left over. As I've mentioned above. It has nothing to do with the effectiveness of my melee style - and it will get sacrificed if I can improve my melee damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    We already have issues with "no brainer" options like Monk and Paladin splashes where the return on investment is generally much more powerful than the opportunity cost. If the additional investment required for fully-specced out SWF (loss of 4 other feats/having to take 6 more levels of Fighter etc) is insignificant compared to the extra power gained, then that is indeed something that should be avoided just as much as the Monk and Paladin splashes.
    Significance is a word that people will treat differently. To me, my melee DPS is significant. I'm a melee player - a melee build. The ranged option is for versatility and convenient DPS because the devs haven't given us more tactics and melee DPS feats. I found myself with 7 extra feats, and ranged was the best way to use them. So, losing them to do more DPS with melee is no opportunity cost at all really.



    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    How do you even determine the feelings of such a metaphysical concept? :-)
    What? I've explained this already....

    SWF benefits from SWF feats AND THF feats, why doesn't THF or TWF get 3 extra feats from which its DPS benefits from? This sucks.

    SWF gains 200% benefit from strength (or any stat you wish). Why? Why doesn't THF benefit 300% then? This is getting shoehorned, and makes no intuitive sense. Why does a single weapon gain more benefit from strength than a MAUL does?

    SWF gets a stacking PERMANENT HASTE BOOST. This is a massive DPS gain, affects all weapon mutation proc rates, glancing blow rates, sneak attack rates, etc.

  6. #166
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    F=ma is not a myth.

    A long, heavy, two-handed weapon will generate much more force than a small, light, one handed weapon (that isn't a gun).

    You can never strike as hard with a dagger as with a two handed sword.
    This is false. Its the human body generating the force not the weapon. The more mass, the less acceleration when the same person is using each weapon.

    F=Ma ~ F=mA
    Last edited by Chai; 05-14-2014 at 02:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  7. #167
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is false. Its the human body generating the force not the weapon. The more mass, the less acceleration when the same person is using each weapon.
    Please show me a video of somebody splitting a log with a dagger.

  8. #168
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    You said you gave the post a mere "quick glance", but at the same time claimed that it "completely confirmed" your point. If you feel the term "confirmation bias" is being misused here then please substitute a different phrase that describes immediately latching onto data without analyzing it because it supports a personally held belief.
    I'm a scientist, well trained as a biochemist and I have years of experience in analysis and skeptical thinking - its safe to say that I know a thing or two about analyzing data. You're getting bent out of shape because I loosely typed the word "completely" in a post on a gaming forum. Please excuse my informality - I didn't find this data worthy of an hours dissection.

    What I did - I skimmed the charts for key points - I checked the base weapon damage, the power attack difference, that the 30% attack speed was accounted for, and other basic things. Saw it was there, so yes - at first glance it looked confirmatory because I did a rudimentary calculation right before his post that showed a result leaning in the same direction.

    If you're going to use a phrase you don't know the meaning of, don't get upset when you're called out to support it. if I am exhibiting confirmation bias, you HAVE to show me the parts of the data that I IGNORED because they were NOT confirmatory to my point.

    You STILL have all your work ahead of you. You think I wouldn't like seeing dis-confirmatory evidence for my point? I'd LOVE to be wrong, because I don't like the way these SWF feats are getting shoehorned into this game.

  9. #169
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Please show me a video of somebody splitting a log with a dagger.
    Thats has to do with weapon type. Same reason a sword will not cut a tree down as fast as an ax, even though both can be swung with the same force.

    Both will wound a human easily enough however.

    In D&D terms, a tree or log would have DR 10/ax
    Last edited by Chai; 05-14-2014 at 02:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  10. #170
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Thats has to do with weapon type. Same reason a sword will not cut a tree down as fast as an ax, even though both can be swung with the same force.

    Both will wound a human easily enough however.

    In D&D terms, a tree or log would have DR 10/ax
    Mass distribution - the center of mass for an axe is different than that of a sword. Its also different for a sword that it is for a dagger. This gets into torque and moments of inertia, I need to look up the formula. A simple F=MA doesn't cover the whole story. It depends on the area over which the force gets distributed. That's why it hurts so much when you step on a nail.

  11. #171
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Did you know that rapiers actually weighed about the same as a typical one-handed medieval sword?

    Interesting rapier misconceptions:


  12. #172
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Mass distribution - the center of mass for an axe is different than that of a sword. Its also different for a sword that it is for a dagger. This gets into torque and moments of inertia, I need to look up the formula. A simple F=MA doesn't cover the whole story. It depends on the area over which the force gets distributed. That's why it hurts so much when you step on a nail.
    Yes, it has to do with pressure, weight unit over area of contact. PSI for instance. At this point we are referring to the struck objects ability to resist the blow, due to properties of striking object, and object struck, even when the same force is generated - which in D&D would be DR.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-14-2014 at 03:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  13. #173
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Did you know that rapiers actually weighed about the same as a typical one-handed medieval sword?

    Interesting rapier misconceptions:
    Depends. If you are talking about the long swords knights used back in the full plate and warhorse days, not likely. Swords became lighter later on when people started wearing less armor - in europe. At that point in time a rapier and a typical long sword were likely close in weight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  14. #174
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Mass distribution - the center of mass for an axe is different than that of a sword. Its also different for a sword that it is for a dagger. This gets into torque and moments of inertia, I need to look up the formula. A simple F=MA doesn't cover the whole story. It depends on the area over which the force gets distributed. That's why it hurts so much when you step on a nail.
    I don't think so. F=MA is pretty much all you need to determine the force of a blow. How much of the force generated is transmitted to another object (like a Kobold) will vary on the amount of surface area contact between the objects.

    Spreading out the surface area (Club) vs concentrating it (Arrow) will have different effects on the Kobold, but the amount of force generated is M*A.

    A longer weapon generates a lot more momentum, which translates into more force (the acceleration part).

    So, despite Chai's claims to the contrary, all things being equal, you cannot generate the same force with a dagger that you can with an axe or great sword. Ever.
    Last edited by Postumus; 05-14-2014 at 04:02 PM.

  15. #175
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Default more interesting stuff

    Interesting comparison between one-handed sword, rapier, and side-sword.



  16. #176
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post

    A longer weapon generates a lot more momentum, which translates into more force (the acceleration part).

    So, despite Chai's claims to the contrary, all things being equal, you cannot generate the same force with a dagger that you can with an axe or great sword. Ever.
    Again false.

    F=Ma ~ F= mA.

    Are you telling me the same person could accelerate a two handed sword at the same rate they could accelerate the dagger?

    Remember all other things are equal, including time.

    When you give the same person capable of generating the same lethal strike energy a more massive weapon, less acceleration will occur in the same amount of time.

    More mass + less acceleration ~ less mass + more acceleration.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-14-2014 at 04:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Are you telling me the same person could accelerate a two handed sword at the same rate they could accelerate the dagger?
    A typical person can accelerate a two-handed sword to about 225% of the rate they can move a dagger. That's because the blade length allows the tip to travel through a much longer path within a single swing.

    If you'd like to test this, stand under a ceiling fan and stick your finger up into the blades. First try very near the hub, as if the blade length was short. Then let it get up to speed again and poke it at the outer rim, where the blade is longest. The outer position will do more damage to your body.

  18. #178
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    A typical person can accelerate a two-handed sword to about 225% of the rate they can move a dagger. That's because the blade length allows the tip to travel through a much longer path within a single swing.
    not when time is equal, which was the claim made. the tip has to travel a much larger distance on the front end than closer to the handle of the weapon. By the time the two handed weapon tip gets to the target, the dagger has already arrived with time to spare.

    D/T/T

    D&D 2.0e tried to simulate this with segmented combat where larger heavier weapons added more segment units to their initiative roll, which meant attacking later in the round, all other things being equal. It was more realistic but added alot of time to simulating a combat round.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-14-2014 at 04:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  19. #179
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I don't think so. F=MA is pretty much all you need to determine the force of a blow. How much of the force generated is transmitted to another object (like a Kobold) will vary on the amount of surface area contact between the objects.

    Spreading out the surface area (Club) vs concentrating it (Arrow) will have different effects on the Kobold, but the amount of force generated is M*A.

    A longer weapon generates a lot more momentum, which translates into more force (the acceleration part).

    So, despite Chai's claims to the contrary, all things being equal, you cannot generate the same force with a dagger that you can with an axe or great sword. Ever.
    F=ma is what you need to determine the force of the blow, but since a human is generating the acceleration, you need to use more complex formulas to determine the acceleration for a given weapon. If you're just putting a rock in your hand and punching someone with it, then yeah, the weight of the rock is going to just about cancel out. However, weapon designs involve torque when swung, so that changes everything. That's why hitting something with an axe is more effective than a dagger, you can't really swing the dagger, just stab at someone. Even using your arm in a swinging motion, you'll do better with the length of the axe.

    Then to get into effectiveness, you have to be able to hold the long weapon up off the ground, and you have to be able to move it quickly enough so that the opponent doesn't just step out of the way, and you have to be able to control the striking face/edge enough to actually hit your target. And the weapon has to actually hold together when swung and not tear itself apart from the forces involved, which is why you can't just hit someone with a spaghetti noodle with a 20lb weight on the end of it.

    This all seems absurdly off-topic, though.

  20. #180
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Just give me a lever, a place to stand, and Swashbuckler or SWF feedback.

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