Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[sollor]

atk with one weapon look a little boring.
if you spice it up sum with new animation may sell it a bit more.

[Chai]

F=ma is what you need to determine the force of the blow, but since a human is generating the acceleration, you need to use more complex formulas to determine the acceleration for a given weapon. If you're just putting a rock in your hand and punching someone with it, then yeah, the weight of the rock is going to just about cancel out. However, weapon designs involve torque when swung, so that changes everything. That's why hitting something with an axe is more effective than a dagger, you can't really swing the dagger, just stab at someone. Even using your arm in a swinging motion, you'll do better with the length of the axe.

Then to get into effectiveness, you have to be able to hold the long weapon up off the ground, and you have to be able to move it quickly enough so that the opponent doesn't just step out of the way, and you have to be able to control the striking face/edge enough to actually hit your target. And the weapon has to actually hold together when swung and not tear itself apart from the forces involved, which is why you can't just hit someone with a spaghetti noodle with a 20lb weight on the end of it.

This all seems absurdly off-topic, though.

Yes,and time plays a factor in all of that. When time IS NOT EQUAL and we are considering one strike (dagger) -vs- one strike (ax) then yes the ax hits harder than the dagger. Since acceleration has 2 time components, when time is equal the ax is not accelerating faster than the dagger when all other things are equal. A balanced MMO would have the dagger attacking faster, with the ax hitting harder. DPS would be similar.

Its on topic when considering people are protesting that a one handed weapon shouldnt strike with as much force as a two hander. When considering the acceleration factor playing into it, which has two time factors in its measurement, we can see how it can be similar force in the same amount of time given., with same person weilding both.

[Xaxx]

We're currently leaning towards making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, with the current versions of the feats.

So the math puts this out ahead of twf and thf... but you know... in all honesty if it was let stand why shouldnt it be the highest dps.... its 6 feats... 7 for many builds... 7 feats.... the total amount of base heroic feats you get all spent for one thing.... now lets be pefectly clear here... the only people who would go to this length will be high fighter base toons.. they're the only one with the amount of feats to wing thf swf and bastard sword or da...

let em stack or dont, but just remember letting them stack while the math puts it ahead by less than 10% is an incredibly character expensive thing to do... and before anyone flames me about the 12/6/2 builds.. you show many any and i mean any centered kensai style builds that just happen to have 4 extra feats laying around or are already dwarf and would choose to go da and 3 feats layin around.... sure you can drop many shot and all its prereqs for it.... congrats you just took dps away from you character to add dps in a different area and your out what and gaining what exactly?

[HatsuharuZ]

Just give me a lever, a place to stand, and Swashbuckler or SWF feedback.

Okay, I can do that.

I've already said what I thought about Swashbuckler, so....

SWF. I think the 200% stat modifier to damage is a bit much. I'd rather have more attacks. As a bard using resonant arms, I'd rather have a longer crit range and more attack speed with which to use the aforementioned enhancement. How about adding dexterity to critical hit damage, regardless of which stat is being used to modify damage rolls? Or doublestrike? Or triplestrike?

[Cetus]

I don't think so. F=MA is pretty much all you need to determine the force of a blow. How much of the force generated is transmitted to another object (like a Kobold) will vary on the amount of surface area contact between the objects.

Spreading out the surface area (Club) vs concentrating it (Arrow) will have different effects on the Kobold, but the amount of force generated is M*A.

A longer weapon generates a lot more momentum, which translates into more force (the acceleration part).

So, despite Chai's claims to the contrary, all things being equal, you cannot generate the same force with a dagger that you can with an axe or great sword. Ever.

So what don't you think so?

You need to know what to do with M and A in the equation. M isn't the mass of your weapon in the case of a maul or an axe, but its the center of mass you're using because a portion of the weapon will actually move in the opposite direction (explain this below). Also, the acceleration in the case of, say an axe chopping some wood is also aided by gravity.

Think about the mechanics of swinging a two-hander. You are pulling it with one hand, and pushing it with another. Your lever arm is actually moving in the direction opposite to the trajectory of its center of mass, and this also creates angular momentum - and torque which depend on the length of your arm, the longer the arm - the more distance the head needs to cover - so it gains considerable acceleration. The STRENGTH with which you pull with one arm and push with the other will dictate the result of these factors.

[jakeelala]

feedback:

I think Cetus and I fought it out well enough for you.

Dont let it work with THF OR if you want there to be able to be a 7 feat investment for something like a heavy fighter splash, let it do so with reduced effectiveness of glancing blows so as not to be egregious or outlandish.

Otherwise, it looks pretty good.

As for Swashbuckler I haven't tried it out yet, will on next Lama build and get back to you.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Just give me a lever, a place to stand, and Swashbuckler or SWF feedback.

*facepalm*

Your name is Vargouille - not Archimedes.

[Scrabbler]

Just give me a lever, a place to stand, and Swashbuckler or SWF feedback.

SWF feedback:

It is too slow and expensive for a pure Fighter to meet the rank requirements for SWF feats. The "Fighter" concept is to be professionally skilled at all forms of weapon training, so for that class to have trouble in that area doesn't make sense.

It's also a problem for other classes, like Cleric and FVS. The majority of Warpriest-favored weapons are one-hander melee, but it is much easier for a Cleric to qualify for THF than to have all those ranks in Balance (especially because you can wait until a late level to boost stats with tomes, but eating a +4 int tome for level 1 skillpoints is forbidden).

[Blackheartox]

So what don't you think so?

You need to know what to do with M and A in the equation. M isn't the mass of your weapon in the case of a maul or an axe, but its the center of mass you're using because a portion of the weapon will actually move in the opposite direction (explain this below). Also, the acceleration in the case of, say an axe chopping some wood is also aided by gravity.

Think about the mechanics of swinging a two-hander. You are pulling it with one hand, and pushing it with another. Your lever arm is actually moving in the direction opposite to the trajectory of its center of mass, and this also creates angular momentum - and torque which depend on the length of your arm, the longer the arm - the more distance the head needs to cover - so it gains considerable acceleration. The STRENGTH with which you pull with one arm and push with the other will dictate the result of these factors.

We are still talking about ddo, right?
Place where we have magic and enginering and magic manipulation.
And robots wielding big swords?

I never undestood why people try to bring physics in such a enviorment.
IF SUCH a WORLD existed, im pretty sure all laws of physichs would be upside down, as you dont even know what effects magical weapons add.
Tho in all honesty i would like a super lighfeather axe in rl when i go wood chopping every autumn.

All i see in this pointless discussion is a way to try and negate any way possibly to make something that can do more damage then a 2hander

[Firewall]

...We're also currently considering adding in a Coup de Grace ability to tier 5 on Swashbuckler, which would be a conditional instant kill attack.

That would be cool. Is this planned to work with thrown weapons if implemented?

[Systern]

Just give me a lever, a place to stand, and Swashbuckler or SWF feedback.

And you will move mountains?

The more feedback we give, the more you'll nerf monks!?!?! AWESOME!

[Cetus]

We are still talking about ddo, right?
Place where we have magic and enginering and magic manipulation.
And robots wielding big swords?

I never undestood why people try to bring physics in such a enviorment.
IF SUCH a WORLD existed, im pretty sure all laws of physichs would be upside down, as you dont even know what effects magical weapons add.
Tho in all honesty i would like a super lighfeather axe in rl when i go wood chopping every autumn.

All i see in this pointless discussion is a way to try and negate any way possibly to make something that can do more damage then a 2hander

Because physics is simply fun.

[Postumus]

I never undestood why people try to bring physics in such a enviorment.

Because the mundane rules governing how things interact with each other in DnD & DDO are based on the real world. Physics applies because not every single thing in the DnD universe is magical. Most things are not magical. That's why the base damage for daggers is less than the base damage for greatswords instead of random, arbitrary numbers. That's why when a toon falls off a ledge it takes damage from the fall. That's why items have weight and toons can be overburdened if their strength is too low.


Even magic has rules such as certain required spell components, spell pen, DCs, concentration checks, cost per spell level, fire spells can't hurt fire elementals, etc.


All of this probably matters more to people who actually played PnP. If a player thinks of DDO as simply another flavor of Super Mario Bros (with Kobolds), then these types of discussions would seem irrelevant.

[Postumus]

F=ma is what you need to determine the force of the blow, but since a human is generating the acceleration, you need to use more complex formulas to determine the acceleration for a given weapon.

None of that is necessary since it is easily demonstrated. Try to split a log with a dagger. Try to split a log with an axe. The most skilled shaolin-ninja-rogue will never split the log with the dagger, but my 80-year-old Opah can do it easily with the axe.


Back on topic:

Even if the single weapon feats do affect weapons like axes, bastard swords, and picks I don't think swashbucklers should get bonuses to any single-handed weapons that aren't swords, daggers, rapiers, etc.

[mezzorco]

SWF feedback:

It is too slow and expensive for a pure Fighter to meet the rank requirements for SWF feats. The "Fighter" concept is to be professionally skilled at all forms of weapon training, so for that class to have trouble in that area doesn't make sense.

It's also a problem for other classes, like Cleric and FVS. The majority of Warpriest-favored weapons are one-hander melee, but it is much easier for a Cleric to qualify for THF than to have all those ranks in Balance (especially because you can wait until a late level to boost stats with tomes, but eating a +4 int tome for level 1 skillpoints is forbidden).

This is a well put feedback, and you're right too.

Never thought about classes with cross-class balance, namely:
- Artificer (weapon+runearm)
- Barbarian (a barbarian with a rapier is strange, but what about battleaxe or warhammer?)
- Cleric and Favored Soul (almost all favored weapons are one-handed)
- Druid and Ranger (they don't need SWF anyway)
- Fighter (should be able to specialize in any style)
- Paladin (a longsword user paladin completely fits the theme)
- Sorcerer and Wizard (Eldritch Knight would make use of SWF)

So let's summarize: only bards, rogues and monks have balance as a class skill.
- Rogues prefer TWF for more SA, or staff for Thief Acrobat
- Monks prefer handwraps, TWF or staff depending on PrE


Unique class that would make use of SWF feats and has balance as a class skill is bard.

Devs, don't tell us that Swashbuckler and SWF are intended to be separate, because Swash requires SWF, and only bards can take SWF feat line.

[cru121]

Devs, don't tell us that Swashbuckler and SWF are intended to be separate, because Swash requires SWF, and only bards can take SWF feat line.

Interesting facts:
* All classes can invest skill points in Balance.
* Skill tomes exist.
* A pure fighter can max the SWF line sooner than a pure bard (fighter meets the requirements at level 11, bard at level 15).

I don't see how this is a bard thing.

[mezzorco]

Interesting facts:
* All classes can invest skill points in Balance.
* Skill tomes exist.
* A pure fighter can max the SWF line sooner than a pure bard (fighter meets the requirements at level 11, bard at level 15).

I don't see how this is a bard thing.

Don't know if skill tomes count for this, you could be right, I forgot about them. Anyway:

Let's think about a pure cleric, warpriest. Given favored weapons, a warpriest would clearly benefit from SWF.
BAB 11 at level 15 like a bard, but skill points? He would like to have maxed heal for positive sp, spellcraft for fire and light sp, UMD, and 7 balance.

In order to have all of them he has to start with 18 INT (16 if human), but he needs STR, CON, WIS and CHA too...

Here I'm not talking about endgame. Everything is viable endgame, but a 28/32 pt cleric with no tomes can't take SWF feat line until pretty late.
I hope you see my point

[Blackheartox]

None of that is necessary since it is easily demonstrated. Try to split a log with a dagger. Try to split a log with an axe. The most skilled shaolin-ninja-rogue will never split the log with the dagger, but my 80-year-old Opah can do it easily with the axe.


Back on topic:

Even if the single weapon feats do affect weapons like axes, bastard swords, and picks I don't think swashbucklers should get bonuses to any single-handed weapons that aren't swords, daggers, rapiers, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvlhXuweBj4

Basically, you can stick the dagger into the enemy then push it in with your buckler.
Damge is even higher if you use a rapier or any larger weapon since you can add not the only the force of the pierce/slash attempt but also the force of the bash, which overall will be more force aka more damage to the target then a 2handed swing.
From personal experience with axe more damage is aplied if you use for example a hammer to push the axe into wood after just pushing it a little bit in then on the inital slash /bad with english so cant translate terms correctly from my native, but i do have some experience since i was doing woodwork with people who won lotsa prizes in country regions in choping ---- you meet strange people during your life ---

(why am i arguing over this lol)

[Silken-Akira]

We're also currently considering adding in a Coup de Grace ability to tier 5 on Swashbuckler, which would be a conditional instant kill attack.

would love that.

Also and not only for this thread but for all update 22 communication a big thanks you for the the way you are interacting with us the playerbase. I very much like it when we are informed upfront and can brainstorm about it all.
Also an extra thanks to reacting so nicely when we are sometimes a bit overreacting in our responses, shows good form.

[Ausdoerrt]

This is a well put feedback, and you're right too.

Never thought about classes with cross-class balance, namely:
- Artificer (weapon+runearm)
- Barbarian (a barbarian with a rapier is strange, but what about battleaxe or warhammer?)
- Cleric and Favored Soul (almost all favored weapons are one-handed)
- Druid and Ranger (they don't need SWF anyway)
- Fighter (should be able to specialize in any style)
- Paladin (a longsword user paladin completely fits the theme)
- Sorcerer and Wizard (Eldritch Knight would make use of SWF)

So let's summarize: only bards, rogues and monks have balance as a class skill.
- Rogues prefer TWF for more SA, or staff for Thief Acrobat
- Monks prefer handwraps, TWF or staff depending on PrE


Unique class that would make use of SWF feats and has balance as a class skill is bard.

Devs, don't tell us that Swashbuckler and SWF are intended to be separate, because Swash requires SWF, and only bards can take SWF feat line.

Clerics, Paladins and such are more commonly seen with S&B (flavor-wise). EK is also designed with S&B in mind. Artis usually have high int thus more skillpoints to burn.

Also, multiclass exists for a reason, anyone can splash a few levels of bard, rogue or monk.