Update 23 Third Look

[KookieKobold]

Hey folks! Lamannia is now updated and online!

For this cycle of Lamannia, Crystal Cove has been activated and has been tuned to only require 20 map turn ins to open. Additionally, the Vanguard Tree is available to check out.

Release notes and known issues will be posted shortly.

[Cordovan]

Release Notes have been updated.

[Oxarhamar]

woot back to the future Update!

[Zurrander]

Vanguard is... so very very powerful... I love it! I have to say that all the paladin issuse are officially gone (save for the spells, LV 2 especially). But now the people that were crying about Holy Sword are going to cry Murder over vanguard...

Vanguard Shield Bash > Holy Sword on any weapon.

[KookieKobold]

wooo... need more coffee! fixing title of the thread!

[Maelodic]

So basically a Vanguard will be like TWF only your second weapon is a shield.

60% shield bash chance and 20% attack speed - with the LD twist of Shield mastery it's 20% doublestrike. It'll probably surpass TWF but I'm not one for math.

Also- liking the abundant step-like ability. I may make a pure bladeforged fighter at this point.

[Qhualor]

The changes to Adrenaline, how will this affect my barbarians? Changing it to melee and ranged power from a straight damage boost, is this good or bad? If I can get past 201 error I will see for myself otherwise I have to wait until Live.

[XodousRoC]

Hey folks! Lamannia is now updated and online!

For this cycle of Lamannia, Crystal Cove has been activated and has been tuned to only require 20 map turn ins to open. Additionally, the Vanguard Tree is available to check out.

Release notes and known issues will be posted shortly.

Well, we've all been waiting for Vanguard to make our final analysis of the Paladin pass...and I'm impressed. 2H and 2W fighters will gravitate toward KotC/HotD, but now there are offensive options on deck for sword and board as well, so some combination of Defender/Vanguard will rule the SnB clique.

Congratulations, you may have just enticed me out of my pajamas...

One bone of contention, though it regards KotC/HotD. If the enhancement cleaves are going to share cooldowns with the feats they ostensibly replace, they need to act as prereqs for Momentum Swing and Lay Waste, and need to proc a similar percentage chance to reset those cooldowns.

Overall, I'd have to say well done, and thank you for your efforts in improving our gaming experience

[Abdaka]

While I am looking forward to the paladin changes, I can't say the same about the additions of PRR, MRR and melee power. I feel as thought every change from dice rolls to percentages is a change in the wrong direction. Rather than adding these malignant percentage based calculations, players would more appreciate a rescaling of armor class and taking a second look at the lowest/highest AC possibilities for players and the level appropriate hit bonuses of monsters.

My second great concern is that you avoid mending the issue that allows players to gain TWF with SWF by taking single weapon fighting first and then taking ranger levels this patch. We all had a good laugh when we noticed the issue and single-handedly took down high level raid bosses but it's time to go back to normal.

[9001]

While I am looking forward to the paladin changes, I can't say the same about the additions of PRR, MRR and melee power. I feel as thought every change from dice rolls to percentages is a change in the wrong direction. Rather than adding these malignant percentage based calculations, players would more appreciate a rescaling of armor class and taking a second look at the lowest/highest AC possibilities for players and the level appropriate hit bonuses of monsters.

My second great concern is that you avoid mending the issue that allows players to gain TWF with SWF by taking single weapon fighting first and then taking ranger levels this patch. We all had a good laugh when we noticed the issue and single-handedly took down high level raid bosses but it's time to go back to normal.

Did I miss something? How can you get the benefit of both TWF and SWF at the same time, even if you have the feats?

[Zerkul]

Took a quick look at Vanguard, specced one and tried it. I must say that it's weird to see a shielded DPS but you guys made it right. For now Vanguard looks quite cool I must say it.

I don't understand why though you guys nerfed by 1 dice the Knight of the Chalice light damage.

EDIT: Looks like you guys remained the 1 internal cooldown on shieldbashes. It's better you guys remain it if you plan on keeping that high damage on shieldbashes.

[Abdaka]

Did I miss something? How can you get the benefit of both TWF and SWF at the same time, even if you have the feats?

This is not the proper place to discus details of exploits.

[9001]

Is the shield bash "timer" going to be removed? what about the improved shield bash feat? Or can someone direct me to another thread if it's been answered?

[BigErkyKid]

I have to explore it fully, but what I dislike right now is that any build that intends to do "optimal" DPS while using a shield will either have to be:

1. Swash (and then not use heavy armor)

2. Paladin lvl 14.

Any other build will be outclassed by those two options. In my opinion, what shielders need is:

1. Crit enhancements in the vanguard tree.

2. A completely different combat style designed for them.

PS - Optimal physical / melee DPS.

[Seikojin]

The changes to Adrenaline, how will this affect my barbarians? Changing it to melee and ranged power from a straight damage boost, is this good or bad? If I can get past 201 error I will see for myself otherwise I have to wait until Live.

To get past 201: reinstall the test client from scratch. look in the pc technical sub-forum. Lots of info there.

[Zurrander]

I have to explore it fully, but what I dislike right now is that any build that intends to do "optimal" DPS while using a shield will either have to be:

1. Swash (and then not use heavy armor)

2. Paladin lvl 14.

Any other build will be outclassed by those two options. In my opinion, what shielders need is:

1. Crit enhancements in the vanguard tree.

2. A completely different combat style designed for them.

PS - Optimal physical / melee DPS.

I don't think anyone using a Shield should ever do "Optimal" DPS... the Vanguard tree is made to give them "Competitive" DPS (which every melee needs to have). If we ever get to the Point where S&B is outclassing or even matching TWF/THF/SWF then something has gone wrong. So yes, Swash+Vanguard/Pally+Vanguard should be the "Optimal-Shield" DPS (along with Kensei+Vanguard... someone should take a look at that..) but they should by no means outclass the pure DPS builds.

P.S. (Swash+Vanguard isn't really a S&B combo, its a SWF fighting combo that takes advantage of an Exploit)... Though some may argue that the Devs intended Swashes to be DPS Gods..

[BigErkyKid]

I don't think anyone using a Shield should ever do "Optimal" DPS... the Vanguard tree is made to give them "Competitive" DPS (which every melee needs to have). If we ever get to the Point where S&B is outclassing or even matching TWF/THF/SWF then something has gone wrong. So yes, Swash+Vanguard/Pally+Vanguard should be the "Optimal-Shield" DPS (along with Kensei+Vanguard... someone should take a look at that..) but they should by no means outclass the pure DPS builds.

P.S. (Swash+Vanguard isn't really a S&B combo, its a SWF fighting combo that takes advantage of an Exploit)... Though some may argue that the Devs intended Swashes to be DPS Gods..

That is not what I meant.

What I meant is that if you want to reach the top DPS a shielder can do, you need to be either

1. 14 paladin

2. Swash and not wear heavy armor.

Which is rather narrow if you ask me.

The reason why those are the best DPS option for a shielder without any sort of doubt is because they are the only crit enhancements they can grab. And we all know by know that those nice bonus are what make a top DPS class. Kensei is inferior to holy sword, as is any other sort of crit enhancement you can find nowadays.

I did not imply that shielders should have better dps than purely offensive builds and what not...

[Qhualor]

To get past 201: reinstall the test client from scratch. look in the pc technical sub-forum. Lots of info there.

Yeah I've already re-downloaded Lama 5 different times and still have the same problem. I've read the 201 error thread and it all looks alien to me. The last time I messed with DDO files I borked Live and had to re-download.

[poltt48]

How come none of the items got changed? You already said you where nerfing some and improving others but not a single item got changed.

[Zurrander]

That is not what I meant.

What I meant is that if you want to reach the top DPS a shielder can do, you need to be either

1. 14 paladin

2. Swash and not wear heavy armor.

Which is rather narrow if you ask me.

The reason why those are the best DPS option for a shielder without any sort of doubt is because they are the only crit enhancements they can grab. And we all know by know that those nice bonus are what make a top DPS class. Kensei is inferior to holy sword, as is any other sort of crit enhancement you can find nowadays.

I did not imply that shielders should have better dps than purely offensive builds and what not...

Oh, sorry. In that case I agree, the Devs should either boost Kensei to match (or beat out) holy Sword & Swash or they should bring them down to Kensei Level. As far as I can tell they just need to Give Kensei +1 Crit Multi with there weapon focus to make it competitive again (that should be easy enough, just replace "Critical Damage" with the suggested enhancement).
That way Pally-Bard-Fighter could all share the Top Shield DPS, and considering that these are the "Shield" classes (well, not bard, but I'll let it go) that should be just fine.

I'm still not sure how Holy Sword gets to be in the same category with Swashbuckler though? Does Holy Sword even match up to "Exploit Weakness" by itself? Just 6 Points into Swashbuckler will let you match Holy Sword with a Lv 3 Bard... (granted, you can't do it with any weapon. But I think the Devs will eventually make Holy Sword work only for "Swords" anyway)