Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[PermaBanned]

The build I was running around with last night was a legitimate pure Bard! I had all three Single Weapon Fighting feats, stacking with Haste and Action Boost: Haste Boost.

This is the first comment I've ever seen from a Dev regarding any form of playtesting, thus I'm curious:

Would this example be indicative of "typical?" Or in other words, when testing new enhancement or destiny ideas & additions, do you generally test with your vision of "how it should work/should be played" or do you look for and try to build grossly over powered (pinch of this/splash of that) combos looking for broken synergies and effects that work better than/not restricted to their written descriptions? Because, you know we'll be doing the latter... *cough*ranged adrenalin*cough*furyshot*cough*

[Nascoe]

It is though that's a Bastard Sword @ 1121 vs a Falchion @ 1180 with only 3 feat if he switches to a Rapier with only 3 feat the Rapier will come out ahead.

Yes, its a Bastard sword. But lets not forget that a rapier does not even have an opportunity for glancing blows, taking away the AoE part of the damage completely. Off course the damage dies are quite something different as well and its piercing damage. I have no doubt that these could be modelled to make a realistic comparison using this excel sheet as the basis, but its not as easy as you mention.

- Edit:
From your own analyses (I had read that earlier but forgot about it, thanks for linking to it) it indeed shows amazing damage for rapiers (at least the best rapiers in the game) using SWF.

So you guys worry that SWF as such is strong enough to be a better option than THF builds. And Cetus argues that when combining both feat lines and taking exotic weapon BS they become so powerfull that even for him it would make him change builds towards this at the cost of dropping ranged options?

Personally I am surprised that it's that powerful. I guess its something for the devs to consider. On the other hand, if it is, wouldn't that mean making melee more viable vs. ranged, something I do not see as a problem but rather as a positive. It would mean a shift from some current top builds to find new ones (that alone could appeal to some of us) that are even better.

It might be worth considering though whether the speed boost for SWF should stack with weapons that can use glancing blows (on the basis that they are heavy and getting a good swing takes time).

[WheelerCub]

Let's face it, thrown weapons currently suck. I don't think they need to be included in Single Weapon Fighting, because they have their own feat progression (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Quick Draw). But I do feel that because they currently are so slow, those feats should have an attack speed increase in Update 22.

In addition, it would be nice to see that the 3rd Tier "Different Tack" line of the Swashbuckler should apply to both melee and thrown weapons. This would help tremendously with thrown build damage as Bard players won't just be stuck with Halfling DEX thrower damage, or multiclassing for Rogue INT damage, or high STR damage for throwing weapons.

[Khatzhas]

The opportunity cost (for my build) would be to just simply drop ranged.

OK. Given the number of feats sunk into it, ranged combat is relatively important to you. Thus you will lose something significant when pursuing that bit of extra power in melee.
That is the opportunity cost.

If you wanna play that card: "oh a style that uses 6 feats should be more powerful" then answer me this: Why doesn't THF or TWF also have 3 additional feats that make them more powerful? Why does SWF become the only fighting style with 6 feats that upgrade its DPS?

Is there any particular reason that they need to be more powerful? Like for like, TWF and THF seem to be more powerful than SWF. SWF simply rewards deeper investment better, to the point where it overtakes the other two.

The question is: Is the return on investment for those 4 additional feats too powerful compared to what you have to give up?

We already have issues with "no brainer" options like Monk and Paladin splashes where the return on investment is generally much more powerful than the opportunity cost. If the additional investment required for fully-specced out SWF (loss of 4 other feats/having to take 6 more levels of Fighter etc) is insignificant compared to the extra power gained, then that is indeed something that should be avoided just as much as the Monk and Paladin splashes.

This fighting style is an INSULT to the existing well-balanced combat styles, and zerkul's preliminary calculations supported my point.

How do you even determine the feelings of such a metaphysical concept? :-)

[MangLord]

I did a pure bard DEX build yesterday with all feats going towards self healing and swashbuckling.

Feats are just barely enough. I took all three SWF feats, empower heal, quicken, improved crit piercing and precision, and I had none left over. Swashbuckler is basically an all or nothing build for pure bard. That's ok if you plan on this being a viable build to specialize in.

I loved the option of DEX, INT or CHA for damage. Thank you. I built an elf pure bard with racial proficiencies for rapier, and was still getting a lot of grazing hits. I guess an Accuracy item is needed.

The main thing that annoyed me was a constant string of whatever the enhancement is that boosts my crit range cycling over my head non-stop. I appreciate the effect, but can it work like the shintao monk ability where it counts off on my buffs, but not "HEY" constantly above my head? I find it distracting.

The overall damage is good but not great. Given that I'm using a rapier, I'm not sad, but non-plussed either. The attack speed is good, but you kinda need it as a melee focused, low HP class with moderate healing abilities. If you nerf the SWF feats, this will not be a viable build. Bards will continue to be terrible. As it stands currently, I see swashbuckler saving bard from gimpiness into the realm of survivable as a TR class.

I don't crunch numbers and charts, but a pure bard is ok as a swashbuckler. I'm sure people are already breaking the build with monk splits, but as a pure class it's just ok. Better than the other options, but nothing terrific. I'll probably run my bard life as a bard18/rogue2 for the early evasion and trapping skills.

The capstone is pathetic compared to 2 rogue levels. Rethink your position. Ranger gets evasion at level 8 or so. Why wouldn't a swashbuckler?

[Zerkul]

These numbers seem to support that on very high strength builds, the combination of SWF and THF feats would far outshine THF feats alone. While three additional combat feats taken should indeed result in higher DPS, if these numbers are to be taken seriously, the resulting higher numbers for the six feats together would be too high.

Perhaps THF and SWF feats should not be usable on the same weapon.

In red. Exactly, while on low levels power attack bonuses might be a good part of your DPS on later levels strength modifier becomes more important.

[Khatzhas]

What about instead of doubling the normal base modifier for damage, they were to allow two ability modifiers to apply.

So for example, you would apply your Dex mod to damage in addition to your strength mod? Or use enhancements to apply both Charisma and Dex etc.

That should reduce the power somewhat since it takes the focus a little away from the single, most easily raised stat and spreads it around.

[Nightmanis]

What about instead of doubling the normal base modifier for damage, they were to allow two ability modifiers to apply.

So for example, you would apply your Dex mod to damage in addition to your strength mod? Or use enhancements to apply both Charisma and Dex etc.

That should reduce the power somewhat since it takes the focus a little away from the single, most easily raised stat and spreads it around.

I don't like this idea simply because of the number of combinations there would need to be. This then deteriorates into everyone just taking the strength and charisma.

[Mryal]

What a pointless discussion in a thread that is suposed to be about swashbuckler and not about fighters using rune arms with bastard swords.This is just how people are,they complain,complain and complain about how non-melee forms of damage are way more efficent right now (and they are), and when turbine tries to give a bit of melee love they...
Complain about it.

Please dont end up getting single weapon fighting nerfed, i loved it on my future bard.

The overall damage is good but not great. Given that I'm using a rapier, I'm not sad, but non-plussed either. The attack speed is good, but you kinda need it as a melee focused, low HP class with moderate healing abilities. If you nerf the SWF feats, this will not be a viable build. Bards will continue to be terrible. As it stands currently, I see swashbuckler saving bard from gimpiness into the realm of survivable as a TR class.

Agreed.

The capstone is pathetic compared to 2 rogue levels. Rethink your position. Ranger gets evasion at level 8 or so. Why wouldn't a swashbuckler?

Once again i say, evasion at 12.Improved Evasion at 20.Capstones better than evasion they promissed? Everyone knows that the only thing better than evasion is Improved Evasion.

[Vargouille]

We're currently leaning towards making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, with the current versions of the feats.

Or in other words, when testing new enhancement or destiny ideas & additions, do you generally test with your vision of "how it should work/should be played" or do you look for and try to build grossly over powered (pinch of this/splash of that) combos looking for broken synergies and effects that work better than/not restricted to their written descriptions? Because, you know we'll be doing the latter... *cough*ranged adrenalin*cough*furyshot*cough*

We were fairly aware Furyshot was going to be the best burst DPS in the game before release. It wasn't completely clear how the overall build would fare (vs. all other Epic Destinies which were being developed simultaneously).

When I told players I'd tested some Smite Evil with Deathnips with Adrenaline, some players said I was crazy because no one used Deathnips. Of course, some threads later popped up about how Heavy Picks and Adrenaline could be a viable build or even swap-item for certain playstyles or enemies.

So for example, you would apply your Dex mod to damage in addition to your strength mod? Or use enhancements to apply both Charisma and Dex etc.

That should reduce the power somewhat since it takes the focus a little away from the single, most easily raised stat and spreads it around.

Internally we've several times discussed the idea of replacing the 200% ability score modifier with, "Add your Dexterity modifier to your damage (in addition to Strength or whatever other stat you are using, which might be Dexterity)." This potentially fit flavor/lore better, and differentiates it more from THF, but also forces all SWF to build for Dexterity (at least somewhat). That's one example of options we've considered, anyway. We usually try not to put out every crazy idea we've had internally, because (1) for brainstorming we'd rather you guys not get focused on our ideas but instead keep coming up with your own, because all of you may well think of things we haven't, and (2) it can be misleading to players as to what we're really strong considering for release. Of course, we're also trying to get things out in front of you guys sooner, which means things are more likely to change and we end up throwing away things some players liked.


We're also currently considering adding in a Coup de Grace ability to tier 5 on Swashbuckler, which would be a conditional instant kill attack.

[brian14]

Quite a few people will want to respec their feats in order to take advantage of the SWF -- which can be up to three feats. Will we get a free LR heart to do it?

[IronClan]

We're currently leaning towards making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, with the current versions of the feats.



We were fairly aware Furyshot was going to be the best burst DPS in the game before release. It wasn't completely clear how the overall build would fare (vs. all other Epic Destinies which were being developed simultaneously).

When I told players I'd tested some Smite Evil with Deathnips with Adrenaline, some players said I was crazy because no one used Deathnips. Of course, some threads later popped up about how Heavy Picks and Adrenaline could be a viable build or even swap-item for certain playstyles or enemies.



Internally we've several times discussed the idea of replacing the 200% ability score modifier with, "Add your Dexterity modifier to your damage (in addition to Strength or whatever other stat you are using, which might be Dexterity)." This potentially fit flavor/lore better, and differentiates it more from THF, but also forces all SWF to build for Dexterity (at least somewhat). That's one example of options we've considered, anyway. We usually try not to put out every crazy idea we've had internally, because (1) for brainstorming we'd rather you guys not get focused on our ideas but instead keep coming up with your own, because all of you may well think of things we haven't, and (2) it can be misleading to players as to what we're really strong considering for release. Of course, we're also trying to get things out in front of you guys sooner, which means things are more likely to change and we end up throwing away things some players liked.


We're also currently considering adding in a Coup de Grace ability to tier 5 on Swashbuckler, which would be a conditional instant kill attack.

Please do, you know I've lobbied for it and T5 swashbuckler is beyond weak (last I saw it haven't checked the Lam version to be honest) the whole tree is still meh IMO.

I'm still really disappointed in SWF being kinda mishmash of TWF (speed increase treads the same ground as off hand chance and additional procs) and THF (bonus to damage stat). The logical design space IMO was sudden lethality "parry, parry, faint left, KILL SHOT" a way to be suddenly lethal in swashbuckler would be welcome IMO.

So would Acrobatic Charge from the actual PnP class IMO, but you guys have ignored all requests for a movement based ability so I'm guessing it's not a well liked idea around the office

If I sound like a broken record it's because DDO really needs more movement abilities, this is a chance to put one in that is actually part of the class in PnP.

BTW Deathnips rock, sure wish there was an endgame version of them (hint hint)

[Artagon]

We're currently leaning towards making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, with the current versions of the feats.



We were fairly aware Furyshot was going to be the best burst DPS in the game before release. It wasn't completely clear how the overall build would fare (vs. all other Epic Destinies which were being developed simultaneously).

When I told players I'd tested some Smite Evil with Deathnips with Adrenaline, some players said I was crazy because no one used Deathnips. Of course, some threads later popped up about how Heavy Picks and Adrenaline could be a viable build or even swap-item for certain playstyles or enemies.



Internally we've several times discussed the idea of replacing the 200% ability score modifier with, "Add your Dexterity modifier to your damage (in addition to Strength or whatever other stat you are using, which might be Dexterity)." This potentially fit flavor/lore better, and differentiates it more from THF, but also forces all SWF to build for Dexterity (at least somewhat). That's one example of options we've considered, anyway. We usually try not to put out every crazy idea we've had internally, because (1) for brainstorming we'd rather you guys not get focused on our ideas but instead keep coming up with your own, because all of you may well think of things we haven't, and (2) it can be misleading to players as to what we're really strong considering for release. Of course, we're also trying to get things out in front of you guys sooner, which means things are more likely to change and we end up throwing away things some players liked.


We're also currently considering adding in a Coup de Grace ability to tier 5 on Swashbuckler, which would be a conditional instant kill attack.

Thank you for that inside peek.

While I can certainly understand making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, I feel that this would be an injustice to the Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe, as you would be consigning them to the short end of the stick. Rather, I think it might be good to limit the bonuses granted, perhaps just the speed portion?

I tend to agree with your assessment that +Dex to damage would be limiting for builds, though I do think that in the Swashbuckler line, the Stat to Damage line should be rewritten to +1/2 stat to dmg (on top of existing dmg) and I would likely want to remove Charisma as an option, simply to avoid Divine Might builds getting too much bonus out of charisma. Unfortunately making a line that replaces strength is simply not a good option for builds because as other players have stated, no other stat can come close to the number of buffs that Strength can, thus making any other option sub-par.

What about options that would make SWF better at certain non-DPS things.. like faster cooldowns on Tactical Feats, faster tumble animations (and while you're at it, making it easier to tumble quickly in combat, like double-tapping a direction, or if you block while moving?) I do appreciate that you want to keep it on-par with the DPS of the other styles, and I certainly wouldn't want to take that away, so.. I don't know. I do think that the x2 stat modifier is super powerful, but it does seem to do a good job balancing the line.

Please do move the bonuses around though, that first feat will make low level characters just plain awful when specializing in this line.

[maddmatt70]

We're currently leaning towards making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, with the current versions of the feats.
.

Altough i understand that you need to balance these styles a bit, please do not kill dwarven war axes and dwarven one hander builds. This proposal would kill dwarven war axes in practical terms. No dwarf should have to use a rapier.

[Seikojin]

WAIT . . . so it SURPRISES you that with the proposed SWFing stuff it's the best fighting style?

No, I think he finds that build interesting. Nor surprising. I think it is interesting too. Good thing you can't use b-swords as a swashbuckler. Because that would be flavor of the year.

[brian14]

When I told players I'd tested some Smite Evil with Deathnips with Adrenaline, some players said I was crazy because no one used Deathnips. Of course, some threads later popped up about how Heavy Picks and Adrenaline could be a viable build or even swap-item for certain playstyles or enemies.

My artificer (currently level 18) invested a feat into Heavy Pick proficiency. His default melee weapon is Deathnip with Ruby of Endless Night.

[Scrabbler]

Internally we've several times discussed the idea of replacing the 200% ability score modifier with, "Add your Dexterity modifier to your damage (in addition to Strength or whatever other stat you are using, which might be Dexterity)." This potentially fit flavor/lore better, and differentiates it more from THF, but also forces all SWF to build for Dexterity (at least somewhat).

Here's a variation on that which doesn't force them to pump Dexterity:
"Add either your Strength or Dexterity modifier to damage, whichever is higher and you aren't already using for damage".

That way a Bard Swashbuckler might wind up with Cha+Dex, while a Rogue could use Dex+Str and an Artificer Int+Str. Then if that Bard is hit with Primal Scream and his Strength becomes higher, he automatically changes to Cha+Str.

[OverlordOfRats]

We're currently leaning towards making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, with the current versions of the feats.

/Snip

Thank you for that inside peek.

While I can certainly understand making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, I feel that this would be an injustice to the Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe, as you would be consigning them to the short end of the stick. Rather, I think it might be good to limit the bonuses granted, perhaps just the speed portion?
/Snip

Altough i understand that you need to balance these styles a bit, please do not kill dwarven war axes and dwarven one hander builds. This proposal would kill dwarven war axes in practical terms. No dwarf should have to use a rapier.

I think I'm missing something.

We would not be able to take both on the same character.
But, wouldn't we have the ablitly to take THF for glancing blows or SWF for the speed increase?

[Scrabbler]

No dwarf should have to use a rapier.

What pushes some Dwarves to use Rapier is the bad design of some weapon loot, which causes the same amount of extra damage on every crit no matter if you've got 2x, 3x, or 4x. Thunderforged especially.

If the devs fix future weapons so that 3x gives more powerful crit damage, then using Rapier/Scim/Kukri isn't as important anymore.

[Scrabbler]

A few bad Swashbuckler things:

• Since Monk Ninja has a chance to throw extra projectiles, it's sad that Swashbuckler doesn't also have that chance. (You can't take Monk+Bard levels, so there'd be no risk of stacking them together)
  
  
• It's sad that Swashbuckler has a speed boost that stacks with Barb, but Acrobat has no speed boost. (Originally Acrobat had one, but it was taken away presumably because of Barb stacking)
  
  
• It's sad that Swashbuckler gets a huge Mace bonus to make Mace usable, while Iconic Morninglord Warpriest does not get a usable Mace bonus. (It's the favored weapon, but no)