Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[Dilbon]

From a roleplaying perspective SWF should become more popular than TWF. I've always thought it's silly that so many characters in DDO fight with two weapons when it should be a niche style that only true badasses practice. Like in fiction in general.

Oh, this was a discussion about swashbuckler. Never mind.

[Zerkul]

I think the weight of a weapon puts the emphasis on inaccuracy and range of attacks (big weapon means big range). Strength, short of hte strength required to wield it, isn't that important. Being physically large enough to move it around quickly is important, but that again isn't necessarily strength based. It's physics.

Stabbing someone with a rapier and only piercing the skin versus having the rapier come out of their back is about strength.

Anyway, everyone in DDO has at least 18 strength and can lift 2 tons. So this isn't a good way to have the argument.

It's not a case that there's a specific Pre in D&D that requires you to wield a weapon with two hands in order to apply x2 strength modifier: http://dndtools.eu/classes/exotic-weapon-master/ .

Think of it.

EDIT: @Jakeelala: check uncanny blow feature... You wield an exotic weapon that you could normally wield one handed (ex: bastard sword) and get double strength bonus for it.

[jakeelala]

It's not a case that there's a specific Pre in D&D that requires you to wield a weapon with two hands in order to apply x2 strength modifier: http://dndtools.eu/classes/exotic-weapon-master/ .

Think of it.

I don't understand why you linked a page about exotic weapon feats

[Cetus]

You just keep saying swf should suck but i think its because you like twf,

Nope, I've never had a TWF character. I just respect the investment TWF players made to be DPS builds, and I wouldn't want to see their efforts subordinated by this stupid SWF style. Yes I don't really like it, but for practical reasons - not because of some irrational emotionally driven justification.

Bottomline: It cheapens the meaning of BEING a Two-handed fighter or a duel wielder. All of a sudden throwing one weapon in your hand gains more benefit from strength than a maul or a greataxe. All of a sudden it gets a whopping ****30%*** stacking attack speed bonus, and 2 of the weapon choices even land glancing blows. Its getting shoehorned into this game. Am I the only one that sees this?

I also wonder if a thunder-forged orb crafted in your offhand will apply the bonuses to your mainhand. I wouldn't be surprised if it worked, which in combination with the attack speed + chance to proc special weapon effects on glancing blows = an amazing barrage of weapon effects exactly like mortal fear and the rest of the mutations present on WW crafting.

not because you have a good argument. In reality fighting with two weapons is hard and does not make someone more dangerous. In fact historically, as a combat style, twf is almost always defensive and offensive. Block parry block strike strike strike.

Actually, your disagreement doesn't mean that I have a bad argument. I'm arguing for the implementation of specific attributes that allow each weapon style to excel at a particular thing. That can't be a bad thing to argue for.

Did you just say in reality? In reality you wouldn't hit an enemy with a piece of metal and see a number appear on top of their head. Well, unless you're on drugs...

I respect that you have a different opinion abput what you want, but your argument for how to implement swf makes no sense and would be nothing but a waste of development time. No one would use it.

Doesn't make sense? I think I expressed myself clearly enough. THF bigger numbers, better AOE damage, TWF faster attack rate - better single target damage, SWF more versatile combination of the two, with option of runearm or orb in off hand to supplement your damage. What doesn't make sense?

And i never said twf should have bad damage, i said it should he lower than swf, and higher than thf. They should all be clustered and none should do that much more damage than the other. They all cost 3 feats and so should have similar bonuses at end of the day.

Lol - so wait a minute...SO if TWF damage should be lower than SWF, but higher than THF, that means that SWF should be higher damage than THF as well. Right?

But then you say that none should do more damage...which is a contradiction because you didn't provide any context. Clearly my suggestion, therefore, makes more sense because I gave general context for when each style should excel.

Building a line of feats philosophically around mortal fear is a bad idea.

Did I suggest building feats for mortal fear? I only mentioned that mortal fear gets procced more often with faster attack rates. Just stating a fact.

None of the styles should he built with a single weapon like a bastard sword in mind. I do think any single weapon should be affected however, not just finessibles. And no i dont think Swf should be a niche thing costing 3 feats just for a swashbuckler. It should universally attractive to builds as a playstyle. Otherwise its a waste.

Again, non sequiter point with regard to the bastard sword. Its a weapon that lands glancing blows, and if you have a high enough % chance to proc special weapon effects on glances, its an attractive option, that's all I said. I'm not recommending for a style to be built around them.

SWF doesn't cost 3 feats just for a swashbuckler, it costs 3 feats for everyone - so does TWF and THF. It shouldn't be anymore attractive than THF and TWF are right now, which are both pretty well balanced at the moment I think. At this rate, SWF is blatantly OFFENDING the integrity of those two styles by receiving a permannt stacking haste boost, 50% more benefit from strength than a friggin maul gets, takes advantage of glancing blow opportunity, AND will most likely get augmented by the effects present on an off hand rune arm or orb (this last part is a guess).

[Silken-Akira]

Was hoping to see some feedback from the Lamannia guys on the tree but only see discussions on the SWF feat line.
Any has some good news (hopefully) about the tree?

[jakeelala]

Nope, I've never had a TWF character. I just respect the investment TWF players made to be DPS builds, and I wouldn't want to see their efforts subordinated by this stupid SWF style. Yes I don't really like it, but for practical reasons - not because of some irrational emotionally driven justification.

Bottomline: It cheapens the meaning of BEING a Two-handed fighter or a duel wielder. All of a sudden throwing one weapon in your hand gains more benefit from strength than a maul or a greataxe. All of a sudden it gets a whopping ****30%*** stacking attack speed bonus, and 2 of the weapon choices even land glancing blows. Its getting shoehorned into this game. Am I the only one that sees this?

I also wonder if a thunder-forged orb crafted in your offhand will apply the bonuses to your mainhand. I wouldn't be surprised if it worked, which in combination with the attack speed + chance to proc special weapon effects on glancing blows = an amazing barrage of weapon effects exactly like mortal fear and the rest of the mutations present on WW crafting.




Actually, your disagreement doesn't mean that I have a bad argument. I'm arguing for the implementation of specific attributes that allow each weapon style to excel at a particular thing. That can't be a bad thing to argue for.

Did you just say in reality? In reality you wouldn't hit an enemy with a piece of metal and see a number appear on top of their head. Well, unless you're on drugs...





Doesn't make sense? I think I expressed myself clearly enough. THF bigger numbers, better AOE damage, TWF faster attack rate - better single target damage, SWF more versatile combination of the two, with option of runearm or orb in off hand to supplement your damage. What doesn't make sense?



Lol - so wait a minute...SO if TWF damage should be lower than SWF, but higher than THF, that means that SWF should be higher damage than THF as well. Right?

But then you say that none should do more damage...which is a contradiction because you didn't provide any context. Clearly my suggestion, therefore, makes more sense because I gave general context for when each style should excel.



Did I suggest building feats for mortal fear? I only mentioned that mortal fear gets procced more often with faster attack rates. Just stating a fact.



Again, non sequiter point with regard to the bastard sword. Its a weapon that lands glancing blows, and if you have a high enough % chance to proc special weapon effects on glances, its an attractive option, that's all I said. I'm not recommending for a style to be built around them.

SWF doesn't cost 3 feats just for a swashbuckler, it costs 3 feats for everyone - so does TWF and THF. It shouldn't be anymore attractive than THF and TWF are right now, which are both pretty well balanced at the moment I think. At this rate, SWF is blatantly OFFENDING the integrity of those two styles by receiving a permannt stacking haste boost, 50% more benefit from strength than a friggin maul gets, takes advantage of glancing blow opportunity, AND will most likely get augmented by the effects present on an off hand rune arm or orb (this last part is a guess).

This was far more eloquently argued than your previous responses, you can't fault me for that. But I will clarify some things

It doesn't cheapen being a two-handed fighter. When you have 4 mobs in front you, and you cleave, and you hit them all, and you do glancing blow damage that is 60-100% of your normal damage, you are doing 300% (very roughly) MORE damage than you would to a single target. That's an ENORMOUS amount of extra damage.

A TWF or SWF character would only ever do more damage than a THF to a SINGLE target. So maybe the SWF or TWF on average does I dunno, even as much as 100% more damage to a single target than a THF character, the THF character, as long as their playtime doesn't consist of only ever attacking 1 mobs anytime they play DDO, is still doing more damage. Most fights in DDO are against multiple targets. Not all, but most. And if they aren't with the content you play, play a character that excels against all those single high HP bag mobs you are hypothetically fighting more.

In the system you suggest THF is simply just the best use of 3 feats, period. Anything that doesn't jive with that bothers you. You have made a small concession to TWF wielders saying they should have a small advantage on single targets, but only if they use high proc weapons. Even if these ideas were the best possible ideas for those two fighting styles, they leave no room for SWF. And I have a shuriken thrower, almost NOTHING from TF weapons applies to main hand damage. The exceptions are Draconic Re-invigoration and Dragons Edge armor pierce 35%. That's it. Zero damage procs. You're better off with a GS for raw damage addition. The only part where you have a little bit of a point is with rune-arm. The best rune arm in the game is from cove, it adds 2d8 and 2d10 which is 9 + 11 average damage for 20/swing. Hardly game breaking.

At the end of the day, they are adding a new feat line with 3 tiers like the other 2 fighting styles. It needs to be competitive with them for it not to be a waste of time to develop and implement them. This game will be better, not worse, if people taking those feats, can be as useful, albiet to one target, as your THF build is against multiple targets.

You keep saying make SWF a "versatile combination of the two" but what does that mean? AoE SWF? Multiple attacks? Right now there's two ways to melee, and both are best as BF for self healing because of squishyness. What if TWF wasn't so squishy, and still excellent single target damage? What if SWF was the highest damage, but the squishyest? Lots of melee builds are significantly altered in order to be able to constantly self heal. If part of your fighting style was appreciable damage mitigation like I'm proposing, TWF builds could be different, and not all centered Kensei Cetus builds with two instead of one large weapon in their hands.

There was no contradiction in anything I said, btw. I said there should be an order:
Single Target damage highest to lowest should be: SWF, TWF, THF.
Total damage dealt should be: THF, SWF, TWF (assumption that you are attacking more than 1 creature at points).
Most damage taken highest to lowest: THF (fighting multiple mobs, little mitigation, not counting for equipment or other build choices, strictly benefits from the fighting styles themselves), SWF because it would lack TWF's mitigation but also be single target engagement, TWF, because of baked in mitigation.

That's how I believe it should work. The mitigation and damage delta between SWF and TWF should be quite small if you wield 2 weapons. If you wield a weapon and a shield, you would do significantly less damage, but also take significantly less damage. This allows TWF to be a DPS destiny (best against single targets) OR a defensive S and B density which is needed and flexible.

I still don't believe you've really offered an alternative for SWF, or made a compelling argument for why it should be different however, other than your stated personal feelings for THF and your friends TWF builds.

[jakeelala]

Was hoping to see some feedback from the Lamannia guys on the tree but only see discussions on the SWF feat line.
Any has some good news (hopefully) about the tree?

The tree means nothing without SWF feats.

[Ralmeth]

I understand the desire to let people use any weapon type that they would like with the SWF feats, but I REALLY don't agree with this as a RL fencer. IMHO, the SWF feats should be restricted to those weapons that you could, well, actually fence with: rapier, long sword & scimitar (i.e. cutlass). When you SWF the weapon MUST have a bellguard or you will get your hand cut in half! Don't believe me? Try fencing in RL with a weapon that doesn't have a bell guard and watch how fast you get hit in the hand. Restrict SWF to these three weapons, put in combat animations that make it look like you are fencing when fighting SWF. Also I would change the bonuses from the SWF feats so that you use dexterity for to hit and damage, with bonuses from SWF based around this. Let SWF be focused on dex based, fencing builds! Yes, it will be niche, but it will make much more sense this way. Or just do whatever you have planned in your head, don't ever watch or try a real fencing match for inspiration / ideas, and just ignore me.

[jakeelala]

I understand the desire to let people use any weapon type that they would like with the SWF feats, but I REALLY don't agree with this as a RL fencer. IMHO, the SWF feats should be restricted to those weapons that you could, well, actually fence with: rapier, long sword & scimitar (i.e. cutlass). When you SWF the weapon MUST have a bellguard or you will get your hand cut in half! Don't believe me? Try fencing in RL with a weapon that doesn't have a bell guard and watch how fast you get hit in the hand. Restrict SWF to these three weapons, put in combat animations that make it look like you are fencing when fighting SWF. Also I would change the bonuses from the SWF feats so that you use dexterity for to hit and damage, with bonuses from SWF based around this. Let SWF be focused on dex based, fencing builds! Yes, it will be niche, but it will make much more sense this way. Or just do whatever you have planned in your head, don't ever watch or try a real fencing match for inspiration / ideas, and just ignore me.

one reason might be because neither single weapon nor swashbuckling means fencing.

[IronClan]

I understand the desire to let people use any weapon type that they would like with the SWF feats, but I REALLY don't agree with this as a RL fencer. IMHO, the SWF feats should be restricted to those weapons that you could, well, actually fence with: rapier, long sword & scimitar (i.e. cutlass). When you SWF the weapon MUST have a bellguard or you will get your hand cut in half! Don't believe me? Try fencing in RL with a weapon that doesn't have a bell guard and watch how fast you get hit in the hand. Restrict SWF to these three weapons, put in combat animations that make it look like you are fencing when fighting SWF. Also I would change the bonuses from the SWF feats so that you use dexterity for to hit and damage, with bonuses from SWF based around this. Let SWF be focused on dex based, fencing builds! Yes, it will be niche, but it will make much more sense this way. Or just do whatever you have planned in your head, don't ever watch or try a real fencing match for inspiration / ideas, and just ignore me.

Ah the SWF = Fencing argument. Sadly it's an argument that seems to have been invited by the Dev's when they put the cart before the horse, and came up with Swashbuckler tree concepts before ever designing the SWF feat line as its own entity with it's own reasons to exist. And so have hopelessly muddled the design by conflating it with Swashbucklers. SWF is not necessarily about whippy fencing swords. It should encompass numerous fighting styles and archetypes. The vast majority of weapon fighting in human history draws upon one weapon in one hand. Many expert sword fighters have posited that Two weapon fighting, while flashy, is actually just a good way to get killed faster. The exception being when the off hand is holding a weapon that is actually mostly defensive such as a parrying dagger (or a buckler or outright shield). The Katana is considered by many to be the ultimate evolution of the sword design and fighting technique (and BTW has no bell guard) and revolved around a single hand and a half weapon.

Sword and Shield formed the vast majority of single weapon fighting techniques, and every one handed weapon ever devised has been paired with a shield. Then you have Samurai, Gladiators, Ninja. Movie trope Pirates often use clubs, short swords, long swords, axes...

If you feel like considering SWF to be only about fencing please feel free to restrict yourself to only using Rapiers. Personally I doubt everyone is interested in being saddled with an unimaginative "fencing only" version of the feats, just because you took fencing lessons and your sense of propriety is offended.

SWF feat line needs fencing weapon restrictions just like just like the TWF feat line needs to cause everyone to the re-name their toon "Du'urden" and use Scimmitars.

No thanks...

[Cetus]

This was far more eloquently argued than your previous responses, you can't fault me for that. But I will clarify some things

thank you, but I'm afraid I need to continue to iron out a few more things...here we go:

It doesn't cheapen being a two-handed fighter. When you have 4 mobs in front you, and you cleave, and you hit them all, and you do glancing blow damage that is 60-100% of your normal damage, you are doing 300% (very roughly) MORE damage than you would to a single target. That's an ENORMOUS amount of extra damage.

Oh really? Ok, well then lets compare the front number damage of a thunderforged falchion (which is what I'm currently using - evidence in my videos) and a thunder forged bastard sword with all three of the respective feats on my build just as a test case:

Falchion Tier 3: 4.5[2d4] + 1.5W from Dance of Flowers + .5W dreadnaught + 1W Combat Brute (while boosted) = 15d4 = 75/2 = Average of 37.5 damage

Bastard Sword Tier 3: 4.5[1d10] + 3 W mentioned above = 7.5d10 = 82.5/2 = Average of 41.25 damage

Add the strength difference now:

Falchion:
I run an 80 str | This is a +35 modifier, with each modifier giving me 1.5 damage. So...35 * 1.5 = 52.5 Extra damage. Add that 52.5 to the calculated 37.5 average damage we get = 90

Bastard Sword:

We get 200% stat bonus from the feats, so each modifier gives 2 damage instead of 1.5. So....2 * 35 mod = 70 + 41.25 = 111.25.

Power Attack: gives +10 damage to falchion, +5 for bastard sword -

Kensei Enhancements: +4 damage for one hander, +6 for two hander

TOTAL: Falchion: 106 | Bastard Sword: 120.25

Now, on my build I have ITHF and Perfect Two handed fighting for total of 50% glancing blow damage. If I dropped ranged, picked up GTWF and all three SWF feats and proficiency, I would have a bastard sword that does 14.25 extra front number damage than my falchion, attacking an incredible 30% faster, with harder hitting glancing blows by at least 8 or so points just based off that calculation alone.

There are no other enhancements, feats, destiny abilities, or whatever that favor Two handers over the one handers (if you think I missed something, correct me). All I did was use my build as a test case to do a basic calculation that involves a base tier 3 TF weapon, my str mod, a few W bonuses from LD and twist, power attack, and kensei enhancement discrepancies. I missed a ton of additional damage boosting effects, but they'd just cancel out in the calc.

The only thing worth mentioning is the threat range difference between those two weapons - bastard sword is 2 less threat range than falchion, but the extra attack speed procs 30% more crits and more weapon effects, which in my opinion, trumps the 2 extra crit chance. Also don't forget sneak attack, which rolling 30% faster is very significant.

In the end, the only real advantage to THF is the swing distance - but I'd wager that single target, it would do better - unless I forgot something crucial - and I find SWF out DPS'ing THF insane.

In the system you suggest THF is simply just the best use of 3 feats, period. Anything that doesn't jive with that bothers you.

What the hell are you talking about? TWF makes amazing use of the 3 feats, even better than THF. I can afford to give up GTHF, you can never give up a TWF feat because the offhand proc chance is tremendous. This is nonsense.

You have made a small concession to TWF wielders saying they should have a small advantage on single targets, but only if they use high proc weapons.

A small concession? All I've been saying this entire time is that i think TWF should be better single target DPS. Stop trying to spin my position with modifiers such as "small" in your sentence. I also didn't say "only" if they use high proc weapons. I merely stated that a significant source of their extra DPS comes from their higher attack rate which procs more weapon effects and, also by the way, SNEAK ATTACKS by that same token.

Even if these ideas were the best possible ideas for those two fighting styles, they leave no room for SWF. And I have a shuriken thrower, almost NOTHING from TF weapons applies to main hand damage. The exceptions are Draconic Re-invigoration and Dragons Edge armor pierce 35%. That's it. Zero damage procs. You're better off with a GS for raw damage addition.

What? If I'm going to have a meaningful discussion with you, I'd appreciate it if you abandoned your aimless generalities. The thunder-forged weapon apply a massive W bonus and a +12 enhancement bonus to mainhand damage, FAR better than what greensteel offers. Why would you even mention greensteel here? The procs are worse, the base damage is worse, the enhancement bonus is worse, no slots. You can craft a thunderforged weapon that procs way more than GS. Do I have to convince you of this too?

At the end of the day, they are adding a new feat line with 3 tiers like the other 2 fighting styles. It needs to be competitive with them for it not to be a waste of time to develop and implement them. This game will be better, not worse, if people taking those feats, can be as useful, albiet to one target, as your THF build is against multiple targets.

You know, I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't need to be competitive with those other fighting styles. I'd see much more use out of it as a DPS supplement to a spellcasting cha based bard for instance, who can use CHA to damage and use the SWF feats to hold things with a high enchantment DC and beat them down.

I can see artificer's using a rune arm weapon combo with INT to damage by splashing bard perhaps

SERIOUS all out THF/TWF melee's should be way ahead than this SWF stuff. That's my opinion.

You keep saying make SWF a "versatile combination of the two" but what does that mean? AoE SWF? Multiple attacks? Right now there's two ways to melee, and both are best as BF for self healing because of squishyness. What if TWF wasn't so squishy, and still excellent single target damage? What if SWF was the highest damage, but the squishyest? Lots of melee builds are significantly altered in order to be able to constantly self heal. If part of your fighting style was appreciable damage mitigation like I'm proposing, TWF builds could be different, and not all centered Kensei Cetus builds with two instead of one large weapon in their hands.

See above for applications

A few more (some of these will absolutely suck - but ideas nevertheless

Intel based rogues with bard splash, get int to damage with uber assassinates, orb in off-hand

Dex based builds with bard splash and dex to damage - swashbuckling for bonus doublestrike if wielding finessable weapon

Lots more to come - its a versatile weapon style that can augment already uber builds with an additional tool - as I see it. It shouldn't out DPS two-handed fighters or TWF's.

There was no contradiction in anything I said, btw. I said there should be an order:
Single Target damage highest to lowest should be: SWF, TWF, THF.
Total damage dealt should be: THF, SWF, TWF (assumption that you are attacking more than 1 creature at points).
Most damage taken highest to lowest: THF (fighting multiple mobs, little mitigation, not counting for equipment or other build choices, strictly benefits from the fighting styles themselves), SWF because it would lack TWF's mitigation but also be single target engagement, TWF, because of baked in mitigation.

Really? You think SWF should be highest single target damage out there? Well...what can I say - if I haven't made you reconsider yet, I probably won't.

[jakeelala]

snip

there were a few misconceptions above but this is getting long winded and bogged down and they aren't terribly material at this point. I understand your position and I don't agree with it, but I feel it's relatively well argued. I just don't think it would represent as material or interesting an addition to the game in the form you're suggesting over the form I am suggesting.

Although we really wouldn't be that far out of agreement if they just limited it to finessable weapons, ie no 1 handers with Glancing Blow damage.

[jakeelala]

What? If I'm going to have a meaningful discussion with you, I'd appreciate it if you abandoned your aimless generalities. The thunder-forged weapon apply a massive W bonus and a +12 enhancement bonus to mainhand damage, FAR better than what greensteel offers. Why would you even mention greensteel here? The procs are worse, the base damage is worse, the enhancement bonus is worse, no slots. You can craft a thunderforged weapon that procs way more than GS. Do I have to convince you of this too?

This one needs clearing up. I am the author, in my Shuriken build, of an excellent and detailed quantitative analysis of TF vs Cormyrian throwers. I know exactly how much damage they do.

What you suggested before was that being able to off hand a TF orb or Rune Arm would somehow be especially advantageous to melee. I was explaining that no it wouldn't be, at all. TF don't make particularly good offhands for anything but casting. Rune Arms add a nice little bit of proc damage, but they are not game breaking amounts of damage.

If you were talking about something else pertaining to TF weapons, I missed that.

[Artagon]

Since this has turned into a SWF discussion, I wanted to put in my two cents on the actual feat balance. Mostly I've seen arguments about the overall effect, which I mostly don't have a problem with, but my real concerns are that the first feat in the line is just plain bad.

Let's look at them individually

Feat1: +10% attack speed
Feat2: +10% more attack speed + 50% more ability dmg
Feat3: +10% more attack speed + 100% more ability dmg

Call me crazy, but the first feat makes me wonder how SWF is going to feel around the TWF or THF party members at low levels. Once they get the second feat, it's a huge jump in DPS. One could argue that the SWF style should have an innate bonus that players get without the feats, ala the 40% innate off-hand chance of TWF without feats, or the Glancing blow chance + doubled PA + 50% additional str modifier of THF.

That being kept in mind, my suggestion would be to provide an innate +10% speed increase while SWF before feats, then adjusting the bonuses for feats as follows.

Feat1: +10% attack speed
Feat2: +05% more attack speed + 50% more ability dmg
Feat3: +05% more attack speed + 100% more ability dmg

This pushes the speed portion into the earlier levels to at least partially combat the bonuses of the other styles at those low levels.

[Cetus]

This one needs clearing up. I am the author, in my Shuriken build, of an excellent and detailed quantitative analysis of TF vs Cormyrian throwers. I know exactly how much damage they do.

What you suggested before was that being able to off hand a TF orb or Rune Arm would somehow be especially advantageous to melee. I was explaining that no it wouldn't be, at all. TF don't make particularly good offhands for anything but casting. Rune Arms add a nice little bit of proc damage, but they are not game breaking amounts of damage.

If you were talking about something else pertaining to TF weapons, I missed that.

First you mention greensteel, then you put up the cormyrian strawman?

Like I mentioned already, the offhand benefits are a guess. You can very well put armor piercing there, and put more dps in that tier on your mainhand. Mortal fear may act as a buff to your mainhand weapon, I don't know - but these are plausible possibilities worth testing.

if it works, then the benefits are spectacular - its up to you to recognize them and take advantage of their functionality if they exist.

[Cetus]

there were a few misconceptions above .

It isn't useful to say "there are problems but I won't say which ones there are". Claims like that need some evidence, and I'd be happy to see any errors I might have made, especially since it was a quick breakdown.

[HatsuharuZ]

Firstly, I like how it's laid out. Clearly whomever made this tree put a lot more thought into it than the person who made the other two bard trees.

Secondly, it needs some sonic spellpower in the tree itself. I dislike having to *need* to put points into spellsinger in order to maximize the damage potential of the sonic guards and weapon procs in swashbuckler. Please add some positive energy spellpower, too, if possible.

Thirdly, I don't like how the Insults cost spell points. Bards do not have as much in the way of spell points, and a melee bard will likely have even less. Having to use spell points to debuff enemies in order to make better use of CC abilities that require spell points to use is a bit wasteful. Especially since bards don't get any enhancements that lower the cost of metamagics.

Finally, I feel that evasion would be better as the 18th lvl core ability. That would let the player splash two other levels and still get the benefit of evasion while swashbuckling.

[Delacroix21]

I totally agree on this. More ability to damage isn't the way to go.

My suggestions:

- 1.5x ability damage when wielding just one weapon, be it ONE or TWO handed, to EVERYONE for FREE. This is logical and shouldn't require feats.
- let SWF feat line grant something else, i.e:
1. x% chance of double-proc of weapon effects, such as flaming (this would help balancing with TWF)
2. attack speed or doublestrike (if you use just one weapon, it would be logical to assume that you can swing it faster)
3. fortification piercing (focusing on precision, you can more easily pierce enemy's defences)

I didn't want (and still don't care for) the ability bonus but that's what the Devs chose. But all this whining about SWF ability bonus by certain people will only mean the Devs nerfing SWF into a more useless form then it is now. As it is now it's somewhat subpar but viable.


REMEMBER, Devs only "half"-read forums or skim, and hand out nerfs like candy. Be carefull with your rants on the ability bonus, focus on proposing alternatives instead!


Originally they proposed SWF to be out crits and fort bypass, and so I suggest they go back to that:

SWF 20% attack speed bonus, 15% fort bypass
Iswf 25% attack speed bonus, 30% fort bypass, +1 crit range
Gswf 30% attack speed bonus, 45% fort bypass, +2 crit range


This will make SWF about precise strikes and frequent crits (the attack speed is more because SWF is to slow to really play as a fencer etc.). The attack speed is front loaded as the crit bonuses come later. I wanted the combat styles to "feel" unique, and this does that.


I think the fighting styles should be defined as=
TWF= lots of hits
THF= heavy hits and aoe
SWF= lots of crits

[Zerkul]

Make it that adds intelligence to damage bonus up to your level. So modifier +5 INT and you're level 4 adds only +4 to damage. Make it also that doesn't work against sneak-attack/crits immune mobs. So you keep it in line with D&D.

No need to add a new weapon style that could mine the game balance once more with it's own interaction with the other ones. Swashbuckler prestige class already makes it appealing no need to complicate things further.

Especially you guys are forgetting about the influence of RuneArms can have on this new kind of style that can make easly it the best single target DPS around if you invest in both.





EDIT: As i suspected the THF line and SWF line interacts each other so if you use bastard sword you also have glancing blows damage making THF weapons just obsolete: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5332158 .

You guys by stepping into SWF are just going to ruin game balance it's very clear at this point. I'd keep this feat line quiet till it's finished because right now looks like the best option to go for everything.

[Eth]

What you suggested before was that being able to off hand a TF orb or Rune Arm would somehow be especially advantageous to melee. I was explaining that no it wouldn't be, at all.

150 Spellpower/ Dragon's edge/ Draconic Reinvigoration would be a pretty nice offhander for a melee. Not to forget two slots on it.