Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[jakeelala]

Yes it's simple... you can remove glancing blows by simply changing fighting style to S&B... With those data loaded on the Sheet the result is 1121.79 DPS which is pratically almost identical to THF.

We still don't know yet if S&B Feats works with Orb+Onehanded Weapon, in which case there's another thing we're leaving outside the equation.

Also don't forget you can use RuneArms and still get Higher DPS.

Then it's perfect. Because THF still gets the damage AoE, while SWF only gets it to 1 target. In fact, I think that makes SWF too low on the damage side of things, but at least people who are concerned like Cetus can see the actual number.

I assume your mean S&B feats referring to the ones that give Doublestrike when wielding a shield?

[Zerkul]

rapier has 0 glancing blows so I think you'r mistaken here.

It is though that's a Bastard Sword @ 1121 vs a Falchion @ 1180 with only 3 feat if he switches to a Rapier with only 3 feat the Rapier will come out ahead.

Yes, rapier comes out ahead with only 3 feats with 0 glancing blows.

Then it's perfect. Because THF still gets the damage AoE, while SWF only gets it to 1 target. In fact, I think that makes SWF too low on the damage side of things, but at least people who are concerned like Cetus can see the actual number.

I assume your mean S&B feats referring to the ones that give Doublestrike when wielding a shield?

Yes i'm referring to doublestrike feats. I hope they don't interact with orb+single weapon that would unbalance the things even more.

My personal opinion is still the same... i'd rather make SWF something more critical or alacrity oriented and put emphasis on precision rather than double bonus...

... Though Devs will decide, and we'll build accordingly.

NOTE: Anyway you guys should put your builds into it and check numbers... remember that the build inside calc sheet it's a Barbarian 18/clr1/ftr1.

[N-0cturn]

After seeing these calculations I have to say that I think it should not be possible to use both TWH and SWF feats with Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe. If you balance SWF to have a similar DPS as TWF and THF, the combination with glancing blows will always be on top. Soon there would be even more 12 Fighter, X Monk Builds, since most other builds could not afford the feats.

I also would prefer if the 2x Ability bonus would be replaced with something else. Otherwise it would favour high strength builds and dex/cha/int (Artificer, Swashbuckler) builds would suffer, as you can get Str a lot higher that any other ability. This is not what I would expect from a weapon style, that at least for me, should be about precise and deadly hits more that brute strength.

For a style perspective I would prefer a bonus to critical hits, however I can see that this could be hard to balance. A simple (and a bit boring) idea would be +1 damage per character level. That actually less damage than 2x Str for most builds (More that 66 Str).

Please keep the speed bonus. The animation for SWF is a bit annoying and I feel like the additional speed helps.

[Grailhawk]

rapier has 0 glancing blows so I think you'r mistaken here.

But it has a greater crit profile. Bastard swords with 7 feat is much better then Falchion or Rapier but it takes a lot to make that work. Rapier with 3 fest is greater then Falchion with 3 feat. Math is here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5329678

[maddmatt70]

WAIT . . . so it SURPRISES you that with the proposed SWFing stuff it's the best fighting style?

It should not really surprise the devs response. After the last employee cuts and developers getting moved to other Turbine products that they no longer run the numbers like they used to. In the swashbuckler thread there were several requests for numbers and data from the players. I am not quite sure on the accuracy of Zerkuls numbers , but it does make me excited to play my 12 fighter 6 paldin 2 monk dwarven axe fighter again. I can just run around without a shield and if I can use an orb and it counts for a lot of these bonuses I could actually be a tank build that does really high dps or just a striaght dps build of course.

[Thar]

If you want to know how this has been estimated take a look here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9L...it?usp=sharing .

This is an Excel Sheet i work on from time to time... Many Features on it (like Momentum Swing, Lay Waste, AutoCleave modes, etc.) are imperfect and may lead to estimation errors: for the example shown above i excluded all of them and simply used the base Auto Attack Mode, No Boosts and no particular class skills. The attack speed index are the ones from this post: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-and-Formulae . Sword & Board Attack Speeds are the same as One-Handed. I also took into account glancing blows on both weapon styles. It's 3 feats VS 6 feats + PTHF and PTWF.

If there are any errors and you can point me back i would appreciate.

_____________________________________________

Both are Frenzied Berseker Barbarians (Zavarthak is my Main) with endgame equipment. I've considered for Thunderforged Weapons: 1st Degree Burn 5d6 (no vulnerability), Dragon Edge, Crippling Fire. Also i've used Dragon Masque and considered a bunch of pastlives.

Oh no, that is over the 100 dps per sec limit. 1180 per sec? That is like furyshot all the time! Nerf bat coming! hahaha

[Tilomere]

I think swf will provide a vast variety of THF weapons and new variety to the game. On top of that, it will support detangling classes from monk splash handwraps or staffs, which everyone is in favor of.

[Hilltrot]

I understand the desire to let people use any weapon type that they would like with the SWF feats, but I REALLY don't agree with this as a RL fencer. IMHO, the SWF feats should be restricted to those weapons that you could, well, actually fence with: rapier, long sword & scimitar (i.e. cutlass). When you SWF the weapon MUST have a bellguard or you will get your hand cut in half! Don't believe me? Try fencing in RL with a weapon that doesn't have a bell guard and watch how fast you get hit in the hand. Restrict SWF to these three weapons, put in combat animations that make it look like you are fencing when fighting SWF. Also I would change the bonuses from the SWF feats so that you use dexterity for to hit and damage, with bonuses from SWF based around this. Let SWF be focused on dex based, fencing builds! Yes, it will be niche, but it will make much more sense this way. Or just do whatever you have planned in your head, don't ever watch or try a real fencing match for inspiration / ideas, and just ignore me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2ytz4o

RL fencing isn't that fun or that OP . . .

I like fantasy fencing better.

[Cetus]

If you want to know how this has been estimated take a look here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9L...it?usp=sharing .

This is an Excel Sheet i work on from time to time... Many Features on it (like Momentum Swing, Lay Waste, AutoCleave modes, etc.) are imperfect and may lead to estimation errors: for the example shown above i excluded all of them and simply used the base Auto Attack Mode, No Boosts and no particular class skills. The attack speed index are the ones from this post: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-and-Formulae . Sword & Board Attack Speeds are the same as One-Handed. I also took into account glancing blows on both weapon styles. It's 3 feats VS 6 feats + PTHF and PTWF.

If there are any errors and you can point me back i would appreciate.

_____________________________________________

Both are Frenzied Berseker Barbarians (Zavarthak is my Main) with endgame equipment. I've considered for Thunderforged Weapons: 1st Degree Burn 5d6 (no vulnerability), Dragon Edge, Crippling Fire. Also i've used Dragon Masque and considered a bunch of pastlives.

At a quick glance this looks good and completely confirms my point. Additionally, as you've mentioned, this lacks runearm/orb in off hand that will supplement your DPS, and in the case of your particular build you have two stacking power attack lines that favors THF, and the SWF STILL pulls ahead by a decent bit.

Because none of those effects are unique to off handing an orb. Action boosts are enhancements. Armor piercing matters for a limited number of mobs and can also go on a mainhand item.

Niether provides DPS. Both provide utility. Same like TWF and having two sets of weapon effects, except twf is better because its not just passive weapon effects.

Where's your evidence that it doesn't? You continue to stubbornly insist that having an offhand runearm or orb does nothing to boost the DPS of a swf feat. Stop it already.

You get a passive 35% armor piercing on a tier 2 effect. THAT isn't a DPS boost?

Boost Regeneration - passive - this isn't good either?

So can you take away glancing blows so we can see comparison of SWF vs. THF without the issue of glancing blows from Bastard sword? That seems to be the big concern/what makes the damage so much higher versus THF. The best parts of THF (glancing blows) should probably not be able to be combined with the best aspects of SWF (attack speed and 2.0x ability mod). That's not right.

Even Cetus and I would agree on that I think.

No? they shouldn't be combined? If I make a SWF DPS character, I'm getting both lines of feats - end of story.

So the issue is that a fighting style using 6 feats turns out more powerful than one using 3?

Are you gaining those additional feats by taking more Fighter levels? What is the opportunity cost?

The opportunity cost (for my build) would be to just simply drop ranged.

If you wanna play that card: "oh a style that uses 6 feats should be more powerful" then answer me this: Why doesn't THF or TWF also have 3 additional feats that make them more powerful? Why does SWF become the only fighting style with 6 feats that upgrade its DPS?

This fighting style is an INSULT to the existing well-balanced combat styles, and zerkul's preliminary calculations supported my point.

[Tilomere]

On a separate note, it would be great to have the SWF feats added to NW enhancement tree, which seems to lack. These would make fantastic core abilities.

[Scrabbler]

They should simply add a rule that Bastard and Waraxe are too big to work with SWF feats. (And instead allow those weapons to benefit from 1.5x strength 2x PA whenever your offhand is empty). That will get the complicating question about combined SWF+THF weapons out of consideration.

Even once that is done, it still might be the case that SWF with one-handers is too good compared to THF, because one-handed weapons can have crit profiles different and better than non-named two-handers.

[FlaviusMaximus]

At a quick glance this looks good and completely confirms my point.

Nothing says "quality control" like a quick glance.

I don't know if those numbers are valid or not, but this response post is the best example of a confirmation bias that I've seen in a long time.

In order for you to claim that I'm exhibiting a confirmation bias, you'd need to point out exactly the parts of his calculation that I'm ignoring which refute my position.

Looks like you haven't done that, so....

try harder?

You said you gave the post a mere "quick glance", but at the same time claimed that it "completely confirmed" your point. If you feel the term "confirmation bias" is being misused here then please substitute a different phrase that describes immediately latching onto data without analyzing it because it supports a personally held belief.

[jakeelala]

You get a passive 35% armor piercing on a tier 2 effect. THAT isn't a DPS boost?

Categorically, NO. It isn't a DPS boost. At least, not one one that is calculable within the context of the discussion or that is specific to SWF. It's specific to holding more than 1 thing. Which is a feature of both TWF and SWF. Also, It could go on a TF THF weapon and then it would also be moot. Last time I checked, TF weapons get 2 Red Augments? Last time I checked, the DPS of a Top Red Augment in a weapon like a falchion is 7dmg/hit for a non scaling lvl 28 or around 8dmg/hit/mob for a Meteoric Star Ruby. Not to mention, Dragons Edge is arguably the BEST DPS option for Tier 2 TF on a Two Hander like a falchion ANYWAY because it procs on Crit like mad with a Falchion. As opposed to NOT AT ALL on an Orb. So you would already have that in any reasonable scenario, AND a Red Augment to more damage with. GOSH.

I don't know how else to make you understand this.

Boost Regeneration - passive - this isn't good either?

Good? Yes. Please show me where I said Draconic Re-invigoration wasn't good. I said, and I reaffirm here: It is not DPS. DR only procs every 100 seconds, which means you should not have it on full time, because about 97% of the time it does NOTHING and takes the place of Mortal Fear (which is amazing). Therefore, if you want to regen action boosts, DO NOT CRIPPLE SWF as a fighting style. Just make a Falchion that has DR on it to swap to every 90 or so seconds to maximize your boosts. THATS WHAT I DO. I don't wield DR permanently in my off-hand, because IM WASTING DPS.

No? they shouldn't be combined? If I make a SWF DPS character, I'm getting both lines of feats - end of story.

Unless the devs change it before live. You shouldn't be able to get glancing blows if you have SWF feats. Which I've stated already in this thread. Or, because they are large and unwieldy, Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes should get a reduced benefit from SWF feats compared to finessable weapons. A la Doubleshot, and Repeaters vs. Non-Repeating Crossbows. Like say, 50% benefit of the feats vs. finessables (1.0x ability mod half the speed boost if bastard sword or daxe). Bastard sword fringe cases should not make SWF a bad system of feats only for magic prancing Bards, as you have suggested. It should just be balanced so it offers something for any melee build, just as TWF and THF do. That's fair, reasonable, and maximizes the utility of the Dev's time and effort.

The opportunity cost (for my build) would be to just simply drop ranged.

See Above.

If you wanna play that card: "oh a style that uses 6 feats should be more powerful" then answer me this: Why doesn't THF or TWF also have 3 additional feats that make them more powerful? Why does SWF become the only fighting style with 6 feats that upgrade its DPS?

It's not a card. It's a perfectly reasonable argument, albeit one I have not made yet in this thread. But so is the argument that it makes it so SWF is the only style with 6+ feats to improve it. That's a fair point. If there's syngery in SWF and THF, all the styles should be be able to be mixed syngeristically. But that will NEVER happen, so lets just not let SWF and THF mix. Or, mix in a reduced and controlled way to allwo for Bastard Swords/Dwarven Axes being worth an extra Exotic feat to take. As suggested above.

This fighting style is an INSULT to the existing well-balanced combat styles, and zerkul's preliminary calculations supported my point.

Not even going here.

[Cetus]

Categorically, NO. It isn't a DPS boost. At least, not one one that is calculable within the context of the discussion or that is specific to SWF. It's specific to holding more than 1 thing. Which is a feature of both TWF and SWF.

Interesting, now you add the modifier "categorically". is it really that important for you to "one up" me in this discussion? The evidence speaks for itself, and speculation should be labelled exactly this - speculation.

**I don't know** if offhand mutations on an orb will affect the mainhand weapon. Its amazing how difficult it is for people to admit limits in their knowledge. Anything I say with regard to orb/runearm adding to weapon damage is pure speculation right now, because I don't have any evidence that allows me to say it, therefore I don't know.

Having said that, IF they work, then we have this situation: 35% armor piercing on orb allows you to place an extra slot on your main hand weapon (because its a competing tier 2 upgrade) and slot an additional meteoric ruby, or some DR bypass, whatever. It gives you additional DPS options, regardless of how insignificant or marginal YOU might think they are. The bleeding damage only affects targets that are susceptible to bleeding (and I don't actually think it even works right now). You'd have to choose your combos depending on what you're fighting. At the very least, you can save a slot for repair 138 on your bladeforged characters to keep more DPS options on your main hand. Either way - its a DPS gain. If bleeding worked, then why not double up on the orb AND the bestard sword and get 2x the bleeding damage per crit? Either way, its more DPS.

You see, no matter how you cut it - the orb can be used to give you more combat-related benefit (IF they apply - again, I don't know)

Even if you choose to keep armor piercing on your mainhand, you STILL get regenerating boosts essentially for free on that orb - which is a very big deal. I actually have to consciously switch to my boost regenning weapon to take advantage of it, SWF would have it ALWAYS. This is a factual benefit, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, believes, what their name is, etc. Fact is fact.

"its specific to holding more than one thing" - ummm...yea, but you are absolutely avoiding the major distinction - you attack with both of the things you're holding when TWF, in SWF you attack with one of them, and it lands glancing blows, has a 30% faster attack rate, gets DOUBLE bonus from your main stat, AND **maybe** benefits from the orb in your offhand.

How don't you understand this difference? please - tell me where the disconnect is. I'm tired of repeating the same points because all you seem to care about is getting your recurring arguments across.

Also, It could go on a TF THF weapon and then it would also be moot. Last time I checked, TF weapons get 2 Red Augments? Last time I checked, the DPS of a Top Red Augment in a weapon like a falchion is 7dmg/hit for a non scaling lvl 28 or around 8dmg/hit/mob for a Meteoric Star Ruby. Not to mention, Dragons Edge is arguably the BEST DPS option for Tier 2 TF on a Two Hander like a falchion ANYWAY because it procs on Crit like mad with a Falchion. As opposed to NOT AT ALL on an Orb. So you would already have that in any reasonable scenario, AND a Red Augment to more damage with. GOSH.

How do you know that the dragons edge proc wouldn't double up with an orb in your off hand? Again, you don't know - and I don't either. I devote one of my red slots on my falchion to repair 138 on my bladeforged. At the very least, I get this moved over to the orb cancelling out the loss of one augment on my bastard sword. You don't find having the orb advantageous yet? Not to mention the regenning boosts.

In any case, do you even remember what your central point even is still?

I don't know how else to make you understand this.

Understand what?

Good? Yes. Please show me where I said Draconic Re-invigoration wasn't good. I said, and I reaffirm here: It is not DPS. DR only procs every 100 seconds, which means you should not have it on full time, because about 97% of the time it does NOTHING and takes the place of Mortal Fear (which is amazing). Therefore, if you want to regen action boosts, DO NOT CRIPPLE SWF as a fighting style. Just make a Falchion that has DR on it to swap to every 90 or so seconds to maximize your boosts. THATS WHAT I DO. I don't wield DR permanently in my off-hand, because IM WASTING DPS.

Well, you can repeat this as many times as you like. Thankfully, truth isn't arrived at by repeating the same bad argument. Have you ran EE temple? How about EE fire raid? Do you know how useful it is to have boosts regenning every 2 minutes so that I can boost up for trash spawns, beating down the center pillar, or burst damaging dragons?

You really don't think having a constant action boost regen doesn't contribute to your DPS in those situations? This is an awesome thing to have for free on an offhand orb. I suspect that you lack a bit of endgame melee experience if you're saying this.

Unless the devs change it before live. You shouldn't be able to get glancing blows if you have SWF feats. Which I've stated already in this thread. Or, because they are large and unwieldy, Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes should get a reduced benefit from SWF feats compared to finessable weapons. A la Doubleshot, and Repeaters vs. Non-Repeating Crossbows. Like say, 50% benefit of the feats vs. finessables (1.0x ability mod half the speed boost if bastard sword or daxe). Bastard sword fringe cases should not make SWF a bad system of feats only for magic prancing Bards, as you have suggested. It should just be balanced so it offers something for any melee build, just as TWF and THF do. That's fair, reasonable, and maximizes the utility of the Dev's time and effort.



See Above.


It's not a card. It's a perfectly reasonable argument, albeit one I have not made yet in this thread. But so is the argument that it makes it so SWF is the only style with 6+ feats to improve it. That's a fair point. If there's syngery in SWF and THF, all the styles should be be able to be mixed syngeristically. But that will NEVER happen, so lets just not let SWF and THF mix. Or, mix in a reduced and controlled way to allwo for Bastard Swords/Dwarven Axes being worth an extra Exotic feat to take. As suggested above.


Not even going here.

I don't mind these comments, all decent suggestions.


Answer me this question then:

What difference do you find in the DPS of two identical SWF characters, when one decides to wield something in their offhand (e.g., runearm/orb) and the other does not?

Simple question, answer it directly - try not to dance around it because that will get immediately noticed.

[Cetus]

Nothing says "quality control" like a quick glance.

I don't know if those numbers are valid or not, but this response post is the best example of a confirmation bias that I've seen in a long time.

In order for you to claim that I'm exhibiting a confirmation bias, you'd need to point out exactly the parts of his calculation that I'm ignoring which refute my position.

Looks like you haven't done that, so....

try harder?

[jakeelala]

On hit effects like on crit dragons edge Do not work on off hand. I have tf off hand weapons i use. I nake thrower builds which specialize in off hand procs. The only way it might is the druid bug with thrower procs on animal form fighting.

This isnt conjecture its just knowledge of major game mechanics.

Learn them, then argue.

[Cetus]

On hit effects like on crit dragons edge Do not work on off hand. I have tf off hand weapons i use. I nake thrower builds which specialize in off hand procs. The only way it might is the druid bug with thrower procs on animal form fighting.

This isnt conjecture its just knowledge of major game mechanics.

Learn them, then argue.

Lol - I said I didn't know. I thin kafter 8 years of playing a melee I have knowledge of MAJOR game mechanics. You seem butt hurt.

Does the armor piercing apply though?

Oh, you didn't answer the question at the end of my response.

[jakeelala]

Orbs do not currently provide damage in any form as an off jand.

Rune arms do add damage just like they do with xbows.

So i guess i think they should do the same as they do now. Which for orbs is none. Yes the armor pierce applies.

[FlaviusMaximus]

These numbers seem to support that on very high strength builds, the combination of SWF and THF feats would far outshine THF feats alone. While three additional combat feats taken should indeed result in higher DPS, if these numbers are to be taken seriously, the resulting higher numbers for the six feats together would be too high.

Perhaps THF and SWF feats should not be usable on the same weapon.

[NaturalHazard]

I thin kafter.

Be careful with your spelling errors mate.