End of the Week with Produktion Malphunktion- Spring cleaning edition

[SirValentine]

Because I never see it.

That's fair enough.

Because this is not a complaint that has reached my ears from the forums, or customer service in a while.

That, on the other hand, seems really hard to believe. A large fraction of the player base encounters it every day. I seem to see posts about it every week, at least.

[Ganak]

I was just making a generalization of 3 pillars of DDO that need work.

Of course there is. There are many different archetypes of players,the completionist, the explorer,the min/maxer the social butterfly exc, and MMO's attempt to cater to all of them.
I can't tell you what motivates you to play. It's different for all of us.
For example, I'm a social explorer. I pay some attention to my build, but it is not my primary focus. I love games that I can look in all the nooks and crannies, find little things, and preferably do it with a buddy or two. I want to see all the content.I want to make jokes on the way. I take my time, smell the roses, I actually read dialog sometimes.I rarely play for the reward. I play for the play. I also know that my motivations are rare, and not the norm for MMO players.

I'm also at times a completionist...but really depending on the game.
I'm also a PVP guy, but only in shooters, they were my first love.

Pen and Paper lore-yeah...nerd at heart. Very old school. I'm far more likely to go pull on the golden age of Gygax, Ron Moore and such than 3.5 lore. How good was that stuff? It can still be run today...and still be fun. I'm about to run a bunch of noobs on their first adventure into DnD. I'll be using Next, but I'm rebuilding Keep on the Borderlands-really this is the great gateway drug module.It's bad on so many levels, but it is still fun, and like a fun house. Works great for new folks that are not caring about story and stuff yet. If they like it, it will roll into Elemental Evil, something I've read but never run. Although...I did just buy the Dragonlance modules which I've never run either. Kenders...not sure I can run a world with Kenders.

Wow...really putting in the hours! Get some sleep man!


Appreciate the engagement, and thought this was a great thought. I'm a min/maxer/social wallflower/closet Halfling lover/griefer of friends, and can forget players play for many reasons.



Me, I'd really like to see Gnomes and a new Prc with a FOM dismissal and Ubergrease SLA, kill steal action boost and zerg toggle.

[Wizza]

It's true you're spending less time in the quest but you might get the item a week later than you would otherwise. Sure, you can just do other quests while waiting for the ransack timer run out, but there are times when I need a specific item in order to make my gear layout work - those times I'll be ransacking on EE and not on EN.

It's still not worth it. You will be spending tons of time on a quest when you could be doing something different, be it farm for another piece of loot, XP, raids, whatever. Farming on EE when EN has the same loot is simply not worth the effort nor the time. And let's not forget, if you want an item THAT badly (never my situation), you can eTR or even buy it.

I was speaking about all quests in general.

There are no quests but HH with this system. MotU items are so outdated that it is not even worth talking about those. The only thing left is raids and you will truly understand my point if you start talking about EE Wyrm or EE Thunder peak. Those raids are BRUTAL on EE. If you want an item from those, you just farm them 20 times on Normal, even if you are ransacked with the horrible drop rates the items have. There is, again, no point in running these raids on EE. AT ALL. Who wants to do a 1-2h raid to be rewarded with ML26 loot? Even the random generated loot stinks out of those raids on EE.

I completely agree that there should be a more significant difference in the amount of rewards when doing EE, I just think we need to have all the facts in mind first.

I do have all the facts in mind. The facts are that there is no EE endgame at the moment. E3BC's loot will be farmed in the first weekend by elite players and powergamers on EN. If the XP is good, it will be farmed on EN or EH as well for eTRs. Favor? The first run will be on EE and that's it.

At this rate, why should we keep an EN/EH/EE difficulties' tiers? Let's go back to the old Epic pre-MotU because really, there is no reason for EE to exist at this point.

So, in this case, you still want more loot, just not for yourself. My point stands. You don't run for the challenge. You run for the loot. And there is nothing wrong with it.

Nop. You don't understand. I like the challenge but I like MORE to be rewarded for that challenge. Now, whatever I'll do with that loot is up to me, sorry Running merely for a challenge becomes dull after the 3rd time. Oh since you don't believe me, we were doing EE Deathwyrm even before we knew that +6 Tomes were supposed to drop in there but got bored after 5-6 runs. Now we run it cause it's challenging AND we hope, poor us, that some of us will pull a tome someday.

[EllisDee37]

If the double log thing is still happening plz share. I'm under the impression it is fixed.

It is "fixed" in the sense that the players (wanesa, specifically) came up with a fix for themselves in the form of the preloader.

Without the preloader, it is very much a problem. The reason you don't see much outrage is because every time it's mentioned, we link the preloader for the person having the problem.

While us veterans have managed to find a workaround, it is quite an embarrassing, high profile problem with your game.

[Sebastrd]

Good ideas. I'm a huge fan of out of the box items that are not just DPS. The artifact system in 'the other game' is cool. Healing item, a portable store..there is a ton of places they can go there.

Some guildies and I were discussing this kind of thing yesterday. One of them suggested making the EN or EH version of loot BtC, while making the EE version unbound.

[dunklezhan]

I was just making a generalization of 3 pillars of DDO that need work.

Of course there is. There are many different archetypes of players,the completionist, the explorer,the min/maxer the social butterfly exc, and MMO's attempt to cater to all of them.
I can't tell you what motivates you to play. It's different for all of us.
For example, I'm a social explorer. I pay some attention to my build, but it is not my primary focus. I love games that I can look in all the nooks and crannies, find little things, and preferably do it with a buddy or two. I want to see all the content.I want to make jokes on the way. I take my time, smell the roses, I actually read dialog sometimes.I rarely play for the reward. I play for the play. I also know that my motivations are rare, and not the norm for MMO players.

I'm also at times a completionist...but really depending on the game.
I'm also a PVP guy, but only in shooters, they were my first love.

Pen and Paper lore-yeah...nerd at heart. Very old school. I'm far more likely to go pull on the golden age of Gygax, Ron Moore and such than 3.5 lore. How good was that stuff? It can still be run today...and still be fun. I'm about to run a bunch of noobs on their first adventure into DnD. I'll be using Next, but I'm rebuilding Keep on the Borderlands-really this is the great gateway drug module.It's bad on so many levels, but it is still fun, and like a fun house. Works great for new folks that are not caring about story and stuff yet. If they like it, it will roll into Elemental Evil, something I've read but never run. Although...I did just buy the Dragonlance modules which I've never run either. Kenders...not sure I can run a world with Kenders.

You just described me - which is pleasing and worrying at the same time given how odd I appear to be...

Nice insight into who you are though - I'm curious as to how much of an uphill battle your minions have when it comes to convincing you of a course of action which does not gel with your own preferred playstyle?

Don't get me wrong - I actually have every confidence that you are open to being convinced of alternative views having seen how you engage with us, but I'm just interested to know more about the process. Do they have to sit you down from time to time and say 'look boss, you're just wrong about this, I promise you no-one cares if that secret room is thematically supposed to be there, the **** dungeon needs another shrine and it doesn't need another puzzle to get into it, ok?', or do they have to write a formal business case, or what?

[Sebastrd]

Challenge without proper reward = not fun. Not hard to understand.

What Cetus said. How many EE HH you see on your servers nowdays? The answer is: 1. Per day. Maybe. You will notice a tons more on Normal or Hard. Why? Because it's faster and loot is the same as the elite version.

The challenge is its own reward. You'll never see many LFMs for EE runs, and that's the way it should be. Not everyone is capable of running EE, and when a player reaches the point that they can manage it, it should feel like an accomplishment. Special EE-only loot makes EE feel like a requirement, and it shouldn't be.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Is there any plans to make iconic better. They are all lacking a littleand could use a little boost

Yes, bladeforged in particular. The negative heal amp is crippling. It's obvious most people play them for the challenge.
The shadar-kai ability to almost always sneak attack making assassinate so much more reliable really crimps their usefulness as rogues.
And while PDKs do make some of the best paladins and bards, swords are just so "sword and sorcery".
I think those sun elves might be pretty good, but whenever I run with one, everything is blinded so I can't really see what's up.

/end ironic tone.
I believe that if you find the iconics underpowered, you should try some other builds that take advantage of their strengths. IMO, they are a bit OP, Sun elf probably the least so, but I have not personally played one so I have a poorly informed opinion there.

[CaptainSpacePony]

The challenge is its own reward. You'll never see many LFMs for EE runs, and that's the way it should be. Not everyone is capable of running EE, and when a player reaches the point that they can manage it, it should feel like an accomplishment. Special EE-only loot makes EE feel like a requirement, and it shouldn't be.

I agree.

[geoffhanna]

I think someone just doubled the total number of producer posts in the history of the game

Either that or PMal sneezed on his iPhone and a couple dozens posts came out.

Or both?

Nice.

[Wizza]

The challenge is its own reward. You'll never see many LFMs for EE runs, and that's the way it should be. Not everyone is capable of running EE, and when a player reaches the point that they can manage it, it should feel like an accomplishment. Special EE-only loot makes EE feel like a requirement, and it shouldn't be.

It's a reward, the first three times. Then it gets dull and boring. This is why we need a reason to run EE other than the challenge.

EE loot is not a requirement. Why else would it be if you just run EN? You can play that difficulty naked and still faceroll it. If we have no reason to run EE, might as well go back to the old Epic difficulty. It just makes more sense.

[Azarddoze]

Special EE-only loot makes EE feel like a requirement, and it shouldn't be.

Care to explain? I'm trying but I can't justify any way to see it that way. A requirement for what? You already beat the toughest challenge.

Edit: It's one thing to make statements that would indeed be true to other MMOs but it doesn't mean they are the same for DDO. Sure, lots of game would make me feel like the best loot is a requirement, just not this one. But a candy for doing something 10x harder than the previous difficulty... sounds fair.

A special reward for EE can be seen as an incentive for people to progress and eventually aim for it as well. It gives a goal, wether or not you're looking to get there.

So yeah, it's all about how we see it and most will see it the way it cannot harm them or give any advantage to other... kinda sad.

[azrael4h]

Has to be xp or items take your pick

To quote the Bandit on why to do something, it is "For the money (loot), for the glory (xp), and for the fun. Mostly for the money."

Quite frankly, content should aim for two of three, with the fact that fun is both subjective (I have fun turning my car sideways and drifting around in it, as well as running auto cross and road courses. A few dates, judging from the vomit, do not share this same interest) and will fade after a few (thousand) completions in a grindy mmo like DDO, kept in mind. It should also keep in mind rambling, disjointed sentence structure.

The only raid IMO that nailed it was the Shroud. You always work toward something, so long as you can complete a part or two. The myriad ways you can build GS items, some of which are still useful years and level cap increases later means the loot is still worth it to some in the commoner levels, and all who hang around the better designed (IMO, again) Heroic level game. And it was fun, with aspects of just about everything except Mario (covered more than enough in Coal Chamber to flag) and Escort (covered more than enough in Ritual Sacrifice to flag) and long swims (covered far far more than enough in Shadow Guard to account for the entire game until the world ends in fire and brimstone). Shroud is still fun for a quick run, worth it for the loot, and if you do it near enough at level (my guild intends to, though the amount of content out there means our static TR is actually doing heroic stuff at 20+ because we hit the wall first), xp is worthwhile.

If I were designing an MMO, I would probably have the best stuff under crafting systems, similar to the Shroud, with effects available that everyone can use. This eliminates problems like CitW not having anything worth taking a blue bar into for, or DQ really not being run anymore except for Torcs. Named items would exist, but would not be as flexible as crafted, nor as useful when the crafted gear is optimized. But I would do this from the start, not ad hoc it in years later in a semi-working state, with several partially completed systems competing.

On the double log in, everyone in my guild has it. I think we all use an alternate launcher now, since the Netsession debacle (I certainly do, I haven't touched the official launcher since it tried to install that mess) and I don't know if the preloader works with that. I can also point out that several people do not play because they installed, and saw the Netsession garbage trying to install, and stopped over that, and a few more who stopped after starting because of the poor log in set up and the immense lag. Both are costing Turbine money.

[dopey69]

Just wanted to chime in on the double - login thingie. Neither myself, or my two guildies have ever had it. We all live in Australia, none of us run the game from SSD or Flash drive, or use pre-loader. I would suspect that a lot of people who don't have the issue don't go looking for threads on the issue to not complain in, so the perception regarding it's frequency is likely skewed by the fact that only those to whom it matters (as in, those affected) will comment on it, usually

qft

west coast Canada never a problem no ssd

after reading some of these posts I know why anyone from turbine that comes on to the forums to "communicate " soon stops posting

[Lauf]

the developers are fine with the comm drop rate. Epic hard At level. Looking at raw data, most people run EH over level. It makes a difference.
Im not going to write a book on some of this. Varaguille has discussed the comm thing...all the way down to the math. Yes, the biggest xp/m quest is not optimal for comms.

obviously we're not going to agree on the amount of coms needed, so let me try a different approach.

originally the decision was made to let higher level quests drop more coms than lower ones so that people already at cap won't have to re-grind 20-28 (xp wise) in order to get enough for a heart.

I believe it has been reasonably long enough since their release to assume that goal has been achieved.

what I would suggest is making quests give coms based on how close you are to the level of the quest.
so a level 21 toon running a level 21 quest will receive as much as a level 28 running a level 28 quest.

why is this beneficial?
smoothing out the curve would help people who enjoy leveling (as I do ) by rewarding them the same amounts as people who prefer to sit at cap.

IMO it is far better than having half the player base with more vcoms than they know what to do with while the other half of the player base doesn't have any.

[Sebastrd]

EE loot is not a requirement. Why else would it be if you just run EN? You can play that difficulty naked and still faceroll it. If we have no reason to run EE, might as well go back to the old Epic difficulty. It just makes more sense.

Care to explain? I'm trying but I can't justify any way to see it that way. A requirement for what? You already beat the toughest challenge.

If it exists in the game, players will want it. They will feel that they haven't "completed" the game until they have it. The bottom line is that to fully enjoy the game, some folks have to have everything. I see nothing wrong with that, and I'm fine with people being able to acquire all loot without ever stepping into EE (though I'm also fine with them having to spend a lot longer getting their loot).

Other players like to feel like special snowflakes and want a clear line drawn between themselves and the unwashed casual masses. To them, the best loot should be reserved only for the elite few so they can feel special. I do have a problem with that.

[knightgf]

I was just making a generalization of 3 pillars of DDO that need work.

Of course there is. There are many different archetypes of players,the completionist, the explorer,the min/maxer the social butterfly exc, and MMO's attempt to cater to all of them.
I can't tell you what motivates you to play. It's different for all of us.
For example, I'm a social explorer. I pay some attention to my build, but it is not my primary focus. I love games that I can look in all the nooks and crannies, find little things, and preferably do it with a buddy or two. I want to see all the content.I want to make jokes on the way. I take my time, smell the roses, I actually read dialog sometimes.I rarely play for the reward. I play for the play. I also know that my motivations are rare, and not the norm for MMO players.

I'm also at times a completionist...but really depending on the game.
I'm also a PVP guy, but only in shooters, they were my first love.

Pen and Paper lore-yeah...nerd at heart. Very old school. I'm far more likely to go pull on the golden age of Gygax, Ron Moore and such than 3.5 lore. How good was that stuff? It can still be run today...and still be fun. I'm about to run a bunch of noobs on their first adventure into DnD. I'll be using Next, but I'm rebuilding Keep on the Borderlands-really this is the great gateway drug module.It's bad on so many levels, but it is still fun, and like a fun house. Works great for new folks that are not caring about story and stuff yet. If they like it, it will roll into Elemental Evil, something I've read but never run. Although...I did just buy the Dragonlance modules which I've never run either. Kenders...not sure I can run a world with Kenders.

Very interesting. I am relieved to hear that the developers do try to make more than loot a focus for playing DDO. I will agree that I tend to be a social explorer as well, it's always fascinating to look around the nooks and crannies for the sake of adventuring. And like you, I only prefer PvP in shooters (Preferrably old school shooters), everything else just totally sucks. Thanks for your reply!

[Wizza]

If it exists in the game, players will want it. They will feel that they haven't "completed" the game until they have it. The bottom line is that to fully enjoy the game, some folks have to have everything. I see nothing wrong with that, and I'm fine with people being able to acquire all loot without ever stepping into EE (though I'm also fine with them having to spend a lot longer getting their loot).

Other players like to feel like special snowflakes and want a clear line drawn between themselves and the unwashed casual masses. To them, the best loot should be reserved only for the elite few so they can feel special. I do have a problem with that.

The point is: it's actually the reverse. Trying to farm loot on EE that is the same as EN takes MUCH LONGER and it is MUCH HARDER than EN or even EH.

And why do you people keep making generalization? We don't want EE loot to "feel special". We want EE loot to have a reason to actually run a quest on EE for a long term. Loot is the right incentive for elite players. They want to be rewarded for the challenge, they don't want to feel special at all.

It doesnt have to be uber. Draconic Soul Gem is a fine example. It rewards people for running tough quests but yet it is by no means a "requirement", a "must have", an "overpowered item".

[Qhualor]

If it exists in the game, players will want it. They will feel that they haven't "completed" the game until they have it. The bottom line is that to fully enjoy the game, some folks have to have everything. I see nothing wrong with that, and I'm fine with people being able to acquire all loot without ever stepping into EE (though I'm also fine with them having to spend a lot longer getting their loot).

Other players like to feel like special snowflakes and want a clear line drawn between themselves and the unwashed casual masses. To them, the best loot should be reserved only for the elite few so they can feel special. I do have a problem with that.

strawman

[Azarddoze]

If it exists in the game, players will want it. They will feel that they haven't "completed" the game until they have it. The bottom line is that to fully enjoy the game, some folks have to have everything. I see nothing wrong with that, and I'm fine with people being able to acquire all loot without ever stepping into EE (though I'm also fine with them having to spend a lot longer getting their loot).

Other players like to feel like special snowflakes and want a clear line drawn between themselves and the unwashed casual masses. To them, the best loot should be reserved only for the elite few so they can feel special. I do have a problem with that.

You know, I was gonna make a very very long post but i'll keep it as short as possible:

- Diversity (some people play 1 hour a day and other 12+). Free world, can't they have something more to thrive for? Will the ones playing 30 mins per week that can't even realistically achieve x or y thing should restrain the other one that could from getting it? Same as should the ones that don't give a **** about EE because it's "just for elitist" have anything to say about that one difficulty?
- Effort vs reward

Effort / time invested should always be rewarded WHATEVER THE MOTIVES ARE. It's not because someone wants to show his trophies that it negate the effort and time invested.

Simple analogy to back this up: You're middle class, 15 years old and surrounded by rich people but you want to prove them that you can be just as good. So you study, work your ass off and get there. Now you get your shiny house and car and get to show them how well you're doing financially. Was your motive good? Not by my standard but it's frigging legit way. We're not gonna disallow people to progress through lives because of their motives, right?


Now what totally cracks me up is how the hell did we get from only one epic difficulty that would totally divide the player base gear wise to OMG you can't have +1 DC on that loot even though I personally never would need it to complete EH while it would help in EE. Oh yeah and you'll have to work for it also.

Total BS.


The problem lies within with your misconception that there are obviously no people that are totally honest about playing EEs only because EH is a facerolled difficulty. It's impossible that some people have been playing video games for 20+ years, MMOs for 15+ years and DDO for 8+ years and that they simply got good enought and fed up by what's a walk in the park, right? But since there are also new players in the mix up, let just dumb down everything to the lowest denominator.

Once again, total BS to unallow anything for the sole reason of "Some only wants to feel special".

Welcome to the carebear family.


Late edit : The fact that EEs, while being many times harder than EH, are soloable with the same gear that you use for EH... Just that in itself seems wrong and leads inevitably to the facerolling of EH. And of course, avoiding EEs because "it's human nature" to take the easiest route if there are no reason not to. Just as it's the human nature to want everything even though they might not "deserve" it.